Great Barrington Declaration, lets get back to Cruising!!

[Billy Baltic]

53 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

Also interesting to note that many European leaders have been in touch with Anders Tegnell the person who orchestrated Sweden's response to covid-19 

Is there a source for this? I didn’t hear it reported. 

[time4u2go]

1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

Also interesting to note that many European leaders have been in touch with Anders Tegnell the person who orchestrated Sweden's response to covid-19 

Are they asking him what to do, or what not to do?  Can you provide more information about this?

[nomad098]

6 minutes ago, Billy Baltic said:

Is there a source for this? I didn’t hear it reported. 

 

1 minute ago, time4u2go said:

Are they asking him what to do, or what not to do?  Can you provide more information about this?

 

It was a BBC tv news report,  Boris Johnson was mentioned by name, governments of Spain and France were named as well as "other European leaders" with no name or country. I've tried to find a link but cannot find one, I did find one from Channel 4 but it only mentions the UK.

https://www.channel4.com/news/boris-johnson-sought-advice-from-sweden-over-covid-strategy

[yogimax]

4 hours ago, Roger88 said:

This is exactly what I am talking about. The mask is not helping in the spread of the virus. It only makes it even worst cause it collects all the bacteria and stuff and then you breath with it the entire day. Its even dangerous to wear in my opinion 

Kyrie Eleison!

[cruising sister]

Masks work! Those of us exposed to Covid-19 on a daily basis know it to be true. We all don’t have N95 masks so don’t use that excuse. Just wear one and we will all be better off. 

[mayleeman]

Masks aren't perfect and have some drawbacks. From these facts, the posters here seem to have diverged into two lines of thinking:

 

1) wear a mask anyway because anything that helps is worth doing, or

 

2) don't wear a mask and make fun of the people who do.

 

Okay, calling the second one "thinking" may be a bit generous.....

 

I just don't get the idea of not trying to do something the facing the greatest infectious threat in 100 years. Let's say masks only are 60% effective, or even 30%. When there is no alternative available, isn't that worth trying?

 

 

[Merion_Mom]

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/covid19-cough-clouds-and-how-they-travel-in-closed-spaces-mapped/?fbclid=IwAR1ZX7aLvkZq70WAc58f0lWCNRKEZ6PG_xUj9OIB5AXxvMhRwVHYeHJOJ1M

[123funcruiser]

I´ve not read this entire thread and to be honest I won´t.

 

But I´ve a few thoughts for all the mask denials, even though I know it won´t change much.

 

How many of you who say masks are not sufficient and even dangerous will want to go into surgery with the knowledge that the surgical team will breathe, sneeze, cough into your open wound without any mask protection? It is the same you do to others in this covid-pandemic with others by not wearing masks.

 

I wonder how many of those being anti-mask are also in the group of non-smokers and arguiing how the smokers are inconsiderate to others as they exhale smoke and kill others who have to breathe their second-hand smoke? Well if you don´t wear a mask, you as inconsiderate, as the air you exhale without a mask is much more likely to infect and kill others vs. your exhaled breathed going through a mask. So how many are accusing smokers but don´t do others the favor of mask wearing?

[A&L_Ont]

15 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

 

It was a BBC tv news report,  Boris Johnson was mentioned by name, governments of Spain and France were named as well as "other European leaders" with no name or country. I've tried to find a link but cannot find one, I did find one from Channel 4 but it only mentions the UK.

https://www.channel4.com/news/boris-johnson-sought-advice-from-sweden-over-covid-strategy

Unfortunately Sweden is sorry that they took the approach that they did, and would have changed aspect knowing what they do today about Covid. 

[123funcruiser]

17 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

...

 

Also interesting to note that many European leaders have been in touch with Anders Tegnell the person who orchestrated Sweden's response to covid-19  

 

Not quite sure why you think this is interesting. To me it doesn´t really says much.

 

To me this is more like a standard procedure. If you are facing a new situation like this where no one has any experience, you start looking for best practice examples and to find those you have to look at the good ones as well as the bad ones. You have to take a look at bad practice examples as well as only that will make you find a good strategy. Having to find out what to do you need to find out what not to do as well.

 

In the end I don´t know if they talked to him or not, but it doesn´t seem like (m)any of the European countries adopted the Swedish system.

 

 

 

[jean87510]

From what I have been reading re Sweden, the cases increased to a total of 90000 with almost 6000 deaths in a population of 10000000.  This is from the beginning. I didn't see anything with preexisting conditions. I like these odds as well as South Dakotas with 37000 plus cases and 356 deaths out of 884000. Again, no indication of preexisting conditions. I wish the US had done this from day one but protected the weak and elderly.

I wear masks because I have to for work and my state requires for inside activities. I think its a useless rule if you arent changing your mask each time or washing the cloth ones. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by jean87510

[nomad098]

1 minute ago, A&L_Ont said:

Unfortunately Sweden is sorry that they took the approach that they did, and would have changed aspect knowing what they do today about Covid. 

 

The Swedish government have openly admitted their failings and have opened a public inquiry into them.

 

Yes there is a minority of Swedish scientists, doctors and people who would prefer to follow the rest of the world but a small percentage.

 

But you failed to mention that Sweden would have taken the same approach as they did but with more emphasis on protecting the vulnerable if the knew then what they know now.

 

All governments have made mistakes an example here in Wales £166 million to build emergency hospitals for what turned out to be 35 and 48 patients depending which report you read. How many lives would that money have saved if it was pumped into hospitals and/or care homes. They have now spent £33 million on expanding a hospital because they cannot afford to keep some of the emergency hospitals available

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52752976

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-54339932

 

Vulnerable patients were transferred from hospitals to care homes without any testing in the UK which may have caused the deaths of thousands of vulnerable people.  

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-care-homes-discharge/

 

This is a novel virus and lots of mistakes were and are being made by many countries. But based on the present data Sweden is managing better now than most of the rest of Europe.

 

 

 

[A&L_Ont]

13 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

But you failed to mention that Sweden would have taken the same approach as they did but with more emphasis on protecting the vulnerable if the knew then what they know now.

I was waiting for to to say “prove it” and then I was going provide articles that state exactly what you said. They failed to protect the elderly, and that is what the head of the Swedish program is regretting.

 

The Swedes did not do it perfectly, even they admit it. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by A&L_Ont

[A&L_Ont]

13 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

This is a novel virus and lots of mistakes were and are being made by many countries. But based on the present data Sweden is managing better now than most of the rest of Europe.

 

Agreed.  That being said, not until it is all said and done will anyone know which was truly the right approach.

[nomad098]

7 minutes ago, 123funcruiser said:

Not quite sure why you think this is interesting. To me it doesn´t really says much.

To me this is more like a standard procedure. If you are facing a new situation like this where no one has any experience, you start looking for best practice examples and to find those you have to look at the good ones as well as the bad ones. You have to take a look at bad practice examples as well as only that will make you find a good strategy. Having to find out what to do you need to find out what not to do as well.

In the end I don´t know if they talked to him or not, but it doesn´t seem like (m)any of the European countries adopted the Swedish system.

 

Interesting when you consider the bigger picture, Prime Minister Boris Johnson spoke with Anders Tegnell and Professor Sunetra Gupta before breaking ranks with the governments own SAGE advice to implement a full lockdown for several weeks, instead implementing a local approach to managing the crisis.

 

Whether these conversations had an impact on Boris Johnson's or anybody else's decision is not known

 

Upto now only Ireland in Europe has instructed a national lockdown similar to March though regional lockdowns are similar else where. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54596783

[nomad098]

5 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

Agreed.  That being said, not until it is all said and done will anyone know which was truly the right approach.

 

This is very true and even Anders Tegnell has said this. He also pointed out that his approach is very much a Sweden only approach based on numerous data points and may well not work outside of Sweden.

[broberts]

3 hours ago, jean87510 said:

...but protected the weak and elderly.

 

Very easy to write but nearly impossible to do. Certainly extremely expensive to implement. At least one in five Americans falls into a high risk group. The vast majority live in households that include low risk people. 

 

Everyone has to adjust their lifestyle, not just those with high risk factors.

[jean87510]

2 hours ago, broberts said:

 

Very easy to write but nearly impossible to do. Certainly extremely expensive to implement. At least one in five Americans falls into a high risk group. The vast majority live in households that include low risk people. 

 

Everyone has to adjust their lifestyle, not just those with high risk factors.

I had to do this for my dad when he had leukemia. He would actually wear a mask when we would come over. We never visited if we were sick. I do home health visits on the weekends and Ive noted a majority of the families are careful with their loved ones. I think it can be done of course not 100% which nothing ever is. 

[TheMastodon]

23 hours ago, broberts said:

 

Odd logic, "people are sheep because they don't think as I do".

 

We are all not created equal.  

[broberts]

1 hour ago, TheMastodon said:

 

We are all not created equal.  

 

Really? Wonder where I read this?

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, ..."

[jean87510]

All animals are created equal but some pigs are more equal than others

[Billy Baltic]

6 hours ago, broberts said:

 

Very easy to write but nearly impossible to do. Certainly extremely expensive to implement. At least one in five Americans falls into a high risk group. The vast majority live in households that include low risk people. 

 

Everyone has to adjust their lifestyle, not just those with high risk factors.

Agreed. It’s very complex but the people who claim we just need to shield the vulnerable disappear when this is discussed. 
Within my immediate work group all the people are low risk. All are under 50 years of age and in apparent good health. However, one has a pregnant wife. That makes her vulnerable. Another has a child with asthma. That makes the child vulnerable. Another has a wife who is on immunosuppressants due to severe psoriasis. That makes her vulnerable. 
So what do the people who subscribe to the GBD say is the solution for these people. Are they suggesting their whole families live in a bubble? 

[John Reid]

3 hours ago, jean87510 said:

All animals are created equal but some pigs are more equal than others

 

Eric Blair/George Orwell seems to be relevant to many aspects of American society these days.

"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it."

 

[dogs4fun]

On 10/23/2020 at 12:13 PM, S.A.M.J.R. said:

Stop using science!  You know that has no place in this discussion! 🤣

🤣

[Bloodgem]

11 hours ago, Billy Baltic said:

So what do the people who subscribe to the GBD say is the solution for these people. Are they suggesting their whole families live in a bubble? 

Try asking Maureen Eames. 

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-south-yorkshire-54632619

 

Here is a link to her follow up interview:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-south-yorkshire-54632619