No more cruises with NCL. Mandatory Vaccines?

[GeroWA]

4 hours ago, coffeebean said:

They just may gain customers who feel safer cruising with 100% vaccinated crew and passengers. That will be a bonus for them for new customers to experience their product.

Agree 110%

[SNJCruisers]

Have to applaud NCL for acting just like the fish going against the current on their carpeting onboard.  They are the only mass market line requiring 100% vaccinations.

 

Royal, Celebrity & Princess are requiring vaccines for all adults, and only negative testing for kids, while Carnival has not come out with a policy yet since they have not decided to embark from any non USA ports at this time.  NCL's policy is only in effect through the end of October, which just happens to coincide with the ending of the CSO  by the CDC.

 

Who knows what will happen come November 1, but a lot can and will change over the next 6.5 months.  Look at how much has changed in the past 6.5 months since October 1, 2020.

[Daytonasailor]

On 4/6/2021 at 10:05 AM, latebloomer56 said:

I don't like the idea of being vaccinated if and when I can. However I like the idea of not cruising even less. I will do what I must to cruise, my husband has had both shots, hope our sons get theirs next month when they are eligible but worried our grandson will not be allowed to cruise as he will be 12 in Oct.

Anybody know about children at this time?

Also not sure if they would refund us if we can't sail due to this new requirement which wasn't an issue when we booked our first time in 2019 for 2020. Hoping the third time is the charm for this Oct. 29th.

Thank you as always folk's, stay safe.

 

Not sure of kids at this time. We are concerned as our grandson (11) is booked to sail with us on 18 Dec. His 12th birthday is 11 Dec. OK, he gets a shot then, but don't you have to wait two weeks? I hope all of this mess is decided soon.

[All-ready2cruise]

5 minutes ago, Daytonasailor said:

 

Not sure of kids at this time. We are concerned as our grandson (11) is booked to sail with us on 18 Dec. His 12th birthday is 11 Dec. OK, he gets a shot then, but don't you have to wait two weeks? I hope all of this mess is decided soon.

Not sure about December but for now, yes, 14 day wait period for the vaccine to be active enough to offer protection. 

[nomad098]

3 hours ago, SNJCruisers said:

Have to applaud NCL for acting just like the fish going against the current on their carpeting onboard.  They are the only mass market line requiring 100% vaccinations.

 

Royal, Celebrity & Princess are requiring vaccines for all adults, and only negative testing for kids, while Carnival has not come out with a policy yet since they have not decided to embark from any non USA ports at this time.  NCL's policy is only in effect through the end of October, which just happens to coincide with the ending of the CSO  by the CDC.

 

Who knows what will happen come November 1, but a lot can and will change over the next 6.5 months.  Look at how much has changed in the past 6.5 months since October 1, 2020.

 

Before you get carried away applauding NCL lets put a few things into a different perspective and correct some oversights.

 

Royal & Celebrity - all staff, passengers over 18 vaccinated and tested, kids tested in the UK

 

Princess & P.O. part of Carnival Corp - All passengers vaccinated and tested, crew vaccination not required but crew must isolation for 2 weeks onboard. In the UK

 

MSC - testing required for all in the UK

 

NCL - All vaccinated and testing.

 

Looking at this it looks more like the CLIA have gotten together to put their own covid trials in place to see which works better. 

 

The perception is NCL are doing the best to protect it's passengers but what we understand now about the science and some basic logic would not agree.

 

From what is understood from this disease is:

 

A group full of vaccinated people is at a far greater risk than a group of unvaccinated kids. Protection with a vaccine at best 95%, kids natural protection 99.99947% based on UK figures.

 

Science and studies have shown us that teachers and those working with children risk factor is no higher than other professions not working with children, with those working with younger children being at a very slightly lower risk and the fact of the matter is that those at the highest risk are in adult facing roles.

 

This would suggest that though children may or may not transmit the disease amongst themselves. They are not actively passing the disease to adults even in casual close contact situations through airborne transmission.

 

The risk of mixing tested unvaccinated kids with vaccinated people is statistically miniscule. If NCL is not prepared to take this risk with covid-19 then the next logical step must be to require a influenza vaccination for all passengers as the risk to covid-19 vaccinated children from influenza far outweighs the risk of covid-19 to them by huge orders of magnitude. 

 

Based on health risk analysis there are huge swathes of risks that are far greater than the risk posed by tested unvaccinated kids and surely these should also be excluded from a cruise, alcohol, allergens, seafood and the list goes on.

 

Sociology and psychology studies show that adults in general behave better when kids are around and are more inhibited,  less inhibited adults with a unlimited supply of "free" alcohol sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

 

The effectiveness of the vaccines are also linked to age, if you have a cruise ship filled with people who would bring the average age up, that would statistically lower the effectiveness of the vaccine to below that of a cruise carrying a broad range of ages including tested unvaccinated kids.

 

NCL have made a business decision and quite possibly a political decision in regards to the CDC, but only time will tell if the decision is based in actual science and logic or just the perception of it.  

 

 

[Sailing12Away]

2 hours ago, nomad098 said:

Science and studies have shown us that teachers and those working with children risk factor is no higher than other professions not working with children, with those working with younger children being at a very slightly lower risk and the fact of the matter is that those at the highest risk are in adult facing roles.

I have to question the robustness of this study though. Are we talking pre-covid types of behavior in schools, or post-covid? Huge difference. Kids are behind plastic dividers now, teachers have to wipe and disinfect every surface multiple times throughout the day, lunch is sitting at your desk as opposed to eating in a big cafeteria, other 'normal' activities have been modified, etc.

 

Having family members currently working in the school, their day-to-day routine is not "normal" compared to pre-covid times. If the transmission rates are low between kids and their fellow students/teachers, it's because the endless precautions they're taking are working - not because kids aren't petri dish vectors of disease transmission. Trying to implement such cleaning routines and isolation on ships is certainly possible, but it's too early in the game for most of the cruise lines to take that risk.

[Calnev1]

Many cruise lines like NCL seem to be moving toward requiring vaccinations of passengers, crew, or both.  But will they be able to sail out of Florida?  The governor sayd he wants cruising to restart, and he is suing the CDC, but he is also taking action that undermine all the cruise line's COVID vaccination measures.  https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/2021/04/06/desantis-vaccine-passport-ban-could-delay-cruise-industry-reopening/7097957002/

 Its hard to see how and when cruising will restart in Florida. 

[Puffles311]

The cruise lines will probably just raise fares to compensate for those who do not want the vaccine. They won't survive with 30%-40% less passengers without an enormous price increases across the board. Right now the government is keeping them "afloat".

 

Half my friends, co-workers and family want to take the vaccine and half say never.

 

Interesting times ahead.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Puffles311

[nomad098]

3 minutes ago, Sailing12Away said:

I have to question the robustness of this study though. Are we talking pre-covid types of behavior in schools, or post-covid? Huge difference. Kids are behind plastic dividers now, teachers have to wipe and disinfect every surface multiple times throughout the day, lunch is sitting at your desk as opposed to eating in a big cafeteria, other 'normal' activities have been modified, etc.

 

Having family members currently working in the school, their day-to-day routine is not "normal" compared to pre-covid times. If the transmission rates are low between kids and their fellow students/teachers, it's because the endless precautions they're taking are working - not because kids aren't petri dish vectors of disease transmission. Trying to implement such cleaning routines and isolation on ships is certainly possible, but it's too early in the game for most of the cruise lines to take that risk.

 

From the sounds of it a lot different here in the UK and certainly not what is happening in my kids school, no plastic dividers, enhanced cleaning at the end of the day, kids are supposed to keep to their own bubbles of year groups about 250 kids and teachers, eating pack lunches in the canteens if wet or outside if dry, kids all mix on bus transportation going to or leaving school wearing masks and year group bubbles mix throughout the day and at home with siblings, school has never closed due to covid-19, other schools in my area have closed for as little as 1 suspected case.

 

The majority of schools in the UK never closed completely, still educating the children of key workers, vulnerable kids and economically disadvantaged kids. Some private schools never closed. As much as teachers were talking precautions so were other professions that saw a 3 fold increase above teachers

 

The study came from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) if you don't think it is robust enough take it up with them. If we don't believe or trust their information on this why should we believe them when they report excess mortality or other extremely important issues

 

 

Here is a BBC article on it

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55795608

[Calnev1]

5 minutes ago, Puffles311 said:

The cruise lines will probably just raise fares to compensate for those who do not want the vaccine. They won't survive with 30%-40% less passengers without an enormous price increases across the board. 

 

Half my friends, co-workers and family want to take it and half say no way.

 

 

I doubt they will lose 30 to 40 percent of their passengers over the vaccination requirement.  I think that some hard core cruisers will choose cruising over vaccination fears, particularly as they see their friends and family get vaccinated with no long term side effects.  To the extent that the cruise lines do lose passengers to a vaccination requirement, they can reduce the number of ships, and thus the number of cruises offered, to maintaing demand and price levels.

[Sailing12Away]

59 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

From the sounds of it a lot different here in the UK and certainly not what is happening in my kids school, no plastic dividers, enhanced cleaning at the end of the day, kids are supposed to keep to their own bubbles of year groups about 250 kids and teachers, eating pack lunches in the canteens if wet or outside if dry, kids all mix on bus transportation going to or leaving school wearing masks and year group bubbles mix throughout the day and at home with siblings, school has never closed due to covid-19, other schools in my area have closed for as little as 1 suspected case.

 

The majority of schools in the UK never closed completely, still educating the children of key workers, vulnerable kids and economically disadvantaged kids. Some private schools never closed. As much as teachers were talking precautions so were other professions that saw a 3 fold increase above teachers

 

The study came from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) if you don't think it is robust enough take it up with them. If we don't believe or trust their information on this why should we believe them when they report excess mortality or other extremely important issues

 

 

Here is a BBC article on it

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55795608

As you pointed out, there are vast differences between what is happening in the US and other parts of the world. Folks outside the US do a much better job of looking out for other people beyond their own bubble than we do here in the states. 

 

So as good as things are for you on your side of the pond, they're not as good for us here on this side. MSC is a European based cruise line, who is allowing kids on board. NCL is a US based line, who is not since the vaccine is not yet available to them. Makes sense to me. 

 

Until we can prove that US adults can travel without infecting each other, those at the ports they visit, and those they encounter when they get home - vaccines will be mandatory for travelers and I'm fine with that. 

[SNJCruisers]

8 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

Before you get carried away applauding NCL lets put a few things into a different perspective and correct some oversights.

 

Royal & Celebrity - all staff, passengers over 18 vaccinated and tested, kids tested in the UK

 

Princess & P.O. part of Carnival Corp - All passengers vaccinated and tested, crew vaccination not required but crew must isolation for 2 weeks onboard. In the UK

 

MSC - testing required for all in the UK

 

NCL - All vaccinated and testing.

 

Looking at this it looks more like the CLIA have gotten together to put their own covid trials in place to see which works better. 

 

The perception is NCL are doing the best to protect it's passengers but what we understand now about the science and some basic logic would not agree.

 

From what is understood from this disease is:

 

A group full of vaccinated people is at a far greater risk than a group of unvaccinated kids. Protection with a vaccine at best 95%, kids natural protection 99.99947% based on UK figures.

 

Science and studies have shown us that teachers and those working with children risk factor is no higher than other professions not working with children, with those working with younger children being at a very slightly lower risk and the fact of the matter is that those at the highest risk are in adult facing roles.

 

This would suggest that though children may or may not transmit the disease amongst themselves. They are not actively passing the disease to adults even in casual close contact situations through airborne transmission.

 

The risk of mixing tested unvaccinated kids with vaccinated people is statistically miniscule. If NCL is not prepared to take this risk with covid-19 then the next logical step must be to require a influenza vaccination for all passengers as the risk to covid-19 vaccinated children from influenza far outweighs the risk of covid-19 to them by huge orders of magnitude. 

 

Based on health risk analysis there are huge swathes of risks that are far greater than the risk posed by tested unvaccinated kids and surely these should also be excluded from a cruise, alcohol, allergens, seafood and the list goes on.

 

Sociology and psychology studies show that adults in general behave better when kids are around and are more inhibited,  less inhibited adults with a unlimited supply of "free" alcohol sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

 

The effectiveness of the vaccines are also linked to age, if you have a cruise ship filled with people who would bring the average age up, that would statistically lower the effectiveness of the vaccine to below that of a cruise carrying a broad range of ages including tested unvaccinated kids.

 

NCL have made a business decision and quite possibly a political decision in regards to the CDC, but only time will tell if the decision is based in actual science and logic or just the perception of it.  

 

 

Carried away?  Name one line of my post that was incorrect. 

[DoctorFeelgood]

On 4/6/2021 at 4:18 AM, BIG POOCH said:

With the reports of them requiring vaccinations, we will never be cruising on NCL again.  Hope they realize just how much this is going to hurt their business even more than it already has been.

This is America. Stupid people welcome to keep being as stupid as they want. Don’t get vaccinated. But they’re almost certain to be severely limiting their travel choices.

 

Even if some countries allow the unvaccinated in, how are those dummies even going the get there?
 

Airlines? Doubt it. No one wants to be sharing a plane with virus-spewing cretin. Airlines don’t even let people smoke on a plane. They’re not going to knowingly expose their crews and passengers to a moron who could be carrying a deadly infectious disease. Think of the liability!

 

Cruise lines? Ha! See how they freak out over Norovirus? How much does one Noro outbreak cost? Is any cruise line going to risk losing millions of dollars a day by letting an infected twit on board? Doubt it.

 

And what about travel insurance? I’m sure it won’t be a problem for people who are vaccinated. What about the deliberately unvaccinated? I doubt they’ll be able to find insurance, and if they do it’ll be suitably expensive and limited.

 

Which is great! Because it means that anti-vaxxer nutcases won’t be endangering the rest of us. The rest of us wouldn’t choose to have our vacations spoiled or our lives risked by, say, willingly traveling to a war zone.

 

So, if people want to engage in insane, anti-social, anti-vax temper tantrums, they don’t get to be part of the things that other people get to do, like go on a cruise or fly on a passenger plane.

 

Doesn’t stop them from chartering a private jet or private yacht.

[SNJCruisers]

6 hours ago, Puffles311 said:

The cruise lines will probably just raise fares...They won't survive...Right now the government is keeping them "afloat".

You actually think that the US government is subsidizing Carnival,  Royal and NCL, keeping them afloat?

They are hemorrhaging billions of dollars.  5 out of the 9 subsidiaries of Carnival as well as Royal, Celebrity and NCL will be cruising this summer to generate some money to act as a band aid until the CDC allows cruising to resume from the US.

[Sthrngary]

On 4/6/2021 at 6:18 AM, BIG POOCH said:

With the reports of them requiring vaccinations, we will never be cruising on NCL again.  Hope they realize just how much this is going to hurt their business even more than it already has been.

I would NEVER go on a cruise again unless they required a vaccine.  There is the pandemic call Covid-19.  It shut the world down for a year and almost destroyed the travel business.  I could not wait to get my vaccine.  My adult children felt the same way.  If I knew one of my local restaurants required vaccines, I would be eating there this evening. 

 

NCL is not the only cruise line that has done this.  They will lose your business and that is your right.  The will gain mine.  That is called even in my book.  

[Georgia_Peaches]

I agree with OP.  We will not sail under mandatory vaccination requirements.  I'm not prepared to put an experimental "vaccine" in my body and have no intention of participating in phase 3 clinical trials in real time.  Additionally, the vaccine is not readily available to all people yet and with many states putting a halt on some vaccine distributions, like J&J, the process becomes even more convoluted.  Finally, it has not been proven safe for adults at this point, much less children.  But the real question is this...if one has the vaccine, then why do they still need to use precautions such as face masks and social distancing? And if the vaccine protects those who have it then why does it matter if I choose not to get it? I don't ever get the flu shot but I certainly don't fault those who do.  If I get the flu and they don't then that's on me and my decision.  I've had the MMR vaccine, polio, hepatitis, etc...once vaccinated, I am protected from those illnesses.  Why is this vaccine different?  All rhetorical questions...

[Georgia_Peaches]

3 minutes ago, Sthrngary said:

I would NEVER go on a cruise again unless they required a vaccine. 

But if you get it, you are protected, right?  So why does it matter if I'm not protected?  Much like the flu vaccine.  With a 99.78% recovery rate for someone like myself who has no premorbidities, I'll take my chances w/o the vaccine...It should be a choice, like everything else.

[Georgia_Peaches]

1 hour ago, DoctorFeelgood said:

Even if some countries allow the unvaccinated in, how are those dummies even going the get there?

Condescending much?  Please...do your research, doc.

[Georgia_Peaches]

6 hours ago, Sailing12Away said:

Folks outside the US do a much better job of looking out for other people beyond their own bubble than we do here in the states. 

Would like to see your source for this.  Thanks.

[Georgia_Peaches]

7 hours ago, Calnev1 said:

The governor sayd he wants cruising to restart, and he is suing the CDC, but he is also taking action that undermine all the cruise line's COVID vaccination measures. 

I applaud the governor for taking steps to restart cruising in Florida.  Their economy has been substantially impacted by the cruising halt.  I also applaud his stance on not requiring a vaccine.  Nobody should every be forced to put something into their body just so they can participate in society. 

[Sthrngary]

13 minutes ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

But if you get it, you are protected, right?  So why does it matter if I'm not protected?  Much like the flu vaccine.  With a 99.78% recovery rate for someone like myself who has no premorbidities, I'll take my chances w/o the vaccine...It should be a choice, like everything else.

Georgia_Peaches, you do you.  You can just do it without cruising.  Not my rules.  This is not about if one believes in vaccines, masks, social distancing or anything else.  This is the rule that a business is putting in place.  I mean no disrespect here. Gaining a Vaccine does not mean I can't get Covid-19.  It means if I do, it will be less of an impact then if I did not get the vaccine.  Again, you do you.  Your right as an American.  Maybe one day, we can all be past this and the fear of what happened to our entire world.  When that day comes, then I hope we see each other on a cruise and the first round of drinks are on me.  

[Georgia_Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Sthrngary said:

Maybe one day, we can all be past this and the fear of what happened to our entire world.  When that day comes, then I hope we see each other on a cruise and the first round of drinks are on me.  

I pray for this day!  Thanks!

[GOTTODOIT]

23 minutes ago, Georgia_Peaches said:

Condescending much?  Please...do your research, doc.

I certainly won't be cruising with you or any others who have such negative attitudes to the well being of yourself and of fellow cruisers,  Good on NCL putting in such a policy,  you don't want to have the vaccine that is your prerogative and fortunately here in Australia we will not be seeing you here or any others who choose not to be vaccinated.  You won't be flying on any airline into Australia without a vaccination certificate,  Alan Joyce, CEO of Qantas has said No Vaccination, No Flying, 

[Georgia_Peaches]

3 minutes ago, GOTTODOIT said:

I certainly won't be cruising with you or any others who have such negative attitudes to the well being of yourself and of fellow cruisers,  Good on NCL putting in such a policy,  you don't want to have the vaccine that is your prerogative and fortunately here in Australia we will not be seeing you here or any others who choose not to be vaccinated.  You won't be flying on any airline into Australia without a vaccination certificate,  Alan Joyce, CEO of Qantas has said No Vaccination, No Flying, 

Totally fine with that, my friend.  Cheers!

[nomad098]

33 minutes ago, SNJCruisers said:

Carried away?  Name one line of my post that was incorrect. 

 

OK

14 hours ago, SNJCruisers said:

Royal, Celebrity & Princess are requiring vaccines for all adults, and only negative testing for kids

 

1) Princess are not requiring vaccinations for adult crew members

2) Kids must be vaccinated to travel on Princess.

3) As per Princess announcement only UK only cruises require a vaccination.

 

9 hours ago, nomad098 said:

They are the only mass market line requiring 100% vaccinations

 

This all depends on the definition of "crew" is this everyone working on the ship or just those directly employed by NCL, do contractors and subcontractors count as crew? I don't know you could be right.

 

100% vaccination may not actually be the optimal approach with this disease and runs its own risks.

 

Measles jab should be scientifically and technically 100% effective in reality it's 99% and there is not a scientist on the planet who can explain why after decades of research, so what do you think the chances are that a disease we have known about for less than 18 months might circumvent having 100% of cruisers vaccinated. 

 

I do know that the UK and Israeli scientific community has concerns that if you have a group of fully vaccinated people in close confines but still being exposed to a virus that is still in general circulation you run the risk of a vaccine resistant variant, the example they used was a vaccinated nursing home having multiple visitors both vaccinated and unvaccinated.

 

We are constantly told by the government scientists we are at a precarious point in the vaccination process, the more you pressure the virus the higher the risk of a bad mutation and leaving an out for the virus might be the best approach according to some scientists.

 

This is why "HANDS, FACE, SPACE" will still be in effect when other restrictions are lifted and all adults are offered a vaccine.

 

I am not against having vaccines to cruise, I waiting for my second AZ jab and my wife has had both Pfizer jabs, I just don't think it is as 100% cut and dried solution as it appears on the surface.