Great Barrington Declaration, lets get back to Cruising!!

[nomad098]

17 minutes ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

First, I never implied anyone was a "wacko".

Second, did you really go back six months (if not more) to find when the CDC was not recommending masks?  You understand knowledge changes over time,  right?  

 

I think part of the problem is people were given mixed messaging from the beginning.

 

They saw people on the Diamond Princess with all the necessary PPE and infections carried on long after the normal isolation period, people also hear about people contracting the virus in hospitals even though staff have all the PPE, I don't think people have come to terms with that this virus is nearly as good as the norovirus at contact contamination. The washing of hands and the proper application and removal of a mask are just as important as wearing a mask if not more so.

 

Wearing a mask only lowers the risk it does not negate the risk that is done better by social distancing.

 

On a different note I was looking into different methods of doing rapid testing for covid-19 similar to the system they have at Heathrow airport, this would certainly help cruising to restart, another one I have been looking at is based on the fluorescence of the virus and a imaging computer could give a result in about 5 minutes. Just goes to show the old saying is true "Necessity is the mother of invention" or something like that.

 

 

[time4u2go]

8 minutes ago, yogimax said:

I thought just about everyone knew that masks are meant to protect others, with a smaller degree of protection for the user?

I was thinking the same thing.  Apparently not.

[Charles4515]

5 hours ago, TheMastodon said:

Yes, people will die in a pandemic.  It’s a pandemic.   
 

I’m trying to figure out why I can’t wear a mask and visit a none essential business (perhaps a clothing retailer or electronics store for ex) if masks work.  Masks work so why can’t those people stay open?

 

 

They are open here at limited capacity if a mask is worn. I have been inside an Apple Store and department store in the last few weeks. But everyone around here is well behaved. None questions the mask requirement. Covid cases have been at a plateau for weeks. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Charles4515

[compman9]

9 hours ago, broberts said:

 

I did not claim that millions might die from covid-19 in the UK. Recall the post was addressing posters in both the US and UK. To date some 44.3 thousand people have died in the UK.

 

The UK has had occasion to have a debt to GDP ratios over 200%. It has generally managed to recover in less than 3 generations. 

 

You seem to be arguing that some majority of the population and the economy can motor along as it has in the past. Not being affected by covid-19 and the efforts by all the unfortunates to stay reasonably healthy. Pure fantasy.

 

You need to read the post I was replying to once again and try to defend your comments without incredible hyperbole

 

However, if you think it's okay to lumber three generations of people with a GDP deficit of over 200%, I can assure there is no way in a million years we will ever agree on anything we might raise in this debate

[Bloodgem]

10 hours ago, nomad098 said:

On a different note I was looking into different methods of doing rapid testing for covid-19 similar to the system they have at Heathrow airport, this would certainly help cruising to restart, another one I have been looking at is based on the fluorescence of the virus and a imaging computer could give a result in about 5 minutes. Just goes to show the old saying is true "Necessity is the mother of invention" or something like that.

Stoke on Trent is piloting a test where you get your results in 20 minutes.

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/stoke-trent-chosen-pilot-super-4632889

[johnjen]

On 10/22/2020 at 9:14 AM, S.A.M.J.R. said:

I know you're in the UK, and if anyone in another country wants to answer, feel free, but exactly what "liberty" is being restricted by requiring masks?  I really don't get the argument.

 

For as long as I can remember, stores have had signs that say "no shirt, no shoes, no service".  No one ever complained.  So business CAN require you to wear shirts & shoes, but not masks?

 

The "state" (ie: legally) forces you to wear some kind of clothing when out in public.  So do those who think the government shouldn't be able to force you to wear masks shouldn't be able to force you to wear clothing?     

We're all being spoofed into believing masks actually PREVENT or THWART covid. They don't. All we're doing is virtue signaling everyone else, saying, "look at me, I respect your health." It's silly. And, overrated.

[time4u2go]

1 hour ago, johnjen said:

We're all being spoofed into believing masks actually PREVENT or THWART covid. They don't. All we're doing is virtue signaling everyone else, saying, "look at me, I respect your health." It's silly. And, overrated.

You really think masks don't do anything?  Do you have any sources to back that up?

[yogimax]

1 hour ago, johnjen said:

We're all being spoofed into believing masks actually PREVENT or THWART covid. They don't. All we're doing is virtue signaling everyone else, saying, "look at me, I respect your health." It's silly. And, overrated.

I see you are from Virginia.

 

Do you think 170,000 cases and 3524 deaths are as "overrated" as the need to wear masks.

 

Ah, never mind, if you think wearing a mask is "silly and "overrated," you will not believe any of the horrid facts of COVID.

[crewsweeper]

 

6 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

You really think masks don't do anything?  Do you have any sources to back that up?

Masks, ALL masks,  even N-95s, get damp from breathing. Takes about 20 minutes.  Then they are less effective.  Most masks have larger airholes than the CV-19 droplets.  Most people don't change masks or clean masks frequently enough.

You might reduce your spread of CV-19 if you are a carrier, by reducing the distance droplets flow out of you.  But a soiled or damp mask isn't going to stop the droplets from a carrier reaching you if within 6-8 feet.

Short term contact without a mask is probably ok as it takes at least 5 minutes of contact with a carrier within 6-8 feet in a less ventilated space.  A mask extends that.

Unless a carrier directly sneezes or coughs on you when walking by.  you're not likely to catch it, mask or no mask. Outside, unless cheek to butt in a crowd, mask don't really do anything.

 

[time4u2go]

4 minutes ago, crewsweeper said:

 

Masks, ALL masks,  even N-95s, get damp from breathing. Takes about 20 minutes.  Then they are less effective.  Most masks have larger airholes than the CV-19 droplets.  Most people don't change masks or clean masks frequently enough.

You might reduce your spread of CV-19 if you are a carrier, by reducing the distance droplets flow out of you.  But a soiled or damp mask isn't going to stop the droplets from a carrier reaching you if within 6-8 feet.

Short term contact without a mask is probably ok as it takes at least 5 minutes of contact with a carrier within 6-8 feet in a less ventilated space.  A mask extends that.

Unless a carrier directly sneezes or coughs on you when walking by.  you're not likely to catch it, mask or no mask. Outside, unless cheek to butt in a crowd, mask don't really do anything.

 

I know masks are not 100% effective. I was responding to someone that said they do nothing at all.

Edited October 23, 2020 by time4u2go

[crewsweeper]

2 minutes ago, yogimax said:

I see you are from Virginia.

 

Do you think 170,000 cases and 3524 deaths are as "overrated" as the need to wear masks.

 

Ah, never mind, if you think wearing a mask is "silly and "overrated," you will not believe any of the horrid facts of COVID.

People have gotten CV-19 even wearing masks.

And look at the number of cases.  So many are false positive. Yet they don't count the negative tests.  Nor do they count the recoveries, or people testing positive but 2 days later testing negative.  And look at the total population.  What % has gotten the virus?  Versus regular flu?  Yes CV-19 is deadlier than the flu and early on there wasn't a lot of treatments or understanding of the virus.  Now we have meds, quarantine times are dropping, ICU times are dropping, deaths are dropping, infections for people over 55 are dropping. Once a vaccine is approved and distributed, these will drop further.  But until the virus mutates out of existence, don't expect herd immunity. 

 

[Roger88]

58 minutes ago, crewsweeper said:

People have gotten CV-19 even wearing masks.

And look at the number of cases.  So many are false positive. Yet they don't count the negative tests.  Nor do they count the recoveries, or people testing positive but 2 days later testing negative.  And look at the total population.  What % has gotten the virus?  Versus regular flu?  Yes CV-19 is deadlier than the flu and early on there wasn't a lot of treatments or understanding of the virus.  Now we have meds, quarantine times are dropping, ICU times are dropping, deaths are dropping, infections for people over 55 are dropping. Once a vaccine is approved and distributed, these will drop further.  But until the virus mutates out of existence, don't expect herd immunity. 

 

I totally agree with you. Mask has nothing to do with virus spreading. It doesn't help.. or even if does its so insufficient.. These masks can even be dangerous cause they are not supposed to be worn outside and stuff. They get dirty pretty quick and collect the bacteria around. 

[yogimax]

1 hour ago, crewsweeper said:

People have gotten CV-19 even wearing masks.

And look at the number of cases.  So many are false positive. Yet they don't count the negative tests.  Nor do they count the recoveries, or people testing positive but 2 days later testing negative.  And look at the total population.  What % has gotten the virus?  Versus regular flu?  Yes CV-19 is deadlier than the flu and early on there wasn't a lot of treatments or understanding of the virus.  Now we have meds, quarantine times are dropping, ICU times are dropping, deaths are dropping, infections for people over 55 are dropping. Once a vaccine is approved and distributed, these will drop further.  But until the virus mutates out of existence, don't expect herd immunity. 

 

This is from Johns Hopkins...

 

Yesterday's data (10/23/2020)
NEW CASES: 71,671
DEATHS: 856

 

71,671 new cases yesterday does not indicate we have "turned the corner."

 

[yogimax]

"If 95% of Americans wore masks in public, more than 100,000 lives could be saved from Covid-19 through February, a new modeling study suggests.

 

The study -- from the Covid-19 forecasting team at the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation -- notes that, in September, only about 49% of US residents reported that they "always" wear a mask in public."

[yogimax]

Sorry, double post

Edited October 23, 2020 by yogimax

[Roger88]

5 minutes ago, yogimax said:

"If 95% of Americans wore masks in public, more than 100,000 lives could be saved from Covid-19 through February, a new modeling study suggests.

 

The study -- from the Covid-19 forecasting team at the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation -- notes that, in September, only about 49% of US residents reported that they "always" wear a mask in public."

This is exactly what I am talking about. The mask is not helping in the spread of the virus. It only makes it even worst cause it collects all the bacteria and stuff and then you breath with it the entire day. Its even dangerous to wear in my opinion 

[TheMastodon]

6 minutes ago, yogimax said:

"If 95% of Americans wore masks in public, more than 100,000 lives could be saved from Covid-19 through February, a new modeling study suggests.

 

The study -- from the Covid-19 forecasting team at the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation -- notes that, in September, only about 49% of US residents reported that they "always" wear a mask in public."

 

[S.A.M.J.R.]

24 minutes ago, Roger88 said:

This is exactly what I am talking about. The mask is not helping in the spread of the virus. It only makes it even worst cause it collects all the bacteria and stuff and then you breath with it the entire day. Its even dangerous to wear in my opinion 

Can you please post your background so we know why we should trust your opinion?  What studies you have examined?  

 

31 minutes ago, yogimax said:

"If 95% of Americans wore masks in public, more than 100,000 lives could be saved from Covid-19 through February, a new modeling study suggests.

 

The study -- from the Covid-19 forecasting team at the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation -- notes that, in September, only about 49% of US residents reported that they "always" wear a mask in public."

Stop using science!  You know that has no place in this discussion! 🤣

[nomad098]

4 minutes ago, TheMastodon said:

 

 

Did you not know you cannot use Sweden as an example or you will be accused of being in support of eugenics, pro-virus or even a Nazi. I have no idea why pointing to facts makes you any of these things but according to some on this thread it does.

 

Back to the OP's debate not the misleading arguments some are trying to push with the efficacy of masks, yes masks work but come with their own inherent risks.

 

An interesting piece though biased in favour of the GDB but brings up some interesting points about scientific discourse and the production of evidence on both sides. What is more interesting is who is behind each of these arguments. Both are bad but one of them is much much worse than the other.

https://www.anhinternational.org/news/showdown-great-barrington-declaration-v-john-snow-memorandum/

[TheMastodon]

2 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

Did you not know you cannot use Sweden as an example or you will be accused of being in support of eugenics, pro-virus or even a Nazi. I have no idea why pointing to facts makes you any of these things but according to some on this thread it does.

 

Back to the OP's debate not the misleading arguments some are trying to push with the efficacy of masks, yes masks work but come with their own inherent risks.

 

An interesting piece though biased in favour of the GDB but brings up some interesting points about scientific discourse and the production of evidence on both sides. What is more interesting is who is behind each of these arguments. Both are bad but one of them is much much worse than the other.

https://www.anhinternational.org/news/showdown-great-barrington-declaration-v-john-snow-memorandum/

Its because they are Sheep and don’t think for themselves.  They are just scared and that’s okay.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/italy-did-everything-right-to-stop-a-second-wave-of-the-coronavirus-so-what-went-wrong

 

Virus goin to virus 

Edited October 23, 2020 by TheMastodon

[nomad098]

51 minutes ago, yogimax said:

"If 95% of Americans wore masks in public, more than 100,000 lives could be saved from Covid-19 through February, a new modeling study suggests.

 

The study -- from the Covid-19 forecasting team at the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation -- notes that, in September, only about 49% of US residents reported that they "always" wear a mask in public."

 

19 minutes ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

Stop using science!  You know that has no place in this discussion! 🤣

 

But it's not a very good or reliable science, time and time again these models have proven to be wrong in relation to this virus. It's also controversial apparently 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/09/04/909783162/new-global-coronavirus-death-forecast-is-chilling-and-controversial

 

"in September, only about 49% of US residents reported that they "always" wear a mask in public."

 

From my observations 99% wear a mask where they should, 80% wear a mask correctly and around 40% wear a mask all the time. Not scientific just observational

[S.A.M.J.R.]

2 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

From my observations 99% wear a mask where they should, 80% wear a mask correctly and around 40% wear a mask all the time. Not scientific just observational

My observation is ~90% wear a mask where they should. Of those, maybe 60% are wearing them correctly.  Whether it's "all the time", how would anyone know that? 

[nomad098]

27 minutes ago, TheMastodon said:

Its because they are Sheep and don’t think for themselves.  They are just scared and that’s okay.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/italy-did-everything-right-to-stop-a-second-wave-of-the-coronavirus-so-what-went-wrong

Virus goin to virus 

 

Interesting article when you consider Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte stood in front of his parliament earlier this year and declared that "if lockdown continues the country would die"

 

Also interesting to note that many European leaders have been in touch with Anders Tegnell the person who orchestrated Sweden's response to covid-19  

[crewsweeper]

In Italy, it appears that a lot of the recent rapid test throw off false positives, or picking up "pre-symptomatics".  The Costa cruise ship that had a spat of cases last week, I think, saw all of the rapid test positives turn negative with the molecular/PCR test.  I'm not sure just how many people have contracted the virus from "pre-symptomatics".  Or if contract tracing has drawn any firm conclusions.  It's the assumption that the virus is contagious from a carrier even if the carrier doesn't know they have the virus.  This has been a fairly stable  infectious disease heuristic for all types of viruses.    Again, once a vaccine is available and medical care improves, the likelihood of more people catching the virus or getting mortally ill will drop.

 

 

[broberts]

1 hour ago, TheMastodon said:

Its because they are Sheep and don’t think for themselves.  They are just scared and that’s okay.

 

Odd logic, "people are sheep because they don't think as I do".