New CDC guidelines released 5/5/21

[NMTraveller]

Just now, nocl said:

the CEO and his attorneys certainly understand what the requirement it.

 

However they also have a PR agenda, a lobbying agenda and if recent reports are correct in discussions about requirements with vaccination required.

 

Those agendas would not be served by him stating that the requirement is e same as has been required when inside sining has been allowed for months.

 

better for those agendas to take the extreme interpretation about how unreasonable the rules are. Onw seldom wins a negotiation by saying the other sides position is reasonable.

I will say the same that I said to others.  Explain why the national news media is reporting the same.

[markeb]

28 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

Del Rio and the national newspapers.

 

Serious question, even though it's going to sound smarta$$ed. Which national newspapers? I haven't seen a word in the Post or the NYT, although I went to the primary source and quite worrying about the travel media. It didn't pop up on Apple News. And the only links in this entire thread are to either niche travel media or one business article (which had none of the details Del Rio is complaining about). I honestly have not seen a peep in a major national newspaper. You apparently have.

[harkinmr]

2 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

Serious question, even though it's going to sound smarta$$ed. Which national newspapers? I haven't seen a word in the Post or the NYT, although I went to the primary source and quite worrying about the travel media. It didn't pop up on Apple News. And the only links in this entire thread are to either niche travel media or one business article (which had none of the details Del Rio is complaining about). I honestly have not seen a peep in a major national newspaper. You apparently have.

It's all the cruise media.  They are on the same rampage as Del Rio.  No one else cares.  And Jim Cramer is a blowhard.  Pure entertainment.

Edited May 11, 2021 by harkinmr

[nocl]

13 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

I will say the same that I said to others.  Explain why the national news media is reporting the same.

Good cruise line lobbying and press relations. 

 

CDC says nothing because their statements are in the publications. Rules for public comments in general do not allow comments from most individuals.

 

To understand the points the press either has to have an expert, go and ask the CDC (who will probably say nothing beyond what  documents already say)

 

Or publish the line expressed by the cruise line PR and lobbying folks with good sound bites from the execs. who has no restrictions.

 

Which is easier?

 

Pretty normal in dealing between a regulatory authority and regulated industry.

 

One of the best media outlets concerning the cruise lines is the Miami Herald. while they carried Del Rio comments about leaving Florida due to florida law preventing a cruise from requiring vaccination. I can not find anywhere where the covered the Del Rio mask dining rant.

Edited May 11, 2021 by nocl

[Ken the cruiser]

1 hour ago, NMTraveller said:

The cruise lines are talking and working with the CDC.  They don't seem to be very happy.

 

Just don't eat the soup.  It will make your mask a mess in the dining room.  

 

Suppose that the planets align,  miracles happen, and the massive bureacracy is conquered.  Will the rules be such that anyone will want to cruise?

 

I for one will not want to wear a mask on the pool deck outside.  I won't cruise.

Well, first off we don't hang out at the pool as we always book a cabin with a balcony and on the Phase 4 restricted cruises I dont believe you'll be able to book an inside or oceanview cabin anyway.

 

So we have to wear a mask out in public while we're on one of the Phase 4 restricted cruises out of Ft Lauderdale in July and August. We did that at Disney World for a whole week a couple of weeks ago and we still had a blast. Also, when we sat down to eat at a restaurant, we took our masks off while we ate and then we put them back on when we got up to leave, and I'm sure it will be the same while we're on the restricted cruises. No big deal.

 

I'm really not getting why wearing a mask while the pandemic is still going on is such a big deal. As I've said before, it's been nice not getting sick at all these past 14 months, and at 68 that's saying something!

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[markeb]

3 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

The CDC does read the national newspapers though.

 

 

 

Which is equivalent the media lead in that "the Pentagon says".

 

The Pentagon is a building, made of granite. It doesn't talk. There are roughly 25,000 people who work there on a normal, non-COVID day. Five (if we include Space Force) Military Services. The Office of the Secretary of Defense, the Joint Staff, three Military Departments. All as often as not battling as much with each other for budget as with anyone else.

 

The CDC is more than 21,000 full-time employees and contractors in 170 different occupations and has workers in all 50 states and in more than 50 countries. Nearly 15,000 employees work in Atlanta. Most of its employees have a background in medicine or science, but the agency also employs accountants, budget administrators and more. (Borrowed from the web.) 

 

It's Centers, BTW, plural. Only a couple of those activities have anything to do with cruising or international quarantine policy, where most of this falls. A decent chunk of them work with state, local, tribal, and territorial health departments in those health departments. Another decent chunk run one of the world's 2-3 best viral and rickettsial disease research programs. Another group run one of the world's best foodborne disease investigation programs. I'm sure those employees are shaking in their shoes from what they're (not) seeing in the national media. The top handful of executives will get a daily read from the PAO, but I can't imagine there's much in it on cruising. Nor should there be.

 

So JUST STOP! Maybe do some independent research on the CDC and HHS and make an honest attempt to understand them and their authorities. And no, I do not now nor have I ever worked in any capacity for the CDC or HHS. But I generally choose to understand my subject before going off half cocked, even on an internet forum!

[NMTraveller]

11 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

 

So JUST STOP! Maybe do some independent research on the CDC and HHS and make an honest attempt to understand them and their authorities. And no, I do not now nor have I ever worked in any capacity for the CDC or HHS. But I generally choose to understand my subject before going off half cocked, even on an internet forum!

I do not pretend to be a CDC expert such as ahem others on this board.

 

I do hear the Impending Doom and other quotes that are shall I say a mixed message and presented to the wrong audience.

 

The CDC functions by voluntary compliance.  Once people think that the rules are over the top they stop complying.

 

The CDC is a large bureacracy based upon your description.  A  bureacracy larger than many businesses.

 

If nothing else they require a media expert to clearly get their purpose and points across.

Edited May 11, 2021 by NMTraveller

[harkinmr]

31 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

 

The CDC functions by voluntary compliance.  Once people think that the rules are over the top they stop complying.

 

You obviously haven't been paying attention.  CDC guidance has been virtually ignored by millions of folks across this country since this whole sad event began.  Ordinary citizens and politicians alike.  People are not just all of a sudden getting tired of things and deciding to stop complying.  That's a weak excuse.

[NMTraveller]

On 5/6/2021 at 6:58 AM, K.T.B. said:

 

Still a buffet, just no more self serve, the food will be served to us.   

I view this as a step up in service.

[K.T.B.]

2 hours ago, harkinmr said:

You obviously haven't been paying attention.  CDC guidance has been virtually ignored by millions of folks across this country since this whole sad event began.  Ordinary citizens and politicians alike.  People are not just all of a sudden getting tired of things and deciding to stop complying.  That's a weak excuse.

 

NVM

Edited May 11, 2021 by K.T.B.

[excitedofharpenden]

7 hours ago, NMTraveller said:

I view this as a step up in service.

You might change your mind when you actually experience it. I've been on a ship a few times when heightened sanitation has had to be implemented due to Norovirus with the removal of self serve buffet and it becomes a pain on ships that don't normally cater for it. 

 

Phil 

[TeeRick]

11 hours ago, markeb said:

 

Serious question, even though it's going to sound smarta$$ed. Which national newspapers? I haven't seen a word in the Post or the NYT, although I went to the primary source and quite worrying about the travel media. It didn't pop up on Apple News. And the only links in this entire thread are to either niche travel media or one business article (which had none of the details Del Rio is complaining about). I honestly have not seen a peep in a major national newspaper. You apparently have.

Mark, if you get The NY Times newsfeed today you will see a lengthy discussion of how the CDC has highly exaggerated the risk of outdoor COVID transmission which they say is less than 10% but it is closer to 0.1% by all accounts.  And that is without masks or vaccines. The CDC used data from one study only from a Singapore construction site.  The workers dined outside and took breaks in very close associations with each other.  The CDC has no data on public pools or anything relevant supporting their 10% risk number.

[K.T.B.]

26 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Mark, if you get The NY Times newsfeed today you will see a lengthy discussion of how the CDC has highly exaggerated the risk of outdoor COVID transmission which they say is less than 10% but it is closer to 0.1% by all accounts.  And that is without masks or vaccines. The CDC used data from one study only from a Singapore construction site.  The workers dined outside and took breaks in very close associations with each other.  The CDC has no data on public pools or anything relevant supporting their 10% risk number.

 

CDC is taking the "Chicken Little approach" to this now.  Look, we need a true authority on what's going on right now.  And the only one who has been correct throughout, even when ALL the scientists and doctors (including him) were trying to figure out Covid and the data changed, has been Dr. Fauci.  Listen to him and we'll be fine.  I have and I've made it 15+ months without an illness of any kind.

 

As you mention, the CDC is using highly exaggerated data.  IMO, the CDC is still stuck in August of 2020, while the rest of the world is operating in the here and now.  Unfortunately, the cruise lines , et al, are being hamstrung by the CDC's ignorance and bad data.

[Oceangoer2]

13 hours ago, harkinmr said:

Are you kidding?  This whole thread has pretty much been the same people saying the same things over and over and over again about how impossible and unreasonable and evil the CDC is.  Enough already!  We get it!  And now we mix in 3 or 4 pages of discussion on meat packing plants.  Sheesh!  I hope the moderators shut this one down and soon.  

I wondered when someone would mention  "how did we get to meat packing plants".....in this discussion going nowhere.  I've been waiting for the few to get over themselves and run down.

[TeeRick]

If we got back on this thread to vaccines and medical topics that would be a step in the right direction IMO.   For me anyway.  There are so many other threads on the CDC with the exact same discussions on them and the same posters.  Including me.  

[Ride-The-Waves]

20 hours ago, ipeeinthepool said:

 

No on would be sailing outside of the US if they had to follow the CDC rules.

Italian protocols for "cruising" under the pandemic are significantly stricter than those promulgated by the CDC.  MSC is operating under those rules sailing from Italian ports.

[harkinmr]

20 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

 

And what Fauci said was that people may decide to wear masks seasonally after the coronavirus pandemic.

I think he’s right. Americans may choose to do that to protect themselves from the common cold and seasonal flu.  I did not have one cold this Winter. 

[harkinmr]

19 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Italian protocols for "cruising" under the pandemic are significantly stricter than those promulgated by the CDC.  MSC is operating under those rules sailing from Italian ports.

Thank you.  I have no idea why people think that cruises outside the US are protocol-free.  And that will include the soon to be sailing vaccinated cruises. 

[markeb]

42 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

CDC is taking the "Chicken Little approach" to this now.  Look, we need a true authority on what's going on right now.  And the only one who has been correct throughout, even when ALL the scientists and doctors (including him) were trying to figure out Covid and the data changed, has been Dr. Fauci.  Listen to him and we'll be fine.  I have and I've made it 15+ months without an illness of any kind.

 

As you mention, the CDC is using highly exaggerated data.  IMO, the CDC is still stuck in August of 2020, while the rest of the world is operating in the here and now.  Unfortunately, the cruise lines , et al, are being hamstrung by the CDC's ignorance and bad data.

 

I don't know what they're doing internally and behind the scenes, but if 10% got out based on that data, they screwed up somewhere. You're may be surprised, but I agree messaging is a big problem down in Atlanta. Especially the last 15 months or so. Contrary to the opinion that the CDC is too political, you can find essays out there from former Directors that they're so disconnected from politics that they lose top cover, and highly technical people just don't seem to understand the impact of communication, because they went there to do science. And the 10% just reeks of a bad Dilbert cartoon: PAO: How much transmission occurs outside? Researcher: We're not really sure. Some studies we reviewed are as low as 0.1%, some as high as almost 10%, but all the studies have problems. It's probably less than 1%, but we don't know. PAO: So, less than 10%. Researcher: All the studies are less than 10%. Press release: CDC estimates no more than 10% of transmission occurs outdoors!  Researcher returns to their happy place with spreadsheets and review articles happy to be rid of the PAO.

 

The cruise guidance that started this thread has those same issues. Those are really guidance documents to industry, not to cruisers. Yes, the requirements, unless changed, will pass through, but they're designed to tell industry how to develop plans and what to address. But since there's nothing else out there in a more traditional public facing space, they're the only game in town. If this is an area now being worked, there should be at least a simple public facing site on how is the CDC addressing returning to cruising or returning to travel. What is there just isn't that.

 

I agree completely on Dr. Fauci. He was vilified pretty much on this board, and plenty of other places. But he has so many advantages over anyone else in the federal health world. Everyone I know who's ever been to anything he spoke at or attended will tell you that first and foremost he is brilliant. He's an advisor in this space; he gets to give his professional opinion. The CDC Director is by definition a policy maker, so anything she says can be interpreted as policy. Fauci has one of the most unique appointments in the federal government. He's not a political nominee or  traditional appointee. He's on a highly specialized excepted appointment as NIAID Director. He was first hired into that position to work HIV/AIDS by an administration that was still looking for lifestyle reasons for developing AIDS that didn't involve HIV. And around 40 years of doing that have left him pretty capable of holding his own in any administration. He may look like Clark Kent, but he's bulletproof.

[Ride-The-Waves]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

 

I don't know what they're doing internally and behind the scenes, but if 10% got out based on that data, they screwed up somewhere. You're may be surprised, but I agree messaging is a big problem down in Atlanta. Especially the last 15 months or so. Contrary to the opinion that the CDC is too political, you can find essays out there from former Directors that they're so disconnected from politics that they lose top cover, and highly technical people just don't seem to understand the impact of communication, because they went there to do science. And the 10% just reeks of a bad Dilbert cartoon: PAO: How much transmission occurs outside? Researcher: We're not really sure. Some studies we reviewed are as low as 0.1%, some as high as almost 10%, but all the studies have problems. It's probably less than 1%, but we don't know. PAO: So, less than 10%. Researcher: All the studies are less than 10%. Press release: CDC estimates no more than 10% of transmission occurs outdoors!  Researcher returns to their happy place with spreadsheets and review articles happy to be rid of the PAO.

 

The cruise guidance that started this thread has those same issues. Those are really guidance documents to industry, not to cruisers. Yes, the requirements, unless changed, will pass through, but they're designed to tell industry how to develop plans and what to address. But since there's nothing else out there in a more traditional public facing space, they're the only game in town. If this is an area now being worked, there should be at least a simple public facing site on how is the CDC addressing returning to cruising or returning to travel. What is there just isn't that.

 

I agree completely on Dr. Fauci. He was vilified pretty much on this board, and plenty of other places. But he has so many advantages over anyone else in the federal health world. Everyone I know who's ever been to anything he spoke at or attended will tell you that first and foremost he is brilliant. He's an advisor in this space; he gets to give his professional opinion. The CDC Director is by definition a policy maker, so anything she says can be interpreted as policy. Fauci has one of the most unique appointments in the federal government. He's not a political nominee or  traditional appointee. He's on a highly specialized excepted appointment as NIAID Director. He was first hired into that position to work HIV/AIDS by an administration that was still looking for lifestyle reasons for developing AIDS that didn't involve HIV. And around 40 years of doing that have left him pretty capable of holding his own in any administration. He may look like Clark Kent, but he's bulletproof.

While under the previous Guy the CDC became politicized, it has a long history of focusing solely on the safety and health of Americans.  The current director Dr Walensky is eminently qualified as a physician, scientist and administrator.  Belittling her doesn't help anyone's position.  Since incumbency she has done a lot to clean out the previous infestation at CDC.

[K.T.B.]

1 hour ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

While under the previous Guy the CDC became politicized, it has a long history of focusing solely on the safety and health of Americans.  The current director Dr Walensky is eminently qualified as a physician, scientist and administrator.  Belittling her doesn't help anyone's position.  Since incumbency she has done a lot to clean out the previous infestation at CDC.

 

And yet she couldn't answer a simple yes or no question that Dr. Fauci had already answered days before.  She was asked about whether masks still needed to be worn outside.  And, yes, I'll hammer away at that because anyone who is somewhat sensible knew the answer to it.  She had to "refer it to other people" and get back to the reporter with a response later on.  That does not exactly "scream" qualified, IMHO.  

 

Seriously, if not for Dr. Fauci recommending mask, social distancing, etc., I truly wonder what the CDC would've done.  Because all they did as follow suit and recommend what he said what to do.  I'd LOVE to know what his views/recommendations for cruise lines are, even though it's not under his purview.  Perhaps his opinion would be enough...

 

The ineptitude of the CDC the past 15 months or so does not instill me with much confidence that they know what they're doing in focusing on the safety and health of Americans.

[PTC DAWG]

3 hours ago, Oceangoer2 said:

I wondered when someone would mention  "how did we get to meat packing plants".....in this discussion going nowhere.  I've been waiting for the few to get over themselves and run down.

I miss all the good stuff.  

[K.T.B.]

1 hour ago, PTC DAWG said:

I miss all the good stuff.  

 

Yeah, the BBQ was awesome!  

[ECCruise]

1 hour ago, Dwight1 said:

Being vaccinated solves all the problems as then a madk is redundant/ it’s use was strictly needed as before since there was no vaccine available, not the case now. I would be surprised if most of the better cruise lines don’t mandate all passengers be vaccinated. Some at the lower end like Carnival will probably not. Simply two different rules will exist.

Azamara released their parameters for sailing just a couple of hours ago.

 

+ 100% vaccination of pax and crew (absolutely no exceptions).

+ Masks to be worn anywhere physical distancing cannot be maintained, but not when dining or in staterooms.

+ Buffets will now be served by crew rather than self-service, and more covered or wrapped grab-and-go items will be made available for your convenience around the ship. 

+ As soon as guests arrive onboard, they will be escorted directly to their muster station, where a member of the ship’s team will go over the safety information in person.

+ Reduced pax load (but nothing in specifics).

[DirtyDawg]

18 hours ago, harkinmr said:

It's all the cruise media.  They are on the same rampage as Del Rio.  No one else cares.  And Jim Cramer is a blowhard.  Pure entertainment.

Jim Cramer a Blowhard. How dare you!

Didn't you know that Jim and Kevin O'Leary (Shark Tank) are the best investors in the Universe!

Of course, that universe exists only in the heads of Jim and Kevin.  😊