Cruise Ship Lifeboat Tour. What Life Saving Equipment Is Inside? How Much Food & Water?

[cruiseryyc]

When I used to cruise I had decided that I would wait until the last lifeboat to be on with ship's crew and captain - people who knew how to behave on a lifeboat.  And if the captain decided to stay onboard and go down with the ship; well I'd be drinking all the Bombay Sapphire Gin on my way down.

[navybankerteacher]

When you get down to it, the cruise industry has been generally well run and not overly challenged.  But the more very large ships you have sailing with thousands of passengers on board, the greater the possibility is that a bad (perhaps even a worst case) scenario will arise.  
 

I am not enough concerned to quit cruising - but for a number of reasons (three deck lifeboats carrying hundreds being just one of them), I am not inclined to sail on any ship carrying much over 2,000 passengers.

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, txjim09 said:

Should I put my towel on a liferaft seat when I get on the ship?

Perhaps a book, opened to the middle, face down would be more effective.

[chengkp75]

29 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

What's your job (or, less likely, hobby) that you've tried both?  

46 years as a merchant ship's engineer, close to 40 as Chief Engineer.  One year retired.

 

30 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

No water for a day /no food for two days?  In tropical heat, this could be really bad.  How is this enforced? 

As noted in the video, people are sitting on the storage lockers, most won't even know they are there until the crew asks people to move to access them.

 

31 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

I assume every small boat has an officer in charge? 

Nope.  Not every boat even has a certified lifeboatman in it.  When the passengers board the boats and leave the ship, the only crew that leave are the 3 (150 man boat) or 16 (370 man boat) that are assigned as crew.  The remainder of the crew will still be at their emergency stations, fighting the emergency.  Only once the passengers have evacuated the ship, and there is no more hope, will the Captain actually signal "abandon ship" (no, the signal for passenger muster is not "abandon ship" but "fire and general emergency"), and the crew will then report to their abandon ship stations.  So, when you are in the boats, the officers will be busy trying to save the ship.  Each ship is required to have a statutory number of "certified lifeboatmen" (specially trained to handle the boats).  These are typically members of the deck and engine departments, who are professional mariners, and are required to have this training.  However, their skills as mariners also makes them valuable for emergency duties, so they are almost never assigned to be crew for the passenger lifeboats.  The lifeboat crews are generally trained onboard the ship in their lifeboat duties.

 

37 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

What about communication?  Do people know how far away help is?

The boat will have an EPIRB (emergency position indicating radio beacon) that will transmit the ship's name and location to search and rescue satellites, which then beams it to governmental rescue agencies for response.  But this is only transmission, there is no reception back to the boat.  Some of the boats will have an emergency radio, but this is VHF radio, which is "line of sight" and meant to coordinate between an on-site rescue vessel and the boat, so no, people won't know how far away help is, until the rescuers can see you.

 

41 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

I tried (and failed) to find out when a cruise ship was last forced to launch lifeboats.  Does anyone know this answer?

Every lifeboat on a passenger vessel must be launched once a month.  So, they can't just do one, each boat has to be launched monthly, and this is why the ship docks with a different side to the pier in some ports, to allow the boats on each side to be offshore and possible to launch.  Lifeboats are designed to be simple and safe for one thing:  to load passengers, lower and release from the ship ONCE.  In order to make this possible, the actions needed to retrieve the boat are difficult and dangerous, and the cause of many crew injuries and deaths.

 

45 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

A related topic:  We noted that they have -- in addition to the covered lifeboats, which we've been discussing -- another type of smaller, uncovered vehicle that looks faster /more maneuverable.  They took that out too, and we guessed it was for picking up a "man overboard".  Or retrieving a body?  We noted later that they have one of these on each side of the ship.  

The lifeboats on cruise ships are technically "semi-enclosed" boats, since the covers and doors are not watertight.  Cargo ships tend to have "fully enclosed" boats, that are capable of righting themselves if rolled completely over in seas.  The small boats you mention are "fast rescue boats" and are indeed for man overboard.  The use of these craft is also extremely dangerous for the 3 person crew.

 

Sorry to be blunt, but these are the realities of life at sea.

[chengkp75]

31 minutes ago, cruiseryyc said:

When I used to cruise I had decided that I would wait until the last lifeboat to be on with ship's crew and captain - people who knew how to behave on a lifeboat.  And if the captain decided to stay onboard and go down with the ship; well I'd be drinking all the Bombay Sapphire Gin on my way down.

The Captain won't be on the last lifeboat, but the last life raft.  Very few of the crew will leave the ship with the passengers, as their abandon ship stations are typically right under the lifeboats, where the rafts are located, so until the boats and passengers leave, there isn't room for the crew to muster.  Besides, as I"ve said, when the passengers evacuate, the crew are still at emergency stations fighting the emergency.

[Mum2Mercury]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

When you get down to it, the cruise industry has been generally well run and not overly challenged.  But the more very large ships you have sailing with thousands of passengers on board, the greater the possibility is that a bad (perhaps even a worst case) scenario will arise.  
 

I am not enough concerned to quit cruising - but for a number of reasons (three deck lifeboats carrying hundreds being just one of them), I am not inclined to sail on any ship carrying much over 2,000 passengers.

Agree with the first sentence. 

 

As avoiding large numbers of people, you could also accomplish this by sailing in off-season.  

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Perhaps a book, opened to the middle, face down would be more effective.

Hey, it's a single flip-flop or nothing!  

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

46 years as a merchant ship's engineer, close to 40 as Chief Engineer.  One year retired.

 

As noted in the video, people are sitting on the storage lockers, most won't even know they are there until the crew asks people to move to access them.

Nope.  Not every boat even has a certified lifeboatman in it.  When the passengers board the boats and leave the ship, the only crew that leave are the 3 (150 man boat) or 16 (370 man boat) that are assigned as crew.  The remainder of the crew will still be at their emergency stations, fighting the emergency.  Only once the passengers have evacuated the ship, and there is no more hope, will the Captain actually signal "abandon ship" (no, the signal for passenger muster is not "abandon ship" but "fire and general emergency"), and the crew will then report to their abandon ship stations.  So, when you are in the boats, the officers will be busy trying to save the ship.  Each ship is required to have a statutory number of "certified lifeboatmen" (specially trained to handle the boats).  These are typically members of the deck and engine departments, who are professional mariners, and are required to have this training.  However, their skills as mariners also makes them valuable for emergency duties, so they are almost never assigned to be crew for the passenger lifeboats.  The lifeboat crews are generally trained onboard the ship in their lifeboat duties.

The boat will have an EPIRB (emergency position indicating radio beacon) that will transmit the ship's name and location to search and rescue satellites, which then beams it to governmental rescue agencies for response.  But this is only transmission, there is no reception back to the boat.  Some of the boats will have an emergency radio, but this is VHF radio, which is "line of sight" and meant to coordinate between an on-site rescue vessel and the boat, so no, people won't know how far away help is, until the rescuers can see you.

 

Every lifeboat on a passenger vessel must be launched once a month.  So, they can't just do one, each boat has to be launched monthly, and this is why the ship docks with a different side to the pier in some ports, to allow the boats on each side to be offshore and possible to launch.  Lifeboats are designed to be simple and safe for one thing:  to load passengers, lower and release from the ship ONCE.  In order to make this possible, the actions needed to retrieve the boat are difficult and dangerous, and the cause of many crew injuries and deaths.

 

The lifeboats on cruise ships are technically "semi-enclosed" boats, since the covers and doors are not watertight.  Cargo ships tend to have "fully enclosed" boats, that are capable of righting themselves if rolled completely over in seas.  The small boats you mention are "fast rescue boats" and are indeed for man overboard.  The use of these craft is also extremely dangerous for the 3 person crew.

 

Sorry to be blunt, but these are the realities of life at sea.

Your career has certainly left you with a wealth of knowledge, and I'm enjoying learning these things, though I sincerely hope they are 100% hypothetical for everyone here. 

 

It'd take me about 10 seconds of being thirsty to suspect we were sitting on the water bottles.  I doubt I'd be alone.  

 

I'm surprised /disappointed to hear there'd be essentially no leadership on a lifeboat -- though I understand that the majority of the crew would be fighting the fire (in my mind that's the biggest reason you'd need to leave a ship).  So, in reality,  a lifeboat would be filled with passengers + 3 waiters.  

 

I understand that passenger comfort is not a priority, but lack of communication seems to be a missed step.  People can behave much better when they know "help is only two hours away".  

 

When I pondered the question of "When a cruise ship last launched life boats", I really meant WITH PASSENGERS.  I assumed they tested their lifeboats on a regular basis.  Again, I had not considered the dangers /difficulties of retrieving the lifeboat.  

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

The Captain won't be on the last lifeboat, but the last life raft.  Very few of the crew will leave the ship with the passengers, as their abandon ship stations are typically right under the lifeboats, where the rafts are located, so until the boats and passengers leave, there isn't room for the crew to muster.  Besides, as I"ve said, when the passengers evacuate, the crew are still at emergency stations fighting the emergency.

At least, this is what would happen in theory.  A reasonable fear:  in a real emergency -- thinking Titanic in my naive mind -- I wonder how many crew members would say, "I'm not risking my life for this housekeeping job.  My two best friends and I are getting on that lifeboat over there."

[navybankerteacher]

4 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

.A reasonable fear:  in a real emergency -- thinking Titanic in my naive mind -- I wonder how many crew members would say, "I'm not risking my life for this housekeeping job.  My two best friends and I are getting on that lifeboat over there."

This, I think, is a valid comment.  In the most recent real life incident (Costa Concordia) the captain came to that conclusion.

[Heidi13]

17 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

Okay, I found information -- true?  Hard to know -- on those secondary lifeboats.  Pretty scary article:  https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2013/01/articles/sinking/titanic-redux-can-royal-caribbean-safely-evacuate-8500-passengers-crew-from-the-oasis-of-the-seas/  

 

Okay, I'm inclined to think choosing smaller ships might be a wise idea. 

 

 

Further to the Chief's excellent response, I concur that Mr Walker is No expert. I'm another mariner who has used both lifeboats and liferafts in the ocean, and my preference is one of the larger MES rafts, especially if it is the RFD Marin-Ark system.

 

With the exception of OEM techs, I have participated in more MES installations and deployments than most in North America, since I attended every installation and annual deployment in our fleet of 35 vessels. Our Flag State required 1 system deployed from each ship every year, so I attended at least a dozen deployments each year. Prior to retirement, I was cleared on all MES systems, except the one from Viking Lifesaving.

 

These MES systems are very well tested and safe to use. As the Chief indicated, they are also quicker to evacuate a ship than conventional lifeboats. I have organised and implemented timed evacuation trials for Flag State on 4 different systems, with each able to easily attain the required capacity and move the filled rafts 100 yds from the ship.

 

I have also commanded numerous vessels with only liferaft systems, including ships with 2,000 pax. I haven't commanded a ship having lifeboats since the 1990.

 

As a pax, if I had a choice, I would happily use an MES system from Survitec (Marin Ark), Liferaft Systems Australia or Viking LSE.

[Mum2Mercury]

17 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

This, I think, is a valid comment.  In the most recent real life incident (Costa Concordia) the captain came to that conclusion.

Yeah, but I think a waiter could get away with leaving his post and getting a spot in a lifeboat.  He'd lose his job, of course, but I don't think he'd be prosecuted.  

The captain can't do that.  Not without consequences.  

6 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

Further to the Chief's excellent response, I concur that Mr Walker is No expert. I'm another mariner who has used both lifeboats and liferafts in the ocean, and my preference is one of the larger MES rafts, especially if it is the RFD Marin-Ark system ... 

 

As a pax, if I had a choice, I would happily use an MES system from Survitec (Marin Ark), Liferaft Systems Australia or Viking LSE.

You guys have convinced me.  

[rkacruiser]

24 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

I'm surprised /disappointed to hear there'd be essentially no leadership on a lifeboat -

 

I am going to disagree with you concerning the lack of leadership on a lifeboat and, if I am wrong, I would appreciate being corrected by those who have experience.

 

When I have attended Muster Drills on HAL ships (and I assume on Princess ships), there has always been a crew member who wears a cap that says "Lifeboat Commander" on it.  I believe that this person will be aboard my lifeboat and will be the person in charge of that boat.  These individuals "day jobs" are varied:  during one cruise, my Lifeboat Commander was my Wine Steward.  It is my understanding that these people are volunteers who receive special training for their lifeboat job.  

[chengkp75]

23 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

At least, this is what would happen in theory.  A reasonable fear:  in a real emergency -- thinking Titanic in my naive mind -- I wonder how many crew members would say, "I'm not risking my life for this housekeeping job.  My two best friends and I are getting on that lifeboat over there."

Unfortunately, as any first responder will confirm, regardless of the amount of training you receive, you never know whether you will run into the fire, or from the fire.  Until you are faced with the beast for real, you won't know.  This is why I feel that the mandated firefighting training (that USCG imposes on every crew member on a US passenger vessel, but that SOLAS only requires for the deck and engine department personnel) is so important.  You will actually put on full "bunker gear" (coat, boots, hat, self-contained breathing apparatus, about 40 lbs of equipment), and go into a room to fight an actual fire.  As part of SCTW mandated training, this guy had to, at the age of 65 don all this equipment, stand in a burning room and fight the fire, all the while breathing through a compressed air mask.  I had to do this, even though I was going to retire within 7 months, since my training anniversary had come due.

15 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

This, I think, is a valid comment.  In the most recent real life incident (Costa Concordia) the captain came to that conclusion.

Again, unfortunately, there was nothing in Schettino's history that would have indicated that he would act this way.

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

When I have attended Muster Drills on HAL ships (and I assume on Princess ships), there has always been a crew member who wears a cap that says "Lifeboat Commander" on it. 

 

9 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

It is my understanding that these people are volunteers who receive special training for their lifeboat job. 

Yes, that person has been designated as Lifeboat Commander.  The training he/she has received is training onboard.  This is far different from a certified lifeboatman, who takes a 32 hour (4 day) onshore training, involving all aspects of lifeboats, including launching and retrieving.  This is on top of a "Basic Safety Training" course of 40 hours ashore (lifesaving and firefighting), which again, while the USCG requires this BST for every crewmember, SOLAS only requires it for deck and engine personnel.  While, over time, the foreign flag cruise ship lifeboat crew will become competent in releasing the boat and driving it away, they never get any training in actually handling a boatful of people (kind of like the new muster drill, where the crew never experience herding passengers).  Again, the crew will do their best, but without the proper training, and actual real life experience, you never know whether they will succeed or not.

Edited October 1, 2022 by chengkp75

[Heidi13]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Yes, that person has been designated as Lifeboat Commander.  The training he/she has received is training onboard.  This is far different from a certified lifeboatman, who takes a 32 hour (4 day) onshore training, involving all aspects of lifeboats, including launching and retrieving.  This is on top of a "Basic Safety Training" course of 40 hours ashore (lifesaving and firefighting), which again, while the USCG requires this BST for every crewmember, SOLAS only requires it for deck and engine personnel.  While, over time, the foreign flag cruise ship lifeboat crew will become competent in releasing the boat and driving it away, they never get any training in actually handling a boatful of people (kind of like the new muster drill, where the crew never experience herding passengers).  Again, the crew will do their best, but without the proper training, and actual real life experience, you never know whether they will succeed or not.

 

As you well know, sadly most regulations are a minimum standard and the onus is on the Master and Officers to ensure all crew are adequately trained onboard.

 

Our standards were in accordance with SOLAS, in that only Deck & Engineering required Fire-Fighting training, so on an annual basis, I hired an ex-mariner who ran our local fire school to provide a basic course for each of my 3 crews (1 night per crew). I took the ship out of operation for the last 4 hours and he presented a 4-hr course - both theory & practical. They weren't dressed up in fire gear and sent into a fire, but they got to use extinguishers to fight small propane fires and got to experience a charged fire hose.

 

I also sent Seamen away in a rescue boat every day for about an hour. As we slowed for arrival, we dropped them into the water and then picked them up again after departure. Once the Seamen were proficient, I added some Hotel Staff. Initially they went with 2 Seamen, but once the Bosun advised they were proficient, I have sent a Seaman away with a hotel rating. My regular Seamen were all proficient at safely launching a rescue boat when the ship had way.

 

It was tough with a small crew, but the pay back in crew morale was immense.

 

On the Princess ships fitted with the Marin-Ark systems, they had a small training system up fwd that was used for crew training. Unfortunately, we did not have space for anything similar onboard our ships, but we did annual deployments with crew participating and had a central training system at the shipyard for all crews to use. At a minimum, all our crew had to attend a company developed restricted Survival Course and if working on an MES ship, they had to attend the specific MES training system and take the plunge.

 

No guarantee how they would react in an emergency, but at least they had seen it and experienced it.

[sparks1093]

On 10/1/2022 at 12:19 PM, Mum2Mercury said:

A rotten apple.  In general, I trust the officers and staff.  If you didn't, you wouldn't cruise.  

I don't know this guy's reputation, but I accept what you're saying -- and I absolutely know what you're saying about a-rescue-boat-for-all is true; in fact, ships are required to have MORE seats than souls on board.  We saw those "tube things" on the deck, and we wondered what they were.  I'm glad to have read the article (however slanted) to understand what they are.  

 

What's your job (or, less likely, hobby) that you've tried both?  

 

Until this thread I had not considered how people would get OFF the small boats, but -- yeah -- I totally see that's a real issue, especially for those who aren't able-bodied.  

 

I fully accept that -- if it comes to leaving the ship -- things will be very uncomfortable.  I suspect it's kinda like seat belts and air bags; they will save your life, but they'll leave you with bruises and other minor injuries.  

 

No water for a day /no food for two days?  In tropical heat, this could be really bad.  How is this enforced? 

I assume every small boat has an officer in charge? 

What about communication?  Do people know how far away help is? 

Eh, I don't know.  What we're discussing is, indeed, quite grim -- but consider the number of ships that sail day in, day out without any hint of a need to go to these lengths.  This is all highly unlikely.  

 

I tried (and failed) to find out when a cruise ship was last forced to launch lifeboats.  Does anyone know this answer?

The whole concept is interesting.  

 

On our recent cruise we received a letter saying that they'd be conducting a lifeboat test the next day -- smart to tell us this ahead of time.  We returned from our morning on one of the islands to see the crew setting out a lifeboat.  If we'd seen this without warning, we'd have been quite hesitant to re-board. 

 

We went up to the Windjammer, and we found a window seat, where we had a front-row seat to watch Carnival Horizon conducting the same lifeboat drill.  We were definitely interested in the whole process.  

 

A related topic:  We noted that they have -- in addition to the covered lifeboats, which we've been discussing -- another type of smaller, uncovered vehicle that looks faster /more maneuverable.  They took that out too, and we guessed it was for picking up a "man overboard".  Or retrieving a body?  We noted later that they have one of these on each side of the ship.  

Great question!  

Yes, it is very unlikely and my comment pertains as much to a "routine" emergency as a whole ship evacuation simply because many people 1) don't listen and 2) don't follow instructions. I think the Concordia disaster required the use of lifeboats and that wasn't too long ago. I shudder to think what the outcome would have been had they been in deep water.

[sparks1093]

On 10/1/2022 at 3:05 PM, Mum2Mercury said:

 

 

As avoiding large numbers of people, you could also accomplish this by sailing in off-season.  

 

There might not be 110% of passenger capacity during an off season but there might be 90% and on a mega-ship that is still a large number. Emergencies tend to bring out both the best and the worst in people but I suspect if passengers need to be in a lifeboat for any amount of time it will turn nasty very quickly. Fortunately as we've noted the odds are very good that none of us will have to worry about this (and if we do, and survive, we could probably work the talk show circuit for the rest of our days).

[chengkp75]

43 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

I shudder to think what the outcome would have been had they been in deep water.

Actually, it is the shallow water that caused the Concordia to roll over on her side.  She touched bottom again, on one side (underwater ridge), and as the ship continued to fill with water, this "free surface" water went to the side that was not supported by the seabed, and caused the ship to roll over.  In deep water, the ship would have sunk later than she did, upright, and down by the stern.

 

33 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

There might not be 110% of passenger capacity during an off season but there might be 90% and on a mega-ship that is still a large number.

Not sure what you mean here.  There is required to be 125% lifesaving capacity (boats and rafts), for the maximum number of souls that are allowed on the ship.

[sparks1093]

10 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

 

Not sure what you mean here.  There is required to be 125% lifesaving capacity (boats and rafts), for the maximum number of souls that are allowed on the ship.

The two posters were talking about total passenger load, with one of them saying they wouldn't sail on a ship with a capacity of more than 2,000 passengers and I was responding to the one that suggested traveling during the off-season would help avoid a large number of people.

[Capt_BJ]

years ago we were at the precruise lifeboat drill on a 'small ship' - a WINDSTAR sailing ship

 

I was wearing a hat that said I was USCG but doubt that mattered to anyone who was not crew ..... as we were about to be dismissed I said,WAIT ... there's something else, priority one ...

 

When you go to your cabin to grab your life jacket. grab everything from the mini-bar . . .

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, Capt_BJ said:

When you go to your cabin to grab your life jacket. grab everything from the mini-bar . . .

For us it was grab your license and overtime sheet.

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, Capt_BJ said:

When you go to your cabin to grab your life jacket. grab everything from the mini-bar . . .

 

🤣     A great suggestion!  Stuff your pockets with the bottles/cans/packages!  Please leave your carry-on in your cabin.  (As I know you would.)  

[navybankerteacher]

On 10/1/2022 at 3:05 PM, Mum2Mercury said:

...

 

As avoiding large numbers of people, you could also accomplish this by sailing in off-season.  

...

 

 

"Off-season" sailings are as likely as peak season sailings to be fully loaded  -- there are just fewer sailings.   Regardless of season, lines will start discounting as sailing date nears - they do not want to sail with empty bunks, and have learned how to price their offerings

[Heidi13]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

For us it was grab your license and overtime sheet.

 

You got overtime????

 

Only overtime we got was on the cadet training ship and it was assigned as punishments, to be worked off scrubbing decks with a hand scrubber and toothbrush for the edges. Usually accompanied by the Physical Torture Instructor, from Yorkshire, standing above us screaming, "Scrub harder lad"

[MBP&O2/O]

We got double time for weekend work in port  and double time for driving a forklift. 

Driving a forklift on a weekend was a fiscally responsible decision 😁 Quad time! 

It was very infrequent though😥

 

[mnocket]

After seeing how crowded the life boats are and imagining spending several days without the ability to move around - with people getting sea sick - with no bathroom facilities - with people behaving like people tend to do in uncomfortable situations.....  I have to wonder, when the alarm sounds would I head to the life boats or the bar.🤔

[rkacruiser]

If I was in my stateroom, my first objective would be to make a restroom visit, then, empty the mini-bar into my pockets, put on my life jacket, and, if there was a bar still open en route to my Muster Station, I'd join you, if you are there.