Cruise ships worst nightmare - fire

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

The fire boundaries were extended outboard to include the balconies, which meant redesign of the partitions.  The fire crews could not get from one balcony to the next, so this is why the balcony partitions are made to open (not for passenger comfort, contrary to CC wisdom).  The partitions and furniture must be fire resistant, or there must be a fixed sprinkler on the balcony.  I think that's it. Could be more on the general fire response systems and procedures, it's been a while since I reviewed the report.

 

That's my recollection as well.

 

If a fixed system is not included, which can't be hi-fog, all partitions, furniture, deck materials, etc must be Flag/Class approved fire resistant, with a total fire load below the limit for those spaces. As you know, fire resistant stuff still burns, just more slowly, but from attending a number of type approval burn tests, they still give off lots of smoke.

[TheOldBear]

14 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Of course there will be an investigation, that is what the entire ISM culture is about, and not assigning blame, but finding ways to prevent it from happening again.

 

While I would not have recommended this practice, just from my experience, it would not be unheard of, marine engines are run all the time with no one about.  Most ships, other than cruise ships, operate with unmanned engine rooms for 16 hours each day.

How are lifeboat / tender engines cooled during these tests?

 

I recall that a Navy mother whale boat had a very limited time between starting, and in the water. 
We also had a firehouse to water inlet connector, but I never recall using it.

 

[chengkp75]

Yes, "fire resistant" or "fire retardant" plastics give off the most noxious and blackest smoke I've ever seen.  Most of it is designed to just "smolder", which as incomplete combustion, gives off more smoke than the hottest fire.

[chengkp75]

Just now, TheOldBear said:

How are lifeboat / tender engines cooled during these tests?

 

I recall that a Navy mother whale boat had a very limited time between starting, and in the water. 
We also had a firehouse to water inlet connector, but I never recall using it.

 

Sorry, losing track of what responses I've given to what threads on this.  The engines are fresh water cooled, with the fresh water loop going from the engine to a "keel cooler" (on the outside of the bottom of the boat), where it is cooled by seawater, indirectly (fresh water inside the tubes of the cooler, sea water around the tubes, and back to the engine.  They can be run for many minutes with just the air cooling the keel cooler.  Sometimes you are limited on the amount you can turn the propeller, as the shaft bearings are water cooled, but the engines can be run without turning the prop.

[Heidi13]

38 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

I wouldn't think there would have been a fire party standing by - but I also wouldn't think there would be a process where lifeboat engines were started and left to run by themselves.  

 

I assume there will be follow-up reviews of procedure - possibly determining precise cause.

 

When the planned maintenance schedule required testing the L/Boat engines, we routinely did all of them, which on the older ships could be 24 boats. We would start at the first boat, start her up, monitor it for a few minutes, then move on to the other boats.

 

As the Chief indicated, once a diesel is running the risk of issues is low probability. Even on the large high speed Ro/Pax I commanded, we had no Engineers in the engine rooms, with the Chief Engineer having a control console on the Bridge.

 

The company will hold an investigation and will amend the SMS, as required. In addition to internal reports, the Master must also complete a Flag State Shipping Casualty Report, so the Flag State will also conduct an investigation.

[ColeThornton]

8 minutes ago, TheOldBear said:

How are lifeboat / tender engines cooled during these tests?

 

I recall that a Navy mother whale boat had a very limited time between starting, and in the water. 
We also had a firehouse to water inlet connector, but I never recall using it.

 

 

"Navy Motor Whaleboat".    🙂

[TheOldBear]

42 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

 

"Navy Motor Whaleboat".    🙂

I hate auto-corrupt 😕

[navybankerteacher]

3 minutes ago, TheOldBear said:

I hate auto-corrupt 😕

As do we all -  but sometimes the absurdities give pause for thought:   from where else could little whaleboats come?

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, "fire resistant" or "fire retardant" plastics give off the most noxious and blackest smoke I've ever seen.  Most of it is designed to just "smolder", which as incomplete combustion, gives off more smoke than the hottest fire.

 

Same result with the 80/20 wool blend carpet we did a Flag State burn test. It initially flashed across the surface, then smouldered, giving off great amounts of smoke. The plastics I have completed similar tests, smouldered, but never had actual flames, again the smoke because of incomplete combustion was unbelievable.

 

Back in the early 2000's we had to conduct many of these tests, as we were unable to provide Flag with approval documentation on many materials already installed on the ships. It certainly replicated the amount of smoke generated during the early fire-fighting courses that I attended.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

It certainly replicated the amount of smoke generated during the early fire-fighting courses that I attended.

Yes, definitely competed with burning tires for the all time most puke-producing smoke.

[Heidi13]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, definitely competed with burning tires for the all time most puke-producing smoke.

 

Yes, especially on day 1, when you had no SCBA. Certainly dispelled any future thoughts of fighting fire without BA's.

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Yes, especially on day 1, when you had no SCBA. Certainly dispelled any future thoughts of fighting fire without BA's.

We went into a room where they were burning tires underneath, with just a "gas mask", then remove it and sing the first verse of the National Anthem at the top of your lungs, before they would let you out.

[Heidi13]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

We went into a room where they were burning tires underneath, with just a "gas mask", then remove it and sing the first verse of the National Anthem at the top of your lungs, before they would let you out.

 

Our introduction included being advised that we were completing in 4-days what firemen learned in a number of months, and the pass criteria was being alive at the end of the course.

 

We had a brief walk through without fires, then they filled it with smoke. Didn't get an exercise over command, the doors were opened and firemen in SCBA's grabbed each of us and literally threw us outside coughing and puking.

 

Did we get the point - you bet we did - 45 yrs later, I still remember it lke yesterday.

[ontheweb]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The fire boundaries were extended outboard to include the balconies, which meant redesign of the partitions.  The fire crews could not get from one balcony to the next, so this is why the balcony partitions are made to open (not for passenger comfort, contrary to CC wisdom).  The partitions and furniture must be fire resistant, or there must be a fixed sprinkler on the balcony.  I think that's it. Could be more on the general fire response systems and procedures, it's been a while since I reviewed the report.

Thanks, all of those changes make sense.

[rkacruiser]

5 hours ago, ontheweb said:

What specific changes occurred after the Star Princess fire other than a ban on smoking on balconies? Was there a change in the furniture on balconies making it more fire resistant? Anything else?

 

From the viewpoint of a previous Star Princess guest prior to the fire:  the verandas had a mesh plastic covering the bare metal of the veranda.  I have read the report that was produced after the investigation was done.  I recall that type of flooring contributed to the fire.  Have not sailed on Star Princess since, but I assume that plastic covering would have been replaced with something more fire resistant.  

 

Also, guests on all cruise ships with verandas are warned not to leave towels, bath suits, etc. on their veranda.  Cabin Stewards, I have been told, are instructed to check the verandas during their twice a day servicing of the stateroom and remove any items that are on the veranda that ought not to be there.  

[donaldsc]

1 hour ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Our introduction included being advised that we were completing in 4-days what firemen learned in a number of months, and the pass criteria was being alive at the end of the course.

 

We had a brief walk through without fires, then they filled it with smoke. Didn't get an exercise over command, the doors were opened and firemen in SCBA's grabbed each of us and literally threw us outside coughing and puking.

 

Did we get the point - you bet we did - 45 yrs later, I still remember it lke yesterday.

 

You and ChengP are quite a pair.  Glad that the 2 of you are on CC.

 

DON

[chengkp75]

52 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

 

You and ChengP are quite a pair.  Glad that the 2 of you are on CC.

 

DON

Nothing a couple of old salts like better than sitting around swapping "can you top this", unless it is with a few cold ones fueling the "discussion".

[clo]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

That's why fire prevention is more important than fire fighting.

On land and sea. When we lived at Lake Tahoe we had "defensible space" requirements. Mandatory. I'm sure many situations have something similar with a different name.

[MBP&O2/O]

Yes I too remember the training!

A four day MN Officers firefighting course at Speke Airport.

Eyebrows were collateral damage.

Goodness me it was hard work .... we used a metal box in lieu of a ships hold. They put a couple of large trays full of burning oil inside. Access via the top into something like Dante invented 😁

[Heidi13]

5 minutes ago, MBP&O2/O said:

Yes I too remember the training!

A four day MN Officers firefighting course at Speke Airport.

Eyebrows were collateral damage.

Goodness me it was hard work .... we used a metal box in lieu of a ships hold. They put a couple of large trays full of burning oil inside. Access via the top into something like Dante invented 😁

 

I did mine at your neck of the woods at South Shields. If memory is right, it was down on the waterfront, along with the Seamanship Centre & Radar simulators.

[Heidi13]

43 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Nothing a couple of old salts like better than sitting around swapping "can you top this", unless it is with a few cold ones fueling the "discussion".

 

Oh! so true, especially with hopped beverages involved.

[TheOldBear]

1 hour ago, MBP&O2/O said:

Yes I too remember the training!

A four day MN Officers firefighting course at Speke Airport.

Eyebrows were collateral damage.

Goodness me it was hard work .... we used a metal box in lieu of a ships hold. They put a couple of large trays full of burning oil inside. Access via the top into something like Dante invented 😁

I had the practical parts of damage control and firefighting during US Navy “refresher training”, at of all places Guantanamo Bay Cuba back around 1980. One of the training aids was the “USS Buttercup” a section of a decommissioned warship. It could be set on fire, filled with CS gas, flooded or submerged as needed for ‘today’s lesson’. 

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Nothing a couple of old salts like better than sitting around swapping "can you top this", unless it is with a few cold ones fueling the "discussion".

And to many of us it is a rare privilege to be able to listen to you two swap stories.😊

[rkacruiser]

15 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And to many of us it is a rare privilege to be able to listen to you two swap stories.😊

 

100% agree!  I have learned so much on CC on various forums!

[clo]

6 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

100% agree!  I have learned so much on CC on various forums!

I was thinking earlier about what an education this thread has been. Thanks all.