Harmony Just Caused Space X launch Cancellation

[BirdTravels]

5 hours ago, Oceansaway17 said:

But sounds to me a big ship of paying passengers over rules at rocket with a couple of paying passengers.     I say good going Harmony.   

Big ship violating exclusion zone gets big big big big fine. The loss on the cruise (i.e., not breaking even to start with) just got a much bigger with  the captain and bridge crew at fault. 

[coaster]

8 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

Regardless of a finding of willful violation, time for a Captain to "retire". 

I would wait for the Coast Guard investigation to conclude before making a statement like that.

[Spif Barwunkel]

It is difficult for me to think that this was a willful violation. It is also difficult for me to believe that the captain, or any other bridge officer for that matter, was not aware of the "events of the day" at the Kennedy Space Center and their duty to know and maintain ships protocol and responsibility. There is definitely going to be repercussions as a result of this event. Indeed, it is a serious matter. 

[wayne_trisha]

1 hour ago, flamingos said:

No ships tonight: she's up!

It was an interesting night in the surveillance room. There were numerous targets of interest including four cruise ships. Fortunately for all of us on the launch team they stayed out of the hazard area.

[wayne_trisha]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Sheriff's boat has no jurisdiction past the jetties.  USCG does not have a VTS (vessel tracking service) in the Miami area, so they would not be tracking vessels like air traffic control does.  Not sure if there were cutters out patrolling the area.  It is not that the USCG would be "relaying risk factors" to the Captain, but if a cutter determined that the ship was inside the zone, they should have been calling on 16 and telling them to get out.  It is not a matter of "risk factor", that exclusion zone is a matter of law, and violation can lead to fines, as I've said earlier, up to $250k.  As a law enforcement agency, the USCG has every right to notify the Captain of a vessel that he is in violation of a regulation.

I heard the USCG working diligently to get Harmony out of the hazard area. We have one or two USCG personnel in our room for launches because they have the authority to tell ships/boats what to do. 

[link99]

Thanks to everyone for their expert Documentation.

[flamingos]

49 minutes ago, wayne_trisha said:

I heard the USCG working diligently to get Harmony out of the hazard area. We have one or two USCG personnel in our room for launches because they have the authority to tell ships/boats what to do. 

So how did this happen? 

 

[libertyelle]

2 hours ago, Biker19 said:

Enchantment was still in port. 

 

This was our view of the launch from Enchantment. It was incredible! The sonic boom from the first stage landing rattled the ship. Our all aboard time was 6:30p, so the timing worked out perfectly.

 

[OnTheJourney]

55 minutes ago, libertyelle said:

This was our view of the launch from Enchantment.

Absolutely awesome!!!  

[ReneeFLL]

11 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Not if the fine is imposed by the USCG.  There is a perfectly safe course to enter/depart the port without entering the exclusion zone, which is why it was designed that way, and why the USCG did not suspend port operations during the launch, if there was no safe passage.

 

There are also possible proceedings against the Captain's license, if this is shown to be a willful violation.

Why would a captain willfully ignore an exclusion zone?

[chengkp75]

15 hours ago, Oceansaway17 said:

hmm first I heard of this story.  I did not see it on the Yahoo threads.

But sounds to me a big ship of paying passengers over rules at rocket with a couple of paying passengers.     I say good going Harmony.   ok Indy it is your turn next.  Also Disney ships go out of P Canaveral so let's get them in on the action too.

Great going!  The ship violated a USCG regulation, not a space launch.  What level of violation of the laws of the seas is acceptable for "a big ship of paying passengers"?

9 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

Regardless of a finding of willful violation, time for a Captain to "retire". 

Way too premature on this.  Even if its found that he didn't include discussion of this with the bridge team, or see it in the passage plan, it would at most be a temporary suspension of his document, more likely a warning.

9 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

Big ship violating exclusion zone gets big big big big fine. The loss on the cruise (i.e., not breaking even to start with) just got a much bigger with  the captain and bridge crew at fault. 

Yes, a fine would wipe out any possible revenue from the cruise.

8 hours ago, flamingos said:

So how did this happen? 

 

If the USCG was calling the ship, telling it to get out of the zone, that's about all they can do.  They're not going to send a cutter to swerve in front of the ship to get it to divert out of the zone, and they would prefer to get the ship out of the zone as quickly as possible, rather than try to board it, go through the whole legal dance of taking control of the vessel, and then get it out of the zone.

6 hours ago, ReneeFLL said:

Why would a captain willfully ignore an exclusion zone?

Hard to say.   Could be they didn't feel that there was a viable course outside the zone, due to water depth, could be they didn't realize exactly where they were, could be an error in entering the zone on the ECDIS giving them the false impression they were outside the zone?  Could be they felt like Oceansaway, that they were more important.

[pstone1]

9 hours ago, libertyelle said:

 

This was our view of the launch from Enchantment. It was incredible! The sonic boom from the first stage landing rattled the ship. Our all aboard time was 6:30p, so the timing worked out perfectly.

 

I’m so glad those on EN were able to view such a perfect launch!  The Booster landing last evening was also spectacular (and such a treat) even for those of us living on the Space Coast!

[alfaeric]

Chief- one more "question"- it was reported that SpaceX scrubbed the launch with 30 seconds left.  Any thoughts why they waited?  Given all of the location maps that the Harmony was located- it seemed pretty clear that it would take some considerable time to get out of the zone.  Like a few min.

 

All of the < 10 min procedures could have been scrubbed when it was clear that there wasn't time for the ship to clear the zone- even if they went the fastest way out of the zone.

 

While it's clear that the ship was very much in the wrong- it seems that SpaceX could have at least not spend the time and effort for final preparations.

[chengkp75]

59 minutes ago, alfaeric said:

Chief- one more "question"- it was reported that SpaceX scrubbed the launch with 30 seconds left.  Any thoughts why they waited?  Given all of the location maps that the Harmony was located- it seemed pretty clear that it would take some considerable time to get out of the zone.  Like a few min.

 

All of the < 10 min procedures could have been scrubbed when it was clear that there wasn't time for the ship to clear the zone- even if they went the fastest way out of the zone.

 

While it's clear that the ship was very much in the wrong- it seems that SpaceX could have at least not spend the time and effort for final preparations.

Since I'm not a rocket scientist, I really can't say.  Where was the launch time in relation to the active time for the exclusion zone?  Could they have delayed a few minutes, or would the zone have expired, or the launch window closed?  I haven't tracked the ship's position/course closely enough to see timelines clearly.

[alfaeric]

15 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Since I'm not a rocket scientist, I really can't say.  Where was the launch time in relation to the active time for the exclusion zone?  Could they have delayed a few minutes, or would the zone have expired, or the launch window closed?  I haven't tracked the ship's position/course closely enough to see timelines clearly.

From what you are suggesting in terms of the warnings and whatnot- the ship entered the zone pretty early in the process, so it wasn't a surprise it was there.

 

I don't think they could have delayed the launch in terms of waiting for the ship to exit.    But it seems to me they could have scrubbed 10 min earlier, as it was clear that the ship could not have cleared the zone in the time left.  Unless I'm mis-reading the scale of those maps- I guess what I'm asking you is how long would it have taken to leave the zone from where they were, or if there was a redirection option to leave the zone- like going farther east- which would have cleared the zone in time.

 

The 30 sec left scrub time makes it seem that the ship was a surprise- which it really could not have been- it's not the fastest thing in the world, and once it entered the zone, the time it takes to get out would be reasonably calculated.  Even with the turn south.

[Rayhorn]

@alfaeric

 

I think harmony crossed into the exclusion zone just prior to the abort.

 

The coast guard was aware of her position and it sounds like they were attempting to get her to turn away but once she crossed over they called for the abort. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Rayhorn

[alfaeric]

47 minutes ago, Rayhorn said:

@alfaeric

 

I think harmony crossed into the exclusion zone just prior to the abort.

 

The coast guard was aware of her position and it sounds like they were attempting to get her to turn away but once she crossed over they called for the abort. 

Based on the maps posted- I find it hard to believe that it crossed into the zone 30 seconds prior to launch.   If that were the case, then a 30 second pause could have happened to tell the ship to move back out again.

 

Also, if it were that close, then some extra communications may have helped- as the direction of the ship going into the zone would have been known for a few min.  

[grandgeezer]

If the Coast Guard investigation shows the allegation is true, the cruise line should reimburse Space X the $1.5 million it cost them, plus a hefty fine, and the Captain should be terminated. It is his responsibility to make sure all laws and regulations are followed.

When the mission was scrubbed has no relevance to the situation.

[alfaeric]

23 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

If the Coast Guard investigation shows the allegation is true, the cruise line should reimburse Space X the $1.5 million it cost them, plus a hefty fine, and the Captain should be terminated. It is his responsibility to make sure all laws and regulations are followed.

When the mission was scrubbed has no relevance to the situation.

To what happens to the captain and what not- sure.

 

But to make sure this doesn't happen again, it is relevant.  If it was an accident, then somewhere in the process, it broke down- as a ship like that isn't suddenly going to move in an unexpected way.  If it was in the zone early, the flight should have been scrubbed earlier to save money and effort, it it was in the zone at 30 seconds, how in the world did an emergency message not get sent to the ship 5 min before then?  It takes time and space to move a ship, and it's also predictable- the tracking systems have projections in them.

 

It's just as important to prevent a future stop like this by communication system as it is to fine people, especially if there was a break down.

[chengkp75]

30 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

If the Coast Guard investigation shows the allegation is true, the cruise line should reimburse Space X the $1.5 million it cost them, plus a hefty fine, and the Captain should be terminated. It is his responsibility to make sure all laws and regulations are followed.

When the mission was scrubbed has no relevance to the situation.

If SpaceX wants their money, they are going to have to sue in civil court over it.  Whether there is a fine or not is up to the USCG, and SpaceX will see nothing of it.  And, I just love all the folks who want the Captain fired for every thing that goes wrong, without knowing virtually anything about what went on, or the maritime industry.  The industry, with the notable exception of Carnival Corp, has moved on from the "blame" culture, where the individual is punished for things gone wrong, and instead have graduated to a pro-active management system that looks for root causes of the incident and seeks ways to prevent them happening again, over simple punishment of an individual.

[teecee60]

17 hours ago, link99 said:

Thanks to everyone for their expert Documentation.

 

JEEZE... and I thought *I* was sarcastic! Nicely done!😆

[ymsc]

6 hours ago, alfaeric said:

Chief- one more "question"- it was reported that SpaceX scrubbed the launch with 30 seconds left.  Any thoughts why they waited?  Given all of the location maps that the Harmony was located- it seemed pretty clear that it would take some considerable time to get out of the zone.  Like a few min.

 

All of the < 10 min procedures could have been scrubbed when it was clear that there wasn't time for the ship to clear the zone- even if they went the fastest way out of the zone.

 

While it's clear that the ship was very much in the wrong- it seems that SpaceX could have at least not spend the time and effort for final preparations.

 

I watched this video from the daily mail where they do talk about this.  They knew about the ship ahead of time, but since they had started fueling the rocket it basically needed to launch on time.  They were just as confused about the old at first but the hold didn't last long before it was scrubbed.  If the ship was out earlier they could have waited.

The ship they are originally talking about was the MSC one that they could see, then they show the Harmony.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10458909/Cruise-ship-veered-Falcon-9-rockets-flightpath-hazard-area-forcing-SpaceX-stand-down.html#v-4943557343994661938

 

[eyecantwait]

21 hours ago, flamingos said:

No ships tonight: she's up!

What a great launch!

Edited February 1, 2022 by eyecantwait

[exm]

I highly doubt the Captain did this on purpose.

[eyecantwait]

8 hours ago, pstone1 said:

I’m so glad those on EN were able to view such a perfect launch!  The Booster landing last evening was also spectacular (and such a treat) even for those of us living on the Space Coast!

We usually watch launches from our yard in Orlando but decided to go over Monday night. (We'd gone over Friday night but it didn't go) We went to a lot of shuttle launches when the kids were little. Was really nice to see the beach full of people waiting for the launch.

So glad we went! The boom and rolling thunder after the boom were amazing.