Tipping now more important than ever

[ilikeanswers]

8 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Yes, there is. I am talking mostly about how tipping works here in the US, using examples of people that I know and situations that I've actually experienced. I always try to tip commensurate with the local economy when I travel and certainly would never gift a Land Cruiser (well, maybe to DW).

 

The best thing is to always research the payment culture of the country or even the locality you are visiting. Sometimes this can be difficult, on Google a lot of the first websites give you the tourist rates. Maybe that is also part of the problem with over generous tipping. I found expat sites are sites are usually the best for getting good local information especially in my case in English. 

[alc13]

I hesitate to jump in again - we're going in as many directions as there are spike proteins on a coronavirus - but tipping is complicated!  There are competing customs worldwide, vastly different needs and expectations among the recipients, and, frankly, different motives among the givers (is it for need?  is it to ensure good service? is it because I am fortunate and want to be generous?).  

 

For myself, I detest this whole business because it is messy and inefficient.  But I always, always tip, usually generously, because there is a true and legitimate need for it in this crazy system.

[Peter Lanky]

27 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

People who are called to a profession aren't called for the money, they want to do the job regardless of how much they make. If they are more drawn by money then that indicates to me that they wouldn't make that great of a professional since they're in it for the wrong reason. 

 

I think many people would disagree with you on that. I can't think of many people I know who have had a 'calling' so to speak. They do it either because it pays well, or the prestige it brings.

 

26 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Ah, but if you are objecting to paying the employees tips you are doing exactly that.

 

I can't argue with the logic of that, but I could argue that restaurants do it that way because everyone else does, rather than it being an inspired part of their business plan.

 

Just to add to a previous answer, when I dine out, I am choosing my establishment for the quality of the food on my plate, not the demeanour of the person bringing it to my table.

[alc13]

6 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

I think many people would disagree with you on that. I can't think of many people I know who have had a 'calling' so to speak. They do it either because it pays well, or the prestige it brings.

 

Incorrect.  Some do work for money/prestige, but others  follow their passion, without regard for money OR prestige. I come from a family of passion-followers so I speak from experience. 

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I can't say agree with this premise either. I pick restaurants based on the food I want to eat. If the food I want is at a service restaurant then that is where I will eat. I don't tell the restauranter how to run their restaurant. They are running it how they want to run it so any staff they hire is solely their employee not mine. I will except the terms required to eat at their establishment but in no way am I ever going to consider myself as anyone's employer. The restaurant's business is not my responsibility, I'm just there to have a meal😂. 

Yet you want to tell the owner of the cruise line how to compensate his staff  --- rather selective application of principal.

[sparks1093]

54 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I think we have had a confusion here. I never said I object to paying tips where culturally appropriate but I do disagree about considering a waiter as my employee. For me a tip is merely an obligation enforced by society. I will pay it according to cultural norms but beyond that I don't see myself as having a responsibility for the waiter which I would have if they truly were my employee. 

Then my statement doesn't apply to you.

[sparks1093]

42 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

The best thing is to always research the payment culture of the country or even the locality you are visiting. Sometimes this can be difficult, on Google a lot of the first websites give you the tourist rates. Maybe that is also part of the problem with over generous tipping. I found expat sites are sites are usually the best for getting good local information especially in my case in English. 

I think that I advocated for this position rather early on in this thread but I do agree with this.

[sparks1093]

30 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

 

I think many people would disagree with you on that. I can't think of many people I know who have had a 'calling' so to speak. They do it either because it pays well, or the prestige it brings.

 

 

I can't argue with the logic of that, but I could argue that restaurants do it that way because everyone else does, rather than it being an inspired part of their business plan.

 

Just to add to a previous answer, when I dine out, I am choosing my establishment for the quality of the food on my plate, not the demeanour of the person bringing it to my table.

If a restaurant is doing it that way because everyone else does then isn't that a part of their business plan?

 

And the higher the quality of food on your plate the more it presupposes that the staff has the relevant training and/or experience in that environment to make your meal as pleasant as possible. 

 

 

[ontheweb]

5 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

 

And pragmatically a waiter is my employee for the time he is serving me. If he is skillful and enhances my meal he gets a bigger tip. Inept, indifferent service will earn him much less of a tip. (I have never received service so bad that I've left no tip.) The same applies to any employee receiving a tip from me, enhance my experience and earn more. 

We unfortunately received service so bad that not only I did not leave a tip, but the manager of the restaurant came over to our table and told us the meal was going to be comped.

 

We went out to eat for our wedding anniversary. We try as rule to eat by water as a tradition on our anniversary, and were at a restaurant with both a deck and an indoor dining room. The deck, and in fact when we entered, the entire restaurant was not busy. The waitress took our orders, and later returned with our salads. And then we waited and waited and waited and waited. I finally went inside and saw several tables that had been empty before we came having people eating. I went and asked about our order, and discovered that the waitress using one of those fancy i-phone like devices instead of the tried and true order pad had never placed our order into the kitchen.

 

She got zero as a tip, and that is what she earned.

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Yet you want to tell the owner of the cruise line how to compensate his staff  --- rather selective application of principal.

 

I am copy and pasting my post from #204 since the same answer applies:

I think we have had a confusion here. I never said I object to paying tips where culturally appropriate but I do disagree about considering a waiter as my employee. For me a tip is merely an obligation enforced by society. I will pay it according to cultural norms but beyond that I don't see myself as having a responsibility for the waiter which I would have if they truly were my employer

Edited February 11, 2022 by ilikeanswers

[ilikeanswers]

32 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

We unfortunately received service so bad that not only I did not leave a tip, but the manager of the restaurant came over to our table and told us the meal was going to be comped.

 

We went out to eat for our wedding anniversary. We try as rule to eat by water as a tradition on our anniversary, and were at a restaurant with both a deck and an indoor dining room. The deck, and in fact when we entered, the entire restaurant was not busy. The waitress took our orders, and later returned with our salads. And then we waited and waited and waited and waited. I finally went inside and saw several tables that had been empty before we came having people eating. I went and asked about our order, and discovered that the waitress using one of those fancy i-phone like devices instead of the tried and true order pad had never placed our order into the kitchen.

 

She got zero as a tip, and that is what she earned.

 

So did the waitress not record your order or did the computer app fail to send the order to the kitchen? 

[alc13]

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I think we have had a confusion here. I never said I object to paying tips where culturally appropriate but I do disagree about considering a waiter as my employee. For me a tip is merely an obligation enforced by society. I will pay it according to cultural norms but beyond that I don't see myself as having a responsibility for the waiter which I would have if they truly were my employee. 

You've gotten to the heart of the dilemma.  It is true that employers SHOULD bear responsibility for compensating their employees...  but in the hospitality industry, they've managed to shift some of that responsibility to the consumer.  Most people now accept tipping to be essentially obligatory in those settings.  

 

Not tipping when it is expected means reducing compensation that previously came from the employer, whether we like it or not.  Tips have evolved a long way from an extra little something signifying gratitude for a service.

[Peter Lanky]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Yet you want to tell the owner of the cruise line how to compensate his staff  --- rather selective application of principal.

I would rather tell the owner how to compensate his/her staff rather than the owner tell me how to compensate his/her staff.

 

I realise we are going round in circles a little, and there is minimal chance of anyone being influenced to change their mind by this discussion, but just think of all the difficult moral decisions, financial calculations and arguments that would be saved permanently if the employer (cruise line) simply paid it's staff the appropriate rate for the job based on a solid business plan, and charged the customer the appropriate up front cost for the full service based on the same business plan.

[Peter Lanky]

1 hour ago, alc13 said:

You've gotten to the heart of the dilemma.  It is true that employers SHOULD bear responsibility for compensating their employees...  but in the hospitality industry, they've managed to shift some of that responsibility to the consumer.  Most people now accept tipping to be essentially obligatory in those settings.  

 

Not tipping when it is expected means reducing compensation that previously came from the employer, whether we like it or not.  Tips have evolved a long way from an extra little something signifying gratitude for a service.

Consider this. In the UK we have a benefit called Universal Credit. One element of this benefit is to compensate low paid workers with a top up amount based on a complex formula that probably even the people who work for the government department that administers it don't understand.

 

Many unscrupulous employers, including huge multinationals, have cottoned on to this and have reduced staff hours, yet often still expecting the same work (as they can't legally go below the minimum hourly rate), so that the taxpayer ends up subsidising the employer with the result being huge salaries for directors, and good returns to shareholders. This is universally despised among the population, but we can't do anything about it at the moment, other than eventually vote for a government that promises to stop the practice.

 

Allowing employers to reduce their overheads by using tipping is exactly the same as this, and it should not become an accepted practice just because some people do it, because when anyone, be it an individual or a business, gets away with doing something negative, then they will push their luck further to see how far they can get.

 

It should also be the right of people who don't accept the practice on principle to not partake in it without being bullied of subject to name calling, in their own country at least. Thankfully there are enough restaurants in the UK that advertise the correct prices on their menus without adding a compulsory service charge, to enable myself and others to still be able to dine out without feeling angered or stressed.

 

Also the slow but very definite movement for more cruise lines to advertise the correct price in the brochure that includes everything rather suggests to me that they are also beginning to see the folly of the practice.

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

So did the waitress not record your order or did the computer app fail to send the order to the kitchen? 

I really do not know why or how the system failed. I do know the old tried and true method of using a pen to write it down never seems to fail, but we must have progress as technology is always seen as progress.🤦‍♂️

 

The manager who comped us blamed it on getting used to the new system. But it was an established restaurant who we had previously patronized. They had moved from a strip mall to their present location, but they had been at the new location for something like half a year. Any new kinks should have been long since worked out.

[ontheweb]

55 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Consider this. In the UK we have a benefit called Universal Credit. One element of this benefit is to compensate low paid workers with a top up amount based on a complex formula that probably even the people who work for the government department that administers it don't understand.

 

Many unscrupulous employers, including huge multinationals, have cottoned on to this and have reduced staff hours, yet often still expecting the same work (as they can't legally go below the minimum hourly rate), so that the taxpayer ends up subsidising the employer with the result being huge salaries for directors, and good returns to shareholders. This is universally despised among the population, but we can't do anything about it at the moment, other than eventually vote for a government that promises to stop the practice.

 

Allowing employers to reduce their overheads by using tipping is exactly the same as this, and it should not become an accepted practice just because some people do it, because when anyone, be it an individual or a business, gets away with doing something negative, then they will push their luck further to see how far they can get.

 

It should also be the right of people who don't accept the practice on principle to not partake in it without being bullied of subject to name calling, in their own country at least. Thankfully there are enough restaurants in the UK that advertise the correct prices on their menus without adding a compulsory service charge, to enable myself and others to still be able to dine out without feeling angered or stressed.

 

Also the slow but very definite movement for more cruise lines to advertise the correct price in the brochure that includes everything rather suggests to me that they are also beginning to see the folly of the practice.

Even setting aside the issue about tipping, I really do not see real movement towards posting real final prices. You will often see a footnote about port fees of x to y dollars will be added. Also, one price will be given, and then in another footnote it will be noted it is for only one of the dates listed.

[cruisemom42]

4 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

People who are called to a profession aren't called for the money, they want to do the job regardless of how much they make.

 

The problem I have with this philosophy is that someone who is "called" to be a doctor often has to pay tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to become properly trained to perform that calling. And in countries like the US it is the person being trained who is on the line for the cost. The debt being racked up is crippling in many cases. There has to be a balance or you will find fewer and fewer of the "called" going into medicine because they simply cannot afford to do so.

 

I work closely with an association of veterinarians, who have to undergo nearly as much training as doctors (albeit not specialists) and have nearly as much debt -- with a lower fee structure than doctors. It's recently been in the news that veterinarians have one of the highest suicide rates of any profession, and student debt is considered to be a strong contributing factor.

 

 

 

[bonsai3s]

5 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

The problem I have with this philosophy is that someone who is "called" to be a doctor often has to pay tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to become properly trained to perform that calling. And in countries like the US it is the person being trained who is on the line for the cost. The debt being racked up is crippling in many cases. There has to be a balance or you will find fewer and fewer of the "called" going into medicine because they simply cannot afford to do so.

 

I work closely with an association of veterinarians, who have to undergo nearly as much training as doctors (albeit not specialists) and have nearly as much debt -- with a lower fee structure than doctors. It's recently been in the news that veterinarians have one of the highest suicide rates of any profession, and student debt is considered to be a strong contributing factor.

 

 

 

 

A friend called us recently.  She's a doctor.  She said she received an email from a cruise line offering a job on a ship.  Salary starting at $36,000 per month.

[sparks1093]

39 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

The problem I have with this philosophy is that someone who is "called" to be a doctor often has to pay tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to become properly trained to perform that calling. And in countries like the US it is the person being trained who is on the line for the cost. The debt being racked up is crippling in many cases. There has to be a balance or you will find fewer and fewer of the "called" going into medicine because they simply cannot afford to do so.

 

I work closely with an association of veterinarians, who have to undergo nearly as much training as doctors (albeit not specialists) and have nearly as much debt -- with a lower fee structure than doctors. It's recently been in the news that veterinarians have one of the highest suicide rates of any profession, and student debt is considered to be a strong contributing factor.

 

 

 

Yes, here it is expensive to become a doctor. I suspect that is not necessarily the case in other parts of the world.

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

Consider this. In the UK we have a benefit called Universal Credit. One element of this benefit is to compensate low paid workers with a top up amount based on a complex formula that probably even the people who work for the government department that administers it don't understand.

 

Many unscrupulous employers, including huge multinationals, have cottoned on to this and have reduced staff hours, yet often still expecting the same work (as they can't legally go below the minimum hourly rate), so that the taxpayer ends up subsidising the employer with the result being huge salaries for directors, and good returns to shareholders. This is universally despised among the population, but we can't do anything about it at the moment, other than eventually vote for a government that promises to stop the practice.

 

Allowing employers to reduce their overheads by using tipping is exactly the same as this, and it should not become an accepted practice just because some people do it, because when anyone, be it an individual or a business, gets away with doing something negative, then they will push their luck further to see how far they can get.

 

It should also be the right of people who don't accept the practice on principle to not partake in it without being bullied of subject to name calling, in their own country at least. Thankfully there are enough restaurants in the UK that advertise the correct prices on their menus without adding a compulsory service charge, to enable myself and others to still be able to dine out without feeling angered or stressed.

 

Also the slow but very definite movement for more cruise lines to advertise the correct price in the brochure that includes everything rather suggests to me that they are also beginning to see the folly of the practice.

So much for government assuring everyone a “living wage”.

 

But the point not considered is the possible value of incentive compensation: rewarding people for good work.  And when the work is serving drinks or meals or maintaining staterooms the quality of the work is best measured by the person receiving that service.

[Peter Lanky]

45 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Yes, here it is expensive to become a doctor. I suspect that is not necessarily the case in other parts of the world.

It's expensive in the UK but nothing on the scale of the US cost. When I was at university (not studying medicine) in the 1970s, a medical student not only paid no fees, but got a grant towards their living costs, as did all other students. This ended in 1998 when our prime minister decided that students will pay fees, which with doctors having longer courses, mean the overall cost is higher at £9,250 pa for 5 years payable over 30 years after graduation, but still means the training is achievable by anyone with the right exam results.

[Peter Lanky]

15 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

So much for government assuring everyone a “living wage”.

 

But the point not considered is the possible value of incentive compensation: rewarding people for good work.  And when the work is serving drinks or meals or maintaining staterooms the quality of the work is best measured by the person receiving that service.

I'm not sure what the correlation is between tipping and quality of work, but my experience while watching others be so easily parted with their cash, is also significantly down to how intoxicated they are, the physical attractiveness of the person getting the reward, the need to impress other people, and showing others just how easily they can afford to do this.

[Peter Lanky]

5 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

If a restaurant is doing it that way because everyone else does then isn't that a part of their business plan?

 

And the higher the quality of food on your plate the more it presupposes that the staff has the relevant training and/or experience in that environment to make your meal as pleasant as possible. 

 

 

So does carrying a £50 dish across a room require 5 times the skill and personality than doing the same with a £10 dish served in the same premises? The percentage reward suggests that it does.

[Peter Lanky]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Even setting aside the issue about tipping, I really do not see real movement towards posting real final prices. You will often see a footnote about port fees of x to y dollars will be added. Also, one price will be given, and then in another footnote it will be noted it is for only one of the dates listed.

I don't like the 'From' price way of advertising, especially when the 'From' price is a plant, or even for a different product, and would I prefer to see the range of prices used instead, but that's another issue for another discussion. 

[navybankerteacher]

39 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

I'm not sure what the correlation is between tipping and quality of work, but my experience while watching others be so easily parted with their cash, is also significantly down to how intoxicated they are, the physical attractiveness of the person getting the reward, the need to impress other people, and showing others just how easily they can afford to do this.

How much “experience while watching others” can you really claim given your stated aversion to places where tipping takes place?