Carnival CEO Says No Vaccination Requirement

[Mary229]

49 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

You make the assumption that because you do not see vaccine hesitancy in your area that it does not exist in other places. Therefore you reject any proofs that have been show as to its existence.

I look at dashboards of states as people have asked me and I have not seen it with the exception of Alabama which is first a rural state with the difficulties that presents and the long memory of the Tuskegee Experiment.   All of the other “evidence” is garbage surveys. The only survey that matters to me is the vaccination distribution/vaccination allocation rate.  
 

https://www.history.com/news/the-infamous-40-year-tuskegee-study

Edited April 20, 2021 by Mary229

[LSEA]

I'm fine with the absence of a vaccination requirement.  I'm now fully vaccinated (+3 weeks), but the vaccine isn't  bulletproof. I fully understand why some are choosing not to vaccinate.

 

I don't have the energy to analyze other people choices to the nth degree.  I've also given up on having a flawless experience.  It's not uncommon for illness (or weather for that matter) to result in an adjustment to a cruise. 

[Mary229]

36 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Thanks for your post.  You apparently are not understanding the reason why I made my post.  It was NOT to support what MSC is or is not doing.  My post was simply trying to be informative to those on our Message Board who do not check the MSC Message Board nor do they follow Cruise Industry News.

Thank you for that source.  I was not aware of it.  I will add it to my reading lists. 

[nocl]

4 hours ago, Mary229 said:

 This is not the first pandemic in human history.  All of theses viruses jumped species.  This is not a first. This is manageable and the hyperbole and the refusal to see any positive news is disturbing.  When a vaccine company says they can manage the variants, you say no, there might be more. When the hospitalization rates are clearly down, you compress the graph looking for acceleration, when people are lining up in winter snow and sleet for a shot you say there is hesitancy.  This is an unsurmountable philosophical difference. 

1. While I see and comment on plenty of positive news, including projections about case numbers. I do not ignore the stage where we are at with the epidemic  which is basically numbers reducing and improving, but still at unacceptable levels  to depend solely on vaccines.  Vaccination numbers doing well but starting to encounter more situations where  the number of those getting vaccine is slowing down leaving unfilled appointments.  

 

2. You stated that there was no evidence of the vaccines being less effective against the variants.  Then proceeded to post links to articles that even stated that even the companies in vitro tests should that while they should still be effect, the level of effectiveness will probably be lower.  Indicated by in other articles posted that the companies (AZ and Moderna) are concerned enough that they are working on new versions specifically against the variants.

 

3. I have not posted any graphs on hospitalization so not sure who you are talking about here.  The times when it did post data is was when there was a bottoming out in cases and the upturn indicated.  Which over the past few weeks cases have done just as that upturn is rolling over and the trend in new cases in the US appears to be downward.

 

4. I have not really talked about vaccine hesitancy other than maybe in the general sense that it is a limiting factor and one reasons other protective measures are needed.  I certainly have not posted any data looking at the current rates.  So again you must be confusing posts of others

 

The difference is not philosophy.  The difference is in the use and rigor of the data.

Edited April 20, 2021 by nocl

[idiebabe]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Thanks for your post.  You apparently are not understanding the reason why I made my post.  It was NOT to support what MSC is or is not doing.  My post was simply trying to be informative to those on our Message Board who do not check the MSC Message Board nor do they follow Cruise Industry News.

Thank you for sharing the news on MSC but you added the line about Mr. Donald with regards to the Crew which was misleading. That should have been left out since some could possibly misunderstand and think Carnival will not require Crew Vaccinations.   If Mr. Donald announces a position on Crew Vaccines, please post it with a link!  

[bennybear]

2 hours ago, Mary229 said:

 

But what do I hear here on CC - oooooh, people are hesitant, it is people of some political beliefs who will not be vaccinated - it is just not true. And that makes me upset.  Dissing the vaccine makes me upset.  

We have many who are reluctant, so I don’t know how you can categorically state it’s not true.  
I wish it wasn’t, it seems incredibly shortsighted IMO.   And I’m not dissing any vaccines, but concern over astra Zeneca and blood clots have caused several counties to halt or limit its use. 

[Mary229]

Just now, bennybear said:

We have many who are reluctant, so I don’t know how you can categorically state it’s not true.  
I wish it wasn’t, it seems incredibly shortsighted IMO.   And I’m not dissing any vaccines, but concern over astra Zeneca and blood clots have caused several counties to halt or limit its use. 

Every time someone mentions a state I go to the state’s vaccine dashboard and look at the numbers. Each of the 50 states have a dashboard which shows how many vaccines are allocated, shipped, received and administered.  With the exception I noted above, Alabama, I have not seen any lack of demand.  If the state is administering every vaccine they receive that indicates very strong, even enthusiastic demand.  (Not every vaccine, there are always manufacturing errors, mishandled, etc.. They give those numbers too)   
 

besides your concern there are people who should not receive the vaccine and I have seen them abused on this forum.  People with allergies, those with suppressed immune systems, pregnant and lactating women (?) and others who with the guidance of medical professionals should not receive a vaccine.   However the constant diatribe about the variants and the longevity is ridiculous. The vaccine makers have said they can produce vaccines for the variants and there is immunity for those variants, perhaps not 95% but immunity. And longevity of immunity is an issue with many vaccines 

[bennybear]

2 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

Every time someone mentions a state I go to the state’s vaccine dashboard and look at the numbers. Each of the 50 states have a dashboard which shows how many vaccines are allocated, shipped, received and administered.  With the exception I noted above, Alabama, I have not seen any lack of demand.  If the state is administering every vaccine they receive that indicates very strong, even enthusiastic demand.  (Not every vaccine, there are always manufacturing errors, mishandled, etc.. They give those numbers too)   
 

besides your concern there are people who should not receive the vaccine and I have seen them abused on this forum.  People with allergies, those with suppressed immune systems, pregnant and lactating women (?) and others who with the guidance of medical professionals should not receive a vaccine.   However the constant diatribe about the variants and the longevity is ridiculous. The vaccine makers have said they can produce vaccines for the variants and there is immunity for those variants, perhaps not 95% but immunity. And longevity of immunity is an issue with many vaccines 

Therein lies the issue, this is not just a US pandemic, you also need to look at countries around the globe.  You will see what is happening in Brazil, India and other locales. Yes some  vaccines provide some immunity, but in some cases not enough.  So that is why the concern.   The South African, B117 and P1 variants are very nasty and have  caused much more spread and severity of illness and more new variants are arising.   That’s the reality.  New vaccines will need to continue to be developed and this causes lag time.  So reality is it’s not over yet! 
 

[idiebabe]

8 minutes ago, bennybear said:

We have many who are reluctant, so I don’t know how you can categorically state it’s not true.  
I wish it wasn’t, it seems incredibly shortsighted IMO.   And I’m not dissing any vaccines, but concern over astra Zeneca and blood clots have caused several counties to halt or limit its use. 

Great concern, too, over J&J with the Blood Clots and some other side effects that are coming out about J&J.  I know many Young people who have or are being Vaccinated and our Walgreens Tech said she’s Vaccinating many.  However, many are on the fence because they’re very nervous about sterility, brain tumors twenty years from now or death from Blood Clots.  Social Media and the News are not helping in this area!  

 

They’ve been told for a year they are Low Risk unless they have Underlying Conditions or Obese so they feel why take a risk with the Vaccine.  

 

We’re  fully Vaccinated and felt since we’re High Risk it wasn’t an option for us to not get Vaccinated.  I think this is why so many of our Age Group and Older were/are more willing to get it.  If my options were only AZ or J&J, maybe I wouldn’t have been so quick to get the Vaccine.  

[Mary229]

7 minutes ago, bennybear said:

Therein lies the issue, this is not just a US pandemic, you also need to look at countries around the globe.  You will see what is happening in Brazil, India and other locales. Yes some  vaccines provide some immunity, but in some cases not enough.  So that is why the concern.   The South African, B117 and P1 variants are very nasty and have  caused much more spread and severity of illness and more new variants are arising.   That’s the reality.  New vaccines will need to continue to be developed and this causes lag time.  So reality is it’s not over yet! 
 

I don’t want to go down this you post an article then I post an article again. I have read the vaccine company’s releases and I will stick by that.  Why, because those are practicing scientists, not a bureaucrat who hasn’t performed a clinical study, trial or experiment in 50 years.  I do not read the South African press but I do read the Indian press quite often 

Edited April 21, 2021 by Mary229

[bennybear]

4 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I don’t want to go down this you post an article then I post an article again. I have read the vaccine company’s releases and I will stick by that.  

I’m not trying to prove anything, the numbers speak for themselves. It very much depends on which vaccine and which variant.  South Africa quit using Astra Zeneca as it wasn’t working well on that variant.  The concern here is the P1, in particular. 
 

 But  you might want to do a little research on other countries. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by bennybear

[Mary229]

1 minute ago, bennybear said:

I’m not trying to prove anything, the numbers speak for themselves.  But do a little research on other countries. 

I have, I make a point of reading foreign press. India has always been a favorite long before this crisis.  Because we may not agree I respect your intelligence please extend the same courtesy 

[Pizzasteve]

14 minutes ago, idiebabe said:

Great concern, too, over J&J with the Blood Clots and some other side effects that are coming out about J&J.  I know many Young people who have or are being Vaccinated and our Walgreens Tech said she’s Vaccinating many.  However, many are on the fence because they’re very nervous about sterility, brain tumors twenty years from now or death from Blood Clots.  Social Media and the News are not helping in this area!  

 

They’ve been told for a year they are Low Risk unless they have Underlying Conditions or Obese so they feel why take a risk with the Vaccine.  

 

We’re  fully Vaccinated and felt since we’re High Risk it wasn’t an option for us to not get Vaccinated.  I think this is why so many of our Age Group and Older were/are more willing to get it.  If my options were only AZ or J&J, maybe I wouldn’t have been so quick to get the Vaccine.  

People have a hard time understanding orders of magnitude, basic math and hence do not measure risk very well.  It is sad that news and fear are causing vaccine hesitancy.  Covid19 risks are orders of magnitude worse, both in terms of their health impact and likelihood that they happen.

 

Taking actions with a 1 / million problem rate to 99% mitigate something with a 1/100 death rate is a no brainer.  Please vaccinate and we can lower community spread to almost trivial levels and at that point cruising will be relatively safe, whether crew and passengers are 100% vaccinated or not.

 

PS, while I quote this is not directed at poster.  Note: This is not a unique situation, as even Fortune CEOs and their teams often do a poor job of measuring business risks and destroy a lot of shareholder value as a result. Based on global research,  I co-led a team to author the enterprise risk management advisory methodology for one of the global advisory and audit firms (when I still worked).  Humans need structured approaches to assess risk well and sadly few get the training they need.  Disease scientists are actually among the best trained, though necessarily they are risk adverse in their strategies employed.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Pizzasteve

[bennybear]

3 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I have, I make a point of reading foreign press. India has always been a favorite long before this crisis.  Because we may not agree I respect your intelligence please extend the same courtesy 

Of course we can disagree but you only seem to refer to the US. I am just pointing out that there are different experiences elsewhere.    One can disagree and still be courteous. 

[Laminator]

2 hours ago, Mary229 said:

I look at dashboards of states as people have asked me and I have not seen it with the exception of Alabama which is first a rural state with the difficulties that presents and the long memory of the Tuskegee Experiment.   All of the other “evidence” is garbage surveys. The only survey that matters to me is the vaccination distribution/vaccination allocation rate.  
 

https://www.history.com/news/the-infamous-40-year-tuskegee-study

In IL they are reallocating doses from the southern areas of the State into the Northern areas of the State as they are having enormous issues filling slots down south. In the Northern areas they fill up teh appt slots immediately. 

[Pizzasteve]

4 minutes ago, Laminator said:

In IL they are reallocating doses from the southern areas of the State into the Northern areas of the State as they are having enormous issues filling slots down south. In the Northern areas they fill up teh appt slots immediately. 

It is a very dynamic situation, and hence not easily modeled.  One story or decision like the JJ pause can immediately impact the field situation.  Hard to judge at the vaccine sites we have worked as the people there want the vaccine and there remain plenty of eager people to fill slots.  In a month or so we will no better the hold out communities and how badly they may impact community spread numbers, which matter greatly for varient control.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Pizzasteve

[Mary229]

1 minute ago, Laminator said:

In IL they are reallocating doses from the southern areas of the State into the Northern areas of the State as they are having enormous issues filling slots down south. In the Northern areas they fill up teh appt slots immediately. 

Here is a quick graphic from Illinois.  The Springfield area looks particularly well vaccinated along with some other of the southern counties. .  The vaccine data seems to indicate strong demand.  Always at the beginning of the week there is a big gap between delivers and administered but that quickly closes by week’s end.  Link:  https://www.dph.illinois.gov/covid19/vaccinedata?county=Illinois

 

 

[Laminator]

13 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

Here is a quick graphic from Illinois.  The Springfield area looks particularly well vaccinated along with some other of the southern counties. .  The vaccine data seems to indicate strong demand.  Always at the beginning of the week there is a big gap between delivers and administered but that quickly closes by week’s end.  Link:  https://www.dph.illinois.gov/covid19/vaccinedata?county=Illinois

 

 

Massive supply imbalance fueled by vaccine hesitancy: Illinois’ latest struggles with COVID-19 mass vaccination - Chicago Tribune

 

[jeynon]

Totally agree with this position not requiring an experimental vaccine in order to travel. The CDC will not confirm that it will keep anyone from becoming infected, or becoming a "spreader". Masks and social distancing are still prescribed for those who have been vaccinated.  If masks are in fact effective in preventing transmission, or becoming infected by the virus, and the PCR test is in fact accurate...why the concern and demand for everyone to be vaccinated? It is a false sense of security to believe over 3000 passengers on a cruise ship who have been fully vaccinated are no longer potential spreaders.  Already mRNA gene therapy providers are admitting "booster" shots will be needed, and the vaccines may not protect anyone from variants and mutations of the Corona Virus.  Health questionnaires have been deemed satisfactory, taking passengers word that they do not knowingly have contagious diseases that are far more contagious, and have significantly higher mortality rates!  Travel involves risk. Every individual needs to decide for themselves whether the benefits out weigh the risks.  I willing take my chances with the belief that I have a 99.7 percent chance of surviving Covid 19 without taking an experimental gene therapy drug. Just say NO to vaccine passports...hey, my body my choice, Right?

[Mary229]

14 minutes ago, Laminator said:

Massive supply imbalance fueled by vaccine hesitancy: Illinois’ latest struggles with COVID-19 mass vaccination - Chicago Tribune

 

I guess they can send to press anything they want but that county has a higher vaccination rate than the state rate.   I did not delve into the demographics but I think the narrative about hesitancy should be put on hold until we have an overall lack of demand.  Then we can gauge what is happening.  If my community is any indication we will achieve 80% vaccination before “hesitancy” is an issue

[idiebabe]

1 minute ago, Pizzasteve said:

People have a hard time understanding orders of magnitude, basic math and hence do not measure risk very well.  It is sad that news and fear are causing vaccine hesitancy.  Covid19 risks are orders of magnitude worse, both in terms of their health impact and likelihood that they happen.

It is sad that the Media whether Social Sites or Cable are creating fear whether they realize it or not.   In addition to the fear of a Serious Reaction there is a concern about long-term negative effects.  They are also hearing get the Vaccine but you still need to Mask Up, don’t go out for Dinner or to a Party, etc. and they feel then why bother getting Vaccinated.  
 

The Woman who died due the Blood Clot by J&J is a very sad story.  She was 46 years old, had two Children, had Grandchildren and a Mom.  She was excited to get the Vaccine and wanted J&J for the one dose shot.  Four days later she wasn’t feeling well, got sick and her Mother found her in the Bathroom.  They said at first they thought she had two Aneurisms but it turned out to be one massive one.  Her Children lost their Mom, Grandkids lost Grandma and a Mother buried her Child.  
 

All my Children and their Spouses are Vaccinated except my DIL.  She was scheduled for Pfizer and cancelled when she saw the story about the Woman’s death with J&J.  She’s 39 years old, in good health and said she’s not going to risk having her kids grow up without their Mom.  She is not an Anti-Vaccer but for now she will wait until the Vaccines are around longer.

 

If we’re all honest, the reason we wear a Mask, Social Distance and are getting the Vaccines at our age is really because we are protecting ourselves.  The majority of the High Risk Group are or will be Vaccinated, many of the other age Groups are getting Vaccinated.  Many who had Covid have Antibodies.   It’s not over yet but we are heading in the right direction and it’s only been since January that the Vaccines started to roll out.  

 

[HappyInVan]

4 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

The  CC host on the MSC Message Board has posted this afternoon a report from Cruise Industry News.  MSC's CEO Onorata states in the article that their ships will sail with both vaccinated crew and unvaccinated crew.  At this time, guests will not be required to be vaccinated, "but, we are open to it."  

 

This seems to support the statement that Mr. Donald has made.  

 

 

MSC projects restarting on... AUGUST 1st with 10 ships. They have to use unvaccinated crews because vax isn't available.

 

BTW, we should remember that the MSC Grandiosa (5-6k pax capacity) is currently running at about 1.5k occupancy. Plus, I presume that MSC will continue the bubble excursions?

 

Meanwhile, Cunard and P&O have committed to 100% vax cruises around the UK.

Edited April 21, 2021 by HappyInVan

[HappyInVan]

Sorry. Duplicate

Edited April 21, 2021 by HappyInVan

[Laminator]

35 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I guess they can send to press anything they want but that county has a higher vaccination rate than the state rate.   I did not delve into the demographics but I think the narrative about hesitancy should be put on hold until we have an overall lack of demand.  Then we can gauge what is happening.  If my community is any indication we will achieve 80% vaccination before “hesitancy” is an issue

Springfield should have a higher vaccination rate than the surrounding counties as it is pretty much split evenly blue and red. Those surrounding counties are heavily red. 

[TriumphGuy]

2 hours ago, jeynon said:

Totally agree with this position not requiring an experimental vaccine in order to travel. The CDC will not confirm that it will keep anyone from becoming infected, or becoming a "spreader". Masks and social distancing are still prescribed for those who have been vaccinated.  If masks are in fact effective in preventing transmission, or becoming infected by the virus, and the PCR test is in fact accurate...why the concern and demand for everyone to be vaccinated? It is a false sense of security to believe over 3000 passengers on a cruise ship who have been fully vaccinated are no longer potential spreaders.  Already mRNA gene therapy providers are admitting "booster" shots will be needed, and the vaccines may not protect anyone from variants and mutations of the Corona Virus.  Health questionnaires have been deemed satisfactory, taking passengers word that they do not knowingly have contagious diseases that are far more contagious, and have significantly higher mortality rates!  Travel involves risk. Every individual needs to decide for themselves whether the benefits out weigh the risks.  I willing take my chances with the belief that I have a 99.7 percent chance of surviving Covid 19 without taking an experimental gene therapy drug. Just say NO to vaccine passports...hey, my body my choice, Right?

Are you ok with being quarantined on a ship for a month, ie., Diamond Princess, because someone refused to get vaccinated and caught the virus? Or refused entry into a foreign port?
No one wants to see that happen.