Cruise capacity limits as Covid protocol?

[Hlitner]

3 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

I recall reading that the US CDC had recommended that mask wearing may not be necessary, however that decision isn't consistent with all jurisdictions. In BC, after a slow start with vaccinations, we have now achieved > 72% of adults with the first jab and 70% of 12-18 yr olds. Even with these impressive numbers, the BC CDC still recommends wearing masks and most of our businesses still make them mandatory. The UK, with higher vaccination ratse to both Canada & US also still requires masks in many situations.

 

The US CDC requirements are only applicable to US ports/waters, so are not applicable to our preferred Line, who has no cruises planned for US Waters until at least November. The US CDC requirements are also a minimum stardard, with our preferred Line requiring higher standards in many areas.

 

Once the mega ships resume operations, I agree that it will be very interesting watching the competing interests regarding vaccination status, masks, social distancing, ability to leave the ship, etc.

I am very supportive of the Canadian philosophy and trust that my Canadian friends will enjoy a few more years of restrictions, lock downs, etc.  I should add that our best Canadian friends from Calgary are still living at their Puerto Vallarta home because they cannot bring themselves to return to their home country.  

 

We are in agreement that the CDC does not, technically or legally, have any influence on ships that do not call at US Ports.  That is why 5 of our 6 booked cruises do not have any connection with any US Port.  With our CDC being "wishy washy" and issuing contradictory Statements and policies on an almost weekly basis we do not want to put our future travel plans at their mercy (wonder if they have any mercy).

 

As to COVID standards on ships, my personal preference is a 100% mandatory vaccination policy with zero COVID-related restrictions on board.  This is in line with real science and even the words of our own CDC Director who has said (several times) that fully vaccinated folks do not get or spread COVID. (we do acknowledge there are some very rare and statistically insignificant exceptions).

 

Hank

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

As to COVID standards on ships, my personal preference is a 100% mandatory vaccination policy with zero COVID-related restrictions on board.  This is in line with real science and even the words of our own CDC Director who has said (several times) that fully vaccinated folks do not get or spread COVID. (we do acknowledge there are some very rare and statistically insignificant exceptions).

 

Hank

 

The US CDC messaging on vaccine effectiveness is also inconsistent with other jurisdictions and even the WHO. The messaging from the BC CDC is consistent with the WHO. The BC CDC encourages everyone to be vaccinated as they dramatically reduce the chance of getting COVID and provides near perfect protection from hospitalisation, if a vaccinated person gets COVID.

 

This message is consistent with WHO.

 

Therefore, my preference is for 100% vaccinations for the foreseeable future, with additional protections to ensure initial cruises are COVID free. The additional protections can be relaxed once all countries reach heard immunity and worldwide infections wane.

 

It only requires a couple of infections for the media to jump on the bandwagon and again shut down the industry.

[Hlitner]

43 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

The US CDC messaging on vaccine effectiveness is also inconsistent with other jurisdictions and even the WHO. The messaging from the BC CDC is consistent with the WHO. The BC CDC encourages everyone to be vaccinated as they dramatically reduce the chance of getting COVID and provides near perfect protection from hospitalisation, if a vaccinated person gets COVID.

 

This message is consistent with WHO.

 

Therefore, my preference is for 100% vaccinations for the foreseeable future, with additional protections to ensure initial cruises are COVID free. The additional protections can be relaxed once all countries reach heard immunity and worldwide infections wane.

 

It only requires a couple of infections for the media to jump on the bandwagon and again shut down the industry.

"Once all countries reach herd immunity?"  If that is your standard you might need to be around for a few hundred years or longer.  The concept of global "herd immunity" for a virulent virus (that is constantly mutating) without a long lasting vaccine is simply a myth!   I can only think of one virus (in history) for which herd immunity may have been achieved and that would be Smallpox.  But that virus still survived over 1000 years.  And something akin to herd immunity was only achieved more then 200 years after we had a very effective long lasting (perhaps lifetime) vaccine.    But not to fear because you can achieve herd immunity in Canada.  All you need to do is keep your country closed off from the entire world forever and get everyone vaccinated (including necessary periodic boosters).  That should work.  Come to think of it perhaps that is Justin's plan.

 

 

 

Hank

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I think you and I can agree to disagree on the CDC issue but I do agree with much of your first sentence.

 

Hank

Frustrated wannabe cruisers disliking the CDC for their actions in the COVID environment is somewhat comparable to high school kids disliking the police because they stop them when speeding.

Edited June 5, 2021 by navybankerteacher

[Hlitner]

54 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Frustrated wannabe cruisers disliking the CDC for their actions in the COVID environment is somewhat comparable to high school kids disliking the police because they stop them when speeding.

My issues with the CDC go far beyond their cruise policies (or lack thereof).  But rather then writing a book about it perhaps you might just want to google "CDC missteps" or anything similar and then spend the next hour reading.   And what makes it even more sad is this agency has received $Billions over many decades with their primary reason for being to prepare for something like a pandemic.  When the time came they failed and failed miserably.   

 

Hank

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

My issues with the CDC go far beyond their cruise policies (or lack thereof).  But rather then writing a book about it perhaps you might just want to google "CDC missteps" or anything similar and then spend the next hour reading.   And what makes it even more sad is this agency has received $Billions over many decades with their primary reason for being to prepare for something like a pandemic.  When the time came they failed and failed miserably.   

 

Hank

As a cruise aficionado I can understand your impatience - but you should remember that the CDC’s (Center for Disease Control) mandate is to Control Disease - they are not something like Continue Desired Cruising — so, while they may not be perfect, they are doing their job in a difficult environment -dealing with a previously UN encountered adversary, and they have no obligation to the cruise industry, or to people who want to cruise regardless of the risks, consequences, etc.  and if they step on a few toes while doing their job - they are still doing their job.

 

p.s. By the way - the fact that COVID seems to be coming under CONTROL - their “failure” is not as “miserable” as you like to contend.

 

Sorry about that.

Edited June 5, 2021 by navybankerteacher

[Hlitner]

52 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

As a cruise aficionado I can understand your impatience - but you should remember that the CDC’s (Center for Disease Control) mandate is to Control Disease - they are not something like Continue Desired Cruising — so, while they may not be perfect, they are doing their job in a difficult environment -dealing with a previously UN encountered adversary, and they have no obligation to the cruise industry, or to people who want to cruise regardless of the risks, consequences, etc.  and if they step on a few toes while doing their job - they are still doing their job.

 

p.s. By the way - the fact that COVID seems to be coming under CONTROL - their “failure” is not as “miserable” as you like to contend.

 

Sorry about that.

Ok, I want to avoid politics but simply deal with facts.  The ONLY reason COVID has come under control in the USA (and is coming under control in other countries) is because of the availability and use of amazing vaccines.  In the USA, the reason we have such a surplus of vaccines goes back to a single government program called Operation Warp Speed and some assistance given by the NIH to Moderna and some other pharm companies.  History will show that particular program saved many lives and also put our country into our current situation.  The CDC had very little to do with Operation Warp Speed for which most of the credit should go to a White House Committee (Chaired by Vice President Pence) and the strong support of President Trump.  President Biden doubled down on those efforts by continuing the program, exercising options for more vaccines, and making some good modifications to the distribution plan.   Very little of this involved the CDC although they did have a seat at the table.

 

So what did the CDC have to do with vaccines?  Very little.  What did the CDC have to do with testing programs?  Well, while some small countries such as South Korea were testing much of their population with various tests, the CDC was trying to deal with their own efforts to  distribute an approved test (their first efforts failed miserably).  I will not even waste my time moving along the time line of their mishaps (I suggested you could simply use Google and find plenty of stuff to read).

 

From where I stand the CDC did very little to nothing to help our country with COVID.  They should have quickly issued a nationwide warning (as early as Feb 2020) for all Nursing Homes and Adult Communities to lock down.  Instead they were caught up in the public relations  related to "PPG" and the constant push for more testing.  To this day it is very difficult to get a Standard PCR test here in Central PA....but when I lived in Puerto Vallarta last winter I could have simply walked down the street to get just about any test (including PCR, Antigen, Antibody, etc).  Go figure.  In fact, we will need Standard PCR tests for an upcoming trip and must drive 1 1/2 hours each way to the only lab we can find that can do the required test and guarantee the results within the required time frames.  Why is this the case in the USA?  I guess you could talk to somebody at the CDC who would give you a non answer while still signing the song that "more folks need to get tested."

 

So, while the CDC was pushing testing (which only serves to feed their statistics) the White House, FDA, NIH, and President were working on vaccines.  And to this day, the CDC while admitting that vaccines work well, refuse to accept them for entry into the USA.  It is interesting that the EU has already recommended that their member countries admit those who have been fully vaccinated while the USA is still stuck on using somewhat unreliable Antigen tests while completely ignoring vaccinations.  And this is all the CDC!    So I guess you do not want to know what I really think :).  As to cruising, if a ship required 100% vaccinated folks onboard why can't they sail tomorrow?  I have no clue nor does anyone in the cruise industry.  Just ask the CDC who also has no clue...but continues to jerk around the industry with hints that maybe (or maybe not) they will be able to begin operations in a few weeks.  

 

By the way, since you seem to be a big fan of the CDC perhaps you can explain to me why a 7 day cruise would be OK, but an 8 day cruise would not be OK (this is part of the CDC's Conditional Sail Order).  What on earth does the length of a cruise have to do with COVID safety?  And consider that a longer cruise means fewer folks moving through the system which actually lowers risk. Oh and here is another question.  If I want to take back to back 7 day cruises that is probably against the CDC Conditional Sail Order.  But if I get off a ship, walk a few hundred yards down the pier and get on a different ship, that would be fine with the CDC?  Explain please.

 

Hank

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

As a cruise aficionado I can understand your impatience - but you should remember that the CDC’s (Center for Disease Control) mandate is to Control Disease - they are not something like Continue Desired Cruising — so, while they may not be perfect, they are doing their job in a difficult environment -dealing with a previously UN encountered adversary, and they have no obligation to the cruise industry, or to people who want to cruise regardless of the risks, consequences, etc.  and if they step on a few toes while doing their job - they are still doing their job.

 

p.s. By the way - the fact that COVID seems to be coming under CONTROL - their “failure” is not as “miserable” as you like to contend.

 

Sorry about that.

Again.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Ok, I want to avoid politics but simply deal with facts.  The ONLY reason COVID has come under control in the USA (and is coming under control in other countries) is because of the availability and use of amazing vaccines.  In the USA, the reason we have such a surplus of vaccines goes back to a single government program called Operation Warp Speed and some assistance given by the NIH to Moderna and some other pharm companies.  History will show that particular program saved many lives and also put our country into our current situation.  The CDC had very little to do with Operation Warp Speed for which most of the credit should go to a White House Committee (Chaired by Vice President Pence) and the strong support of President Trump.  President Biden doubled down on those efforts by continuing the program, exercising options for more vaccines, and making some good modifications to the distribution plan.   Very little of this involved the CDC although they did have a seat at the table.

 

So what did the CDC have to do with vaccines?  Very little.  What did the CDC have to do with testing programs?  Well, while some small countries such as South Korea were testing much of their population with various tests, the CDC was trying to deal with their own efforts to  distribute an approved test (their first efforts failed miserably).  I will not even waste my time moving along the time line of their mishaps (I suggested you could simply use Google and find plenty of stuff to read).

 

From where I stand the CDC did very little to nothing to help our country with COVID.  They should have quickly issued a nationwide warning (as early as Feb 2020) for all Nursing Homes and Adult Communities to lock down.  Instead they were caught up in the public relations  related to "PPG" and the constant push for more testing.  To this day it is very difficult to get a Standard PCR test here in Central PA....but when I lived in Puerto Vallarta last winter I could have simply walked down the street to get just about any test (including PCR, Antigen, Antibody, etc).  Go figure.  In fact, we will need Standard PCR tests for an upcoming trip and must drive 1 1/2 hours each way to the only lab we can find that can do the required test and guarantee the results within the required time frames.  Why is this the case in the USA?  I guess you could talk to somebody at the CDC who would give you a non answer while still signing the song that "more folks need to get tested."

 

So, while the CDC was pushing testing (which only serves to feed their statistics) the White House, FDA, NIH, and President were working on vaccines.  And to this day, the CDC while admitting that vaccines work well, refuse to accept them for entry into the USA.  It is interesting that the EU has already recommended that their member countries admit those who have been fully vaccinated while the USA is still stuck on using somewhat unreliable Antigen tests while completely ignoring vaccinations.  And this is all the CDC!    So I guess you do not want to know what I really think :).  As to cruising, if a ship required 100% vaccinated folks onboard why can't they sail tomorrow?  I have no clue nor does anyone in the cruise industry.  Just ask the CDC who also has no clue...but continues to jerk around the industry with hints that maybe (or maybe not) they will be able to begin operations in a few weeks.  

 

By the way, since you seem to be a big fan of the CDC perhaps you can explain to me why a 7 day cruise would be OK, but an 8 day cruise would not be OK (this is part of the CDC's Conditional Sail Order).  What on earth does the length of a cruise have to do with COVID safety?  And consider that a longer cruise means fewer folks moving through the system which actually lowers risk. Oh and here is another question.  If I want to take back to back 7 day cruises that is probably against the CDC Conditional Sail Order.  But if I get off a ship, walk a few hundred yards down the pier and get on a different ship, that would be fine with the CDC?  Explain please.

 

Hank

 

You seem to spend hours writing screeds against the CDC, yet claim to have a neutral viewpoint. Perhaps time to figure out how to unwind a bit before you bust a sprocket.

 

Public health is a mixture of science and policy by its nature. Scientists have to make pragmatic rules that people can follow. 

 

You can't sit and argue on both sides of the fence, e.g., that CDC wants "zero risk" (they don't), and then also pour scorn on their more practical decisions (e.g., requirement for only 7-day cruises). I'm sure the policy makers know quite well that there is a gradual decrease/increase in risk based on time spent among the same group (as on a cruise).  There was likely a discussion about what length would strike a balance between reasonable risks, and then they chose an interval that made some sense.

 

You might just as well ask why tetanus shots are required every 10 years or why it is required that restaurants undergo a hygiene inspection twice a year. Is a restaurant really likely to be less clean on day 184 than on day 182?  Is a person completely protected from tetanus at 9 years and 11 months or completely unprotected at 10 years and one week?  Of course not. But given the inherent risks in each situation, this is what policymakers have come up with as the best "reasonable" schedule.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[2wheelin]

11 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I guess you could talk to somebody at the CDC who would give you a non answer while still signing the song that "more folks need to get tested."

 

So, while the CDC was pushing testing (which only serves to feed their statistics) the White House, FDA, NIH, and President were working on vaccines. .

 

Hank

Interesting anecdote here to show the ridiculousness of the statistics. I’m sure hospitals are considering CDC guidelines in their policies. Yesterday, my granddaughter was involved in a car accident and received a concussion. Her mother took her to the emergency room (large, very well known hospital) but was not allowed to wait in the building with her because she was on Covid precautions. (The only place they could suggest for her to wait was in her car—it was 100 degrees out). She presented with a symptom (headache) so needed to be tested before her mother would be allowed to wait with her. The kicker is that they did the 12 hour PCR rather than the rapid test, so her mother would never have been allowed in while the daughter sat in the waiting room with all the other patients. But the statistics will show that a person with a covid sx tested negative.  Last summer a friend was told that he was classified as a covid positive pt because he had difficulty breathing when he went in with fractured ribs. Another statistic!

12 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

p.s. By the way - the fact that COVID seems to be coming under CONTROL - their “failure” is not as “miserable” as you like to contend.

CDC concedes masks are not necessary in most cases and most people have removed them. Whalla!! Masks removed and case numbers plummeting!! 😂 😂 

[navybankerteacher]

7 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

…

CDC concedes masks are not necessary in most cases and most people have removed them. Whalla!! Masks removed and case numbers plummeting!! 😂 😂 

Sounds like you are suggesting that stopping requiring masks is the reason case numbers are plummeting?  Why not consider the possibility that widespread vaccinating has made us turn that corner? And that CDC simply recognized that, once the contagion came under control as a result of wide-spread vaccination, mask-based limitation of contagion was no longer necessary.

 

 

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, 2wheelin said:

 

CDC concedes masks are not necessary in most cases and most people have removed them. Whalla!! Masks removed and case numbers plummeting!! 😂 😂 

 

I see the emoji's.   Please let this be intended as a joke.  

[mammajamma2013]

On 5/25/2021 at 7:45 PM, Hlitner said:

Early in the pandemic we used to hear many officials say, "we must flatten the curve."  One day I said to my DW, "When you flatten a curve you elongate that same curve."  So while you might defer a very nasty situation the price you pay is you will often elongate the overall mess. 

 

Hank

Yes, when you flatten a curve you elongate it. The stated reason to flatten the curve was to keep health care facilities from being overwhelmed, not to eradicate the virus. Even with the flattening attempt, many facilities were overwhelmed, so much so that both Texas and Arizona were transfering COVID patients to New Mexico hospitals. NM has limited hospital capacity, especially compared to TX and AZ.

[2wheelin]

5 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Sounds like you are suggesting that stopping requiring masks is the reason case numbers are plummeting?  Why not consider the possibility that widespread vaccinating has made us turn that corner? And that CDC simply recognized that, once the contagion came under control as a result of wide-spread vaccination, mask-based limitation of contagion was no longer necessary.

 

 

You need to learn to read emojis. Must be the teacher aspect that makes you assume everyone else is stupid.

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, 2wheelin said:

You need to learn to read emojis. Must be the teacher aspect that makes you assume everyone else is stupid.

My assumptions are based upon what a poster writes - not upon a guess about his/her understanding/misunderstanding of the emojis tacked on.

[momofmeg]

On 5/24/2021 at 2:54 PM, navybankerteacher said:

With airlines already filling middle seats, why would expect cruise lines to have restricted capacity for very long - especially if vaccination is required.

 Florida made it illegal to require vaccinations. Plus, you are on a flight a few hours unless you're flying to Japan or Australia.  A ship you are on for days. So, yes, it is a concern. 

[ontheweb]

24 minutes ago, momofmeg said:

 Florida made it illegal to require vaccinations. Plus, you are on a flight a few hours unless you're flying to Japan or Australia.  A ship you are on for days. So, yes, it is a concern. 

The cruise lines sailing out of Florida at the moment seem to have found a workaround for the Florida law. They are asking for voluntary showing of proof of vaccination. If you are unwilling, you are considered unvaccinated, and are treated differently. You have to pay for Covid testing. You have to wear a mask. You can only go on bubble excursions to get off the ship. Certain areas are off limits to you.

[momofmeg]

On 7/7/2021 at 2:02 PM, ontheweb said:

The cruise lines sailing out of Florida at the moment seem to have found a workaround for the Florida law. They are asking for voluntary showing of proof of vaccination. If you are unwilling, you are considered unvaccinated, and are treated differently. You have to pay for Covid testing. You have to wear a mask. You can only go on bubble excursions to get off the ship. Certain areas are off limits to you.

Yes, I read Clark Howard's article if you don't want to say  you are required to wear a mask at all times. 

[momofmeg]

On 6/5/2021 at 2:40 PM, navybankerteacher said:

Frustrated wannabe cruisers disliking the CDC for their actions in the COVID environment is somewhat comparable to high school kids disliking the police because they stop them when speeding.

  A better comparison is those kids who staged a protest for not wearing a mask  on their  flight to the Bahamas. Their flight got canceled. All that trouble accomplished nothing but a canceled vacation.

[Luckiestmanonearth]

On 7/7/2021 at 2:02 PM, ontheweb said:

The cruise lines sailing out of Florida at the moment seem to have found a workaround for the Florida law. They are asking for voluntary showing of proof of vaccination. If you are unwilling, you are considered unvaccinated, and are treated differently. You have to pay for Covid testing. You have to wear a mask. You can only go on bubble excursions to get off the ship. Certain areas are off limits to you.

Bravo to the cruise lines for finding a work around for that ridiculous law

 

Actually there are cases where unvaxed passengers got off the ship without a ship approved excursion and they were booted off the ship at that port.  Good for them