No more cruises with NCL. Mandatory Vaccines?

[Navis]

3 minutes ago, Laszlo said:

Funny you should mention HIV. My friend Katalin Karikó who was instrumental in developing mRNA and will most likely get Nobel Prize for it started out with HIV. She is now putting a lot of work into cancers

 

 

The study was absolutely fascinating! All the work, testing, adjusting, retesting that has been going on for years. Another piece of the study includes some compelling advocacy for creating a culture of industry corporation and information sharing. The researchers say that because all the walls are coming down for this “all hands on deck approach” to dealing with COVID researchers are able to learn from each others’ success. The HIV team said working with Moderna likely shaved years off their work.

 

 

[Laszlo]

54 minutes ago, Navis said:

The study was absolutely fascinating! All the work, testing, adjusting, retesting that has been going on for years. Another piece of the study includes some compelling advocacy for creating a culture of industry corporation and information sharing. The researchers say that because all the walls are coming down for this “all hands on deck approach” to dealing with COVID researchers are able to learn from each others’ success. The HIV team said working with Moderna likely shaved years off their work.

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/health/coronavirus-mrna-kariko.html

[Navis]

10 minutes ago, Laszlo said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/health/coronavirus-mrna-kariko.html

What a great story! Thank you for sharing 

[nomad098]

20 minutes ago, Laszlo said:

Funny you should mention HIV. My friend Katalin Karikó who was instrumental in developing mRNA and will most likely get Nobel Prize for it started out with HIV. She is now putting a lot of work into cancers

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Navis said:

As many have said, no one if forcing anyone to do anything ... the choice is up to each of us. But none of us are free from the consequences of the decisions we make.

 

Some of what you say however is already being taken into consideration. About recovered COVID patients for example, in the countries that are requiring vaccines, they exempt anyone who has fully recovered within the last 90 days of the date of their departure.  Why is that, you might ask? Because of the actual detail in these reports and studies rather than just the headlines (none of which are as key catching as “6 month immunity with vaccination.”  
 

Actually read the whole studies across the world and see that they actually say ... the immune response generated by the vaccine is far to superior and has a lower decay rate than natural immunity. Tests run on blood samples of people with natural immunity and vaccine immunity (with roughly the same date of infection/injection) show that natural immunity wanes much faster and is much more narrow than the mRNA vaccines.

 

Here’s the other kicker ... studies have shown that natural immunity is also effected significantly with the introduction of variant strains! Look at the studies on the impact the vaccines on the UK and South African variant (haven’t seen any on the Brazilian variant yet). With respect to vaccines, they are for sure less effective (roughly 80% effective rather than 94%), but they still work at preventing all death and serious disease and at 80% are enough to maintain herd immunity (if and when reached).  Natural immunity has proven not to work that way ... they estimate at best 50% against variants and unknown impact on deaths and hospitalizations (they don’t have the data on prior infections yet).  So, unless you get reinfected with the same variant you are again rolling the dice.
 

As I mentioned in another thread I think, I went back and forth on whether I should get vaccinated ... I’m in my 40s and thankfully in good health so i’m it even eligible yet, but I have decided I will for many reasons, all of which my primary care physician brought to my attention:

 

1) mRNA vaccines are not really new ... they have been in development for over a decade now. They only difference here is the message. (The analogy he gave me was to think of it as the industry has been working on a proven safe envelope for years .. they are only modifying the paper inside the envelope for COVID). He emphasized to me that these are not in any way, shape or form, gene editing

 

2) mRNA is a fundamental aspect of human existence as our cells receive literally billions of them a day

 

3) The risk of actual infection from an mRNA vaccine is non existent while the risk for other forms of virus based vaccines is not high but it is not zero either

 

4) mRNA vaccines promote broad-based immunity that has shown to so far provide more than adequate protection against current variants and that such protection is far superior to strain specific natural immunity.

 

5) it is true that any possible long term side effects of mRNA vaccines remain unknown, but he cautioned me to weigh that against the emerging long term side effects for a meaningful portion of of those who have recovered. He has seen some very debilitating side effects that have lasted over 9 months now.

 

Also, he sent a link to a recent article that hasn’t received much attention that was really very exciting. It talks about how mRNA has been research for years as a possible cure for HIV (as we know, the issue with HIV has always been that it mutates at and astronomical rate and can’t be pinned down through traditional vaccine approaches). Anyway, these researchers began meeting with Moderna folks while they were working on their COVID vaccine. They worked together to modify the message and ran some tests and studies and it looks like this mRNA vaccine is very promising for HIV as well! My doc added at the end: “the way to think of traditional vaccines vs mRNA vaccines is when the body becomes infected the immune system ‘takes a picture’ and remembers that virus for future defense. Change the picture and you alter the impact the immune system has in the key period while the virus duplicates in your body. mRNA is more like ‘stem cell’ immunity. Rather than taking a picture or the virus, it recognizes all the colors in the picture and crates immunity against the colors.”

 

This is all a long-winded way of saying we each get to make our own choice,  it we should make it with all the facts available. Whatever everyone decides I hope we all remain safe and healthy and I look forward to reading all your trip reports from future cruises! Be they on NCL or another line.

 

Having had my first dose of AZ and my wife having had both doses Pfizer vaccine and the kids all up to date with theirs I understand and support the use of vaccines and the need to create new ones however some people seem to overlook some of the realities of the situation in the pursuit of getting back to normal.

 

Katalin Karikó according to her papers is well aware that synthetic mRNA can and does cause poor autoimmune response outcomes that can kill some people, this is why the synthetic mRNA is placed in a lipid envelope developed by Katalin Karikó, though she has found a way to make this safe it is totally reliant on correct storage, transportation and end administration and correct usage of the vaccine. Don't shake the vial as this can release the synthetic mRNA from the lipid.

 

In various studies for mRNA cancer treatment, death from an autoimmune response from experimental synthetic mRNA treatments was noted and reported in most studies.

 

Natural mRNA has been known since DNA was unravelled, synthetic mRNA  used in the last 10 to 15 years depending which papers you read, no vaccine has ever been created using this technology, Moderna tried to create a Zika vaccine and failed all other uses of synthetic mRNA have been for experimental treatments not vaccines.

 

Natural mRNA and synthetic mRNA can be used to help alter genetics and epigenetics, the covid vaccines are not designed to alter genetics but it is grossly misleading to suggest that natural mRNA or synthetic mRNA cannot have an effect on genetics especially when used in conjunction with CRISPR. or used to create a R LOOP in cancer treatments which alters a cancerous cells genetic functions. mRNA effect on epigenetics and epigenetics are not fully understood by the scientific community.

 

Using mRNA to mutate a fish to be bioluminescent alters the fishes DNA then having 50% of the progeny also carry the mutation shows how powerful mRNA technology can be.

 

According to the founder of Moderna his company was set up to use mRNA to intervene in genetic diseases, why use mRNA if it has no effect on genetics, yet people keep insisting mRNA cannot effect DNA.

 

The covid mRNA vaccines will not cause a person to develop covid-19 but that is little comfort to many families in countries like Norway who lost frail and elderly loved ones due to the side effects of the vaccine, people who may have never contracted the disease if good protocols where in place.

 

Pfizer studies have shown a strong response and efficacy but I would not say this is any better or worse than natural immunity as studies have shown SARS COV 1 survivors still have strong immunity nearly 20 years later, only time will tell which vaccines or natural immunity performs better. A lot of interesting studies coming out of Asia in regards to natural immunity brought on by exposure to other coronaviruses and 1 study in regards to the protective effect of the common cold when exposed to covid-19

 

A genuine and real concern that is being raised is the issue of storing autoimmune issues for the future if synthetic mRNA vaccines and treatments become widespread. In Pfizers submission to the regulatory authorities in the UK they admitted that do not know precisely where the synthetic strand goes they could only report where they have not found it, they suspect as the CDC has stated that it is broken down and absorbed by the body in it's constituent parts but they cannot prove this. 

 

As with any new technology it's not all sweetness and light and only time will tell if this is a door that should have been left shut.

 

So when someone says they are not interested in a experimental vaccine to cruise and think it's wrong to be excluded from parts of their previous life unless they take an experimental vaccine they do have a relevant point as the science of synthetic mRNA is not fully understood or set in stone.

 

NCL and the others will set whatever policy they think they need in the best interests of their business even if I don't think all the rules make logical or scientific sense in some areas.

 

[BermudaBound2014]

@nomad098 thank you for such a detailed post. I appreciate it. I’m wondering your thoughts on the Johnson&Johnson since it doesn’t use mRNA.

[quack2]

On 4/6/2021 at 4:18 AM, BIG POOCH said:

With the reports of them requiring vaccinations, we will never be cruising on NCL again.  Hope they realize just how much this is going to hurt their business even more than it already has been.

I hope you enjoy staying home. 

[quack2]

On 4/6/2021 at 4:43 AM, Cindyb323 said:

unfortunately I believe all cruise lines will follow suit....

 

 

 

"Unfortunately"?    I think proof of vaccination should be a requirement for leaving one's residence.

[truecruiser]

On 4/6/2021 at 7:18 AM, BIG POOCH said:

With the reports of them requiring vaccinations, we will never be cruising on NCL again.  Hope they realize just how much this is going to hurt their business even more than it already has been.

 

They'll lose 1 customer.

[truecruiser]

On 4/6/2021 at 7:31 AM, Marine Mom said:

I don't think it will hurt their business at all.  I watched Del Rio on TV last night and although he says he  isn't in the business of telling people to get vaccinated or not to, in order to get his ships sailing, he feels the only way the CDC would give them permission to sail is for NCL to require everyone on board be vaccinated.  This means all the crew and passengers.  This may change down the road but for now, it is the only way they can hope to get the CDC's blessing to start sailing from the USA again.

 

Agree. It'll hurt them if they don't require it. Not only with customers, but with keeping crew. The more people who refuse to get vaccinated the more opportunity the virus has to mutate - Mutate into variants that may get around a vaccine. It's amazing that people still don't get this after all this time.

[kristi195]

On 4/6/2021 at 4:18 AM, BIG POOCH said:

With the reports of them requiring vaccinations, we will never be cruising on NCL again.  Hope they realize just how much this is going to hurt their business even more than it already has been.

It will not hurt their business.  The shut down has hurt their business. To get up and running is only a positive step in the right direction.

[nomad098]

7 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

@nomad098 thank you for such a detailed post. I appreciate it. I’m wondering your thoughts on the Johnson&Johnson since it doesn’t use mRNA.

 

Johnson & Johnson is a viral vector vaccine similar to the AZ vaccine. And looking at the reports it looks to have to be having similar issues with side effects.

 

In the same way people should not be putting mRNA vaccines on a pedestal and ignoring some of the issues people should be careful about casting aspersions at viral vector vaccines or other vaccines because they have issues. All vaccines have issues at an individual level but have benefits at a population level.

 

Would you take this medication with these side effects:

 

drowsiness
excitement or hyperactivity (especially in children)
headache
new or worsening dizziness
blurred vision
ringing in the ears
dry mouth, nose, or throat
problems with coordination
fainting
dizziness
nausea
fast, pounding, or irregular heartbeat

 

Or if you accidently take the wrong dose 

 

large pupils (black circles in the centers of the eyes)

flushed face

drowsiness or sleepiness

excitation or hyperactivity

hallucinations (seeing things or hearing voices that do not exist)

difficulty understanding reality

confusion

difficulty speaking or swallowing

unsteadiness

seizures

unresponsiveness or coma (loss of consciousness for a period of time)

 

People do it's a common sea sickness medication

 

 

 

[Goldconnection]

13 hours ago, quack2 said:

"Unfortunately"?    I think proof of vaccination should be a requirement for leaving one's residence.

👍🏿

[winterbliss]

13 hours ago, quack2 said:

"Unfortunately"?    I think proof of vaccination should be a requirement for leaving one's residence.

Oh my....

[richstowe]

On 4/8/2021 at 12:42 PM, fwdpost said:

Not so worried that NCL will always CYA, but that the CDC will do the same to the ultimate degree. Right now, plans are for you to be both vaccinated and tested right before you get onboard. Add to that - testing to get on the plane, then to get off the plane in foreign nations, and then possibly tested at every port. At $100 to $200 per person that makes international cruises to five or more ports VERY expensive and gives you really sore arms. Vaccinations are meaningless under these circumstances, and one wonders why we had to get them in the first place, especially if we already had the virus and recovered.

Perhaps to greatly reduce the chances of getting Covid and vastly reducing the likelihood of a life-threatening case . Perhaps to reduce the chances of spreading this disease to others . We don't all have the entire resources of Walter Reed behind us .

Agree with the rest of your comment though.

Edited April 9, 2021 by richstowe

[BermudaBound2014]

3 hours ago, winterbliss said:

Oh my....

I hear you.... it's terrifying really.

[DCGuy64]

3 hours ago, winterbliss said:

Oh my....

Well, note the poster's avatar, and it's quite par for the course, LOL.

[BermudaBound2014]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

Well, note the poster's avatar, and it's quite par for the course, LOL.

 

I went back and looked. The avatar is just a "Q"... what am I missing?

[DCGuy64]

4 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I went back and looked. The avatar is just a "Q"... what am I missing?

Sorry, I used the wrong word, I should've said screen name. 😄

[PhillyTravelBug]

4 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I went back and looked. The avatar is just a "Q"... what am I missing?

 

5 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I went back and looked. The avatar is just a "Q"... what am I missing?

just look up QAnon if you’re unfamiliar.

[BermudaBound2014]

Just now, DCGuy64 said:

Sorry, I used the wrong word, I should've said screen name. 😄

 

Gotcha... that's on me, I should have figured it out. It's early here.... still on 1st cup of coffee 🙂

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Gotcha... that's on me, I should have figured it out. It's early here.... still on 1st cup of coffee 🙂

No worries, it's on me, I goofed. I hope that coffee is Hawaiian Kona, yum yum. Enjoy! 😁☕

[BermudaBound2014]

10 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

No worries, it's on me, I goofed. I hope that coffee is Hawaiian Kona, yum yum. Enjoy! 😁☕

 

10% lol.... I'm frugal 🙂

 

But back to the topic, I'm absolutely shocked how many people like the statement. I'm fearful that we have lost ability to think rationally. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[coffeebean]

13 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

Johnson & Johnson is a viral vector vaccine similar to the AZ vaccine. And looking at the reports it looks to have to be having similar issues with side effects.

 

In the same way people should not be putting mRNA vaccines on a pedestal and ignoring some of the issues people should be careful about casting aspersions at viral vector vaccines or other vaccines because they have issues. All vaccines have issues at an individual level but have benefits at a population level.

 

Would you take this medication with these side effects:

 

drowsiness
excitement or hyperactivity (especially in children)
headache
new or worsening dizziness
blurred vision
ringing in the ears
dry mouth, nose, or throat
problems with coordination
fainting
dizziness
nausea
fast, pounding, or irregular heartbeat

 

Or if you accidently take the wrong dose 

 

large pupils (black circles in the centers of the eyes)

flushed face

drowsiness or sleepiness

excitation or hyperactivity

hallucinations (seeing things or hearing voices that do not exist)

difficulty understanding reality

confusion

difficulty speaking or swallowing

unsteadiness

seizures

unresponsiveness or coma (loss of consciousness for a period of time)

 

People do it's a common sea sickness medication

 

 

 

Funny you mention medication side effects. Most medications list side effects such as these. Nothing new. If you looked at the side effects for the top medications used here in the US, most of us would be 6 feet under if we were afraid to take the medications because of the side effects.

[Stallion]

Don't take Coffeebean if you are allergic to Coffeebean😵

[coffeebean]

22 hours ago, truecruiser said:

 

They'll lose 1 customer.

They just may gain customers who feel safer cruising with 100% vaccinated crew and passengers. That will be a bonus for them for new customers to experience their product.