What changes would you suggest?

[mnocket]

I've begun to question whether there is a path forward for the so-called Premium cruise lines. Can they  cut their way to survival or is the Premium cruise line cost/service model no longer viable? Rather than linking to my post about this in another forum, I'll repost it below...

 

As I've thought about cruise line troubles I've come to wonder if the so-called premium lines (Celebrity, Princess, HAL) are really the most at risk. I think the luxury lines will do fine as they have more pricing power and an affluent customer base.  They will also benefit as refuges from the premium lines move upscale.

 

The family-friendly mainstream lines will also probably do fine as I think this demographic still sees cruising as a good value proposition.

 

It's the premium lines that I worry about.  Those customers are more sensitive to the value they get for their vacation dollar.  They tend to be experienced cruisers and yearn for cruising "the way it used to be".  Judging from recent trip reports, these ships seem to still be sailing at far from full capacity.

 

Predictions:

1. The distinction between premium and mass market cruise lines will shrink to the point where there is little to no difference.  I wouldn't be surprise if parent companies decide that the premium category is no longer sustainable and they fold these ships into their mass market brands. Either this or one or more of the premium branded companies will declare bankruptcy (I don't know enough about how  the parent companies are organized to know if say Celebrity can declare bankruptcy separate from the other RCCL companies).
2. Virgin Voyages will be no more in 12-24 months.  Their target customer base failed to show up in the anticipated numbers causing the company to shift directions.  The result is they are stuck in no-man's land.  I just don't see a path to viability - Virgin does eventually cut loose unprofitable brands.

[mnocket]

8 minutes ago, BOB999 said:

Sorry in advance for the lengthy post.

 

Fundamentally, Celebrity (and other mass-market cruise lines) aren't going to cut their way to profitability.  They have a lot of expensive capacity that they can't rid themselves of so they need to try to make it work on the revenue side.

 

The mass-market model relies on consistently full ships of full-fare paying passengers and since the restart, that simply isn't happening.  There is a decent portion of the travelling public who may have been open/interested in cruising pre-Covid but now are not or they need big enticements to get onboard.  

 

My suggestions to them would be:

 

- Continue to try to convince the public at large that cruising is safe.  I've been on 3 Celebrity cruises since reopening and will admit that there is a lot of coughing and if I were more Covid-averse I would probably avoid it.  There isn't much they can do in terms of masking/testing requirements that won't turn off others, but it will continue to be a work in process.

 

- More interesting itineraries:  There are only so many Western/Eastern Caribbean cruises one can do.  A lot of people are itinerary first, cruise line second.  Thankfully Celebrity seems to be stepping up here.  More Iceland/Fjords, Egypt/Israel, return to India and the reopening of Asia/Australia are creating a lot of opportunities.  Of the cruises I've been on, the unique itineraries seem to be pretty full and not just Blue Chip freebies.

 

- Decide what Celebrity represents.  For a while it seemed Celebrity was trying to differentiate themselves from the rest with this "Always Included" model (now All or Sometimes included).  Now it seems like they are turning into an airline that tries to be everything for everybody.  Airlines offer anything from Basic Economy to Premium Business/First on the same plane.  It feels like Celebrity, particularly with these cuts are trying to do the same thing.  I don't know if that is going to work.

 

TL/DR:  They can't cut their way out of this, they need to get paying passengers on the ship.

 

Very similar thoughts to my post above (which I was typing as you posted) - the difference being I'm not sure the premium cost/service model is still viable.  Thanks for the well thought out post👍

[Shiba_Lover]

3 hours ago, bebe08 said:

Would love to see more pub style food and even a sit down pub style restaurant.  Could make the buffet smaller to accommodate this.  I would like a more casual dining option that is not the buffet.  I think there is a lot of waste at the buffet and they need to downsize it....sounds like this may already be happening.   Pub style food would typically be cheaper than the MDR fare...thinking burgers, fajitias, fish and chips, wraps etc.  NCL does this well with the O'Shehans resturant.  

This is a fantastic idea.  Not everyone wants a full sit down 3 course meal, and it eliminates the waste of a buffet

[talljules1]

I have no idea what their way out is. Maybe it is just unsustainable. But prices are already on the up and up, and they are reducing what we get for the increased prices. We have a cruise booked for the end of the year, but I have no plans to book any more with X. Constantly charging more and more for less and less is not appealing to me at all. Yes, the lines have their debts. That is their problem - I do not have to let it become mine, nor will I.

 

None of the options suggested in the thread so far have any appeal to me. For me, it is already on a knife edge - if they are going to reduce the value further of a more and more expensive product, I'd rather just not cruise with them.

[Shiba_Lover]

They can eliminate the "savories" delivered to your room in the afternoon.  It is almost always something you don't want to eat because A) you are not hungry or B) it is not food safe.  Example - sushi.  I am immune compromised and can't eat it anyway.  My husband is not going to eat sushi that has been sitting out for who knows how long.  We also don't want cheese that has been sitting out for who knows how long.  I mean, I appreciate that they may be dropping off a little snack - but if it is not food safe - I'm not risking it.  Just stop it.  It would save the labor and the food waste.  Those who desire a snack in room can arrange something to be delivered at a specific time and then they know it is safe to eat and that it is actually going to be consumed.

 

I'm fine if they eliminate turn down service in most cases.  Even being in a suite (I think I read a comment that said to keep this in suites).  I always hang my towels after I shower - typically, even if I shower in the afternoon - they are dry by morning.  I don't need the chocolate on my pillow - it is not very good anyway.  I tend to keep my room fairly tidy anyway as I'm sort of OCD - so I don't really need them to come back in the afternoon.  If I've had a drink in the room - I do take the empty glass back out with me when I leave and drop it at the next bar I come across.  

I recognize carrying out and dropping off glasses may be difficult for someone who uses crutches/cane or a wheelchair or has some issues with their hands - so others may indeed need their room refreshed in the afternoons.  I think that therefore - totally eliminating the service may not be good - so people who need or want to have their rooms refreshed should be able to just call and request.

 

I've seen ideas to have some different restaurants offering smaller bites to eat for dinner - that would be a great idea - salads, sandwiches, etc - at an included price.  Something like what Eden does at lunch but for dinner - that would be fantastic.  Give people who don't want a full sit down meal an easy option that is not the buffet.  I do think the buffet is a big food waste at dinner, but it is really the only option if someone does not want an entire sit-down served meal.

[NutsAboutGolf]

2 hours ago, mrgabriel said:

They’re going to make someone mad no matter what they do. If it was me, I would start with:

- eliminate turn down service in everything but suite and concierge classes. Why those? People already pay more for a higher level of service. Also get rid of the decorative pillows on the beds that don’t get turndown. 

- work on food waste. Eliminate things that no one eats. Smaller plates in the buffet so people have to physically walk back to the stations if they want a 3rd helping. 
- bring back Casual Dining in the buffet in the evening. It used to be $2 for a fast sit down service with different choices (like pub food). Provides a viable option for those who don’t want the MDR. 

Longer term:

- Bring in a bunch of lean experts to look at all of the processes. Plenty of inefficiencies everywhere. Streamlined/smart processes will not only improve the bottom line but also the employee experience so they can attract/keep great employees that provide superior service. 
- More smaller dining opportunities where reservations are needed. How much food goes to waste because people aren’t eating in the MDR?

- Find a way to differentiate the offerings so people will be willing to pay premium brand prices. Is that more speakers? Who are your customers now? Who are your desired customers?

 

Turn-down service will inevitably be eliminated for at least inside-balcony (and possibly CC/AQ or it will hang around a little longer) staterooms, just a question of will it continue to be around for months or years?

 

A made to order "Food Hall" will most likely replace the buffet which would help with both reducing food waste and would give pax a casual dining option for dinner. However, if they stay on course with reducing food quality, they'll actually be MORE food waste...lol...Virgin pioneered the food hall and NCL followed, many believe it's inevitable it will be on all cruise lines eventually.  I personally would welcome the change

 

Cruise lines seem to want to rely on their low-paid workers vs investing in automation.  X's website is a mess, can't even recognize a pax CC status so if you have status and want a CC discount, you have to call in.  When you call in, rarely do you get the option for them to call you back.  The could greatly reduce labor costs if you could order your meals from your smartphone and they could install kiosks for the few "disconnect" holdouts that remain.  They make drink dispensers where you can order a drink, like a cosmo, from your smartphone/kiosk and the dispenser pours the perfect amount.  Some lines are dabbling with pour your own beer and wine dispensers.  More and more at restaurants (including last week at California Pizza Kitchen) I see robots carrying around food items and some hotels use them for room service.  I could go on and on but the first sentence of this paragraph says it all

 

Better itineraries require the government of the ports to cooperate.  If a government of a port requires more $$$ and/or wacky rules like all ship bars need to be closed, they're the ones shooting themselves in the foot

 

X's target customers IMO is anyone who book the Retreat.  Book a room or call X and are on hold, all see and hear is "The Retreat".  The product they offer now is not something most millennials would enjoy as they want different experiences and post their experiences on social media.  Seems like X dipped their toe in this with the Eden with all night ongoing shows when pax had forced interactions with the performers but too many people complained and they scrapped it

[NutsAboutGolf]

2 hours ago, iandjm said:

I guess the big problem is once you are elite plus the chances of making zenith are around zero unless I sail with them until I am 250 years old. 

 

It seemed the easiest way to do so was when the casino offered you a comped room, you paid $10-$20/night to upgrade to CC or AQ (which someone said is now gone), book a longer itinerary, go solo to get double points and sign up for GoGreen

[cruisemom42]

38 minutes ago, mnocket said:

As I've thought about cruise line troubles I've come to wonder if the so-called premium lines (Celebrity, Princess, HAL) are really the most at risk. I think the luxury lines will do fine as they have more pricing power and an affluent customer base.  They will also benefit as refuges from the premium lines move upscale.

 

I have difficulty defining Celebrity, Princess or HAL as "Premium" lines.  They are upper-level mass market lines, at best. Celebrity, of all of them, most likes to pretend to being more, but mainly due to what they provide suite customers. However.....MSC and NCL also have their own insulated suite classes and wouldn't be considered "Premium" because of it.

 

For me: 

Mass Market Family-Friendly Lines = Carnival, NCL, Costa, MSC, RCCL (top of this bunch)

 

Mass Market Higher End/Less Family Oriented = Princess, HAL, Celebrity

 

Premium = Oceania, Azamara, Viking

 

Luxury = Regent, Seabourn, Silversea, Crystal (back in the day)

 

Of course, their CEOs each have their own take on this. 😂. In a world where every child has to be unique, they all insist that their cruise line doesn't "fit into established categories" but is something more.

 

To illustrate, a quote from LLP about Celebrity:

 

In Lisa Lutoff-Perlo’s eyes, the labels are “antiquated.” As CEO of Celebrity Cruises, she argues that the brand is a luxury product that can’t seem to shake the perception that it is in the premium bucket....

 

Celebrity isn’t “ultraluxury,” she said, with the “white-glove, one-hand-behind-your-back, caviar-formal type of service with small ships. We’re this relaxed luxury that’s beautiful, that’s luxurious, that’s elevated. And we’re not premium, because we’re better than that.” 

 

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Defying-cruise-categorization

 

Oh really, Lisa?  I venture to bet that on lines that are "better than premium" there is no upcharge for room service or second lobsters, and I'll bet you can still find premium cuts of beef on the menu.

Edited January 15, 2023 by cruisemom42

[NutsAboutGolf]

1 hour ago, TeeRick said:

I believe they should not cut back any more than they have already.  The prices have already gone way up.  So how about they just stop building new ships for a period of time?  Save hundreds of $millions$ instead of nickel and diming existing passengers and ship experiences.  Also, when Ascent and the following E-Class ship both launch, there will be an additional strain getting staff to run them and provide services on board.  They will draw from the existing ships.  This is really a big problem right now.

 

1 hour ago, Cap_D said:

Celebrity should eliminate gimmick promotions with countdown clocks and false sense of urgency. 

 

Celebrity needs to rethink their food offerings and design, and then recalibrate their marketing.  Any new cruiser (of which we were in April 2022) and any prior cruiser will likely be disappointed with the current reduced offerings.

 

Right now the only place a basic fare cruiser can potentially get a full dinner is the now greatly reduced MDR.  That is not competitive with other cruise lines or everyday life. 

 

An additional included food option for dinner other than the MDRs (by whatever name) and the buffet of leftovers (h/t Traveling Gamblers tour of dinner Apex OVC January 2023 @ https://youtu.be/BMGwQTym8NY) seems necessary to compete, especially with the unimaginative and limited MDR menus of mass produced banquet entrees that are on steam tables in the back.   

 

Sometimes one would just like a bowl of pasta (not a scoop of a casserole that is no better than a pot luck at home), a burger, simple protein, hot pizza, etc. that's cooked to order.  Why is that so difficult for Celebrity to offer?  

 

Interestingly, the Rooftop Grill on Edge Class ships is essentially a "grill" menu, or the equivalent of the included bar food or BBQ available on many other cruise lines (including Disney Wish), but the lack of wind screening on Edge and Apex make that space less than desirable especially for a premium payment even if using OBC and the menu doesn't seem to warrant an extra cost when compared to other cruise lines or everyday basic dining. 

 

Perhaps for another thread, but Celebrity's marketing, positioning of OBC (as a promotional tool, and not one to empower dining choice), and kitchens and employee load seem to mismatched for offering anything but banquet steam table fare, wherever the venue, even if on china.  All the ship tours show huge stores, kitchens and prep areas, OVC has multiple kitchens, and none of it is used effectively. 

 

Meanwhile, a flaw of Celebrity, including Edge Class ships, is most of the dining areas suffer from being labeled and decorated for a particular type of food yet rarely achieve the gimmick they are seeking to emulate.  

 

100% agree with both of you, great points by both

[Bo1953]

4 hours ago, kathynorth said:

That would discourage people from bringing wine onboard. Celebrity saves money by weaving alcohol costs into the price of an AI cruise. When people bring wine onboard they don’t consume the Celebrity wine because they are drinking their own wine, hence Celebrity saves.

I believe you are correct for individuals who would not purchase a beverage package.

 

There are some of us who bring wine on board AND still maintain a beverage package.

 

I would venture to say many of us have the PBP by the time we board... just biting at the bit to hit either The Martini or Sunset Bars to get it going... LOL

 

Cheers and bon voyage

[NMTraveller]

5 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

To illustrate, a quote from LLP about Celebrity:

 

In Lisa Lutoff-Perlo’s eyes, the labels are “antiquated.” As CEO of Celebrity Cruises, she argues that the brand is a luxury product that can’t seem to shake the perception that it is in the premium bucket....

 

Celebrity isn’t “ultraluxury,” she said, with the “white-glove, one-hand-behind-your-back, caviar-formal type of service with small ships. We’re this relaxed luxury that’s beautiful, that’s luxurious, that’s elevated. And we’re not premium, because we’re better than that.” 

 

 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 

Edited January 15, 2023 by NMTraveller

[sherylc]

My answer might not be popular, but I think Celebrity needs to find the cruise price that allows them to offer the previous quality of service/food that their loyal customers have come to expect. I have sailed many times with Celebrity, but think my upcoming March trip might be my last at least for awhile. I would be happy to pay a little more to have the quality experience I’ve grown used to. What I’m not happy with is hearing about all of the changes that have occurred AFTER I made final payment in December. I feel a bit like I’m held hostage to go on a cruise substantially different from what I expected when I booked and then paid for the cruise. The question is which population Celebrity is going after. They might attract new cruisers for the lower price point, but lose people like me who know what cruising with Celebrity “should be.” 
 

 

[NutsAboutGolf]

1 hour ago, RichYak said:

It's clear to me that particularly with E-class, Celebrity wants to be the Instagram of cruise lines. As long as the pictures look good, substance matters little.

 

There's a lot of disingenuity from X.  Just a few examples...You can have a steak in the MDR every night, but does it taste good?  They sell a pre-owned rolex but you can't have it serviced at a rolex dealer.  They make it appear they're selling new handbags but they're pre-owned

[jean87510]

2 hours ago, cruisingator2 said:

One area that I thought of. It seems that X is having a difficult time in staffing up at their call center. I would at least like to see the system upgraded to place a caller in line with a “call back” system in place of having to be placed on hold for long periods of time. 

They do have a call back system.  

[NMTraveller]

They could cut out the GOOP cruises and that would not concern me in the least.  I would consider that an upgrade.

[RichYak]

6 minutes ago, NutsAboutGolf said:

They sell a pre-owned rolex but you can't have it serviced at a rolex dealer.  They make it appear they're selling new handbags but they're pre-owned

I never knew X sold pre-owned merchandise.

[NutsAboutGolf]

44 minutes ago, mnocket said:

I've begun to question whether there is a path forward for the so-called Premium cruise lines. Can they  cut their way to survival or is the Premium cruise line cost/service model no longer viable? Rather than linking to my post about this in another forum, I'll repost it below...

 

As I've thought about cruise line troubles I've come to wonder if the so-called premium lines (Celebrity, Princess, HAL) are really the most at risk. I think the luxury lines will do fine as they have more pricing power and an affluent customer base.  They will also benefit as refuges from the premium lines move upscale.

 

The family-friendly mainstream lines will also probably do fine as I think this demographic still sees cruising as a good value proposition.

 

It's the premium lines that I worry about.  Those customers are more sensitive to the value they get for their vacation dollar.  They tend to be experienced cruisers and yearn for cruising "the way it used to be".  Judging from recent trip reports, these ships seem to still be sailing at far from full capacity.

 

Predictions:

1. The distinction between premium and mass market cruise lines will shrink to the point where there is little to no difference.  I wouldn't be surprise if parent companies decide that the premium category is no longer sustainable and they fold these ships into their mass market brands. Either this or one or more of the premium branded companies will declare bankruptcy (I don't know enough about how  the parent companies are organized to know if say Celebrity can declare bankruptcy separate from the other RCCL companies).
2. Virgin Voyages will be no more in 12-24 months.  Their target customer base failed to show up in the anticipated numbers causing the company to shift directions.  The result is they are stuck in no-man's land.  I just don't see a path to viability - Virgin does eventually cut loose unprofitable brands.

 

With X, being a premium line does not translate to premium food or entertainment.  Carnivals newest ships blow X away with entertainment and also in complimentary food.  This taps into your first prediction

 

100% disagree with you on Virgin Voyages as they really haven't even started to do any cutbacks yet

[twincheryl]

3 hours ago, bebe08 said:

Would love to see more pub style food and even a sit down pub style restaurant.  Could make the buffet smaller to accommodate this.  I would like a more casual dining option that is not the buffet.  I think there is a lot of waste at the buffet and they need to downsize it....sounds like this may already be happening.   Pub style food would typically be cheaper than the MDR fare...thinking burgers, fajitias, fish and chips, wraps etc.  NCL does this well with the O'Shehans resturant.  

Love this idea... several lines have done this and before we started sailing Celebrity almost exclusively we very much enjoyed those dining venues.  Agree with O'Shehans... it was great!

[NutsAboutGolf]

16 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I have difficulty defining Celebrity, Princess or HAL as "Premium" lines.  They are upper-level mass market lines, at best. Celebrity, of all of them, most likes to pretend to being more, but mainly due to what they provide suite customers. However.....MSC and NCL also have their own insulated suite classes and wouldn't be considered "Premium" because of it.

 

For me: 

Mass Market Family-Friendly Lines = Carnival, NCL, Costa, MSC, RCCL (top of this bunch)

 

Mass Market Higher End/Less Family Oriented = Princess, HAL, Celebrity

 

Premium = Oceania, Azamara, Viking

 

Luxury = Regent, Seabourn, Silversea, Crystal (back in the day)

 

Of course, their CEOs each have their own take on this. 😂. In a world where every child has to be unique, they all insist that their cruise line doesn't "fit into established categories" but is something more.

 

To illustrate, a quote from LLP about Celebrity:

 

In Lisa Lutoff-Perlo’s eyes, the labels are “antiquated.” As CEO of Celebrity Cruises, she argues that the brand is a luxury product that can’t seem to shake the perception that it is in the premium bucket....

 

Celebrity isn’t “ultraluxury,” she said, with the “white-glove, one-hand-behind-your-back, caviar-formal type of service with small ships. We’re this relaxed luxury that’s beautiful, that’s luxurious, that’s elevated. And we’re not premium, because we’re better than that.” 

 

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Defying-cruise-categorization

 

Oh really, Lisa?  I venture to bet that on lines that are "better than premium" there is no upcharge for room service or second lobsters, and I'll bet you can still find premium cuts of beef on the menu.

 

That was great, thanks for sharing.  I'd love for any X exec including LLP to go to a restaurant and be served an X MDR steak...Everyone KNOWS she would send it back...lol

[NutsAboutGolf]

3 minutes ago, RichYak said:

I never knew X sold pre-owned merchandise.

 

Exactly my point...Here's an example

 

 

[mnocket]

2 minutes ago, NutsAboutGolf said:

100% disagree with you on Virgin Voyages as they really haven't even started to do any cutbacks yet

My prediction is not based on VV making cutbacks.  That said, it's only my prediction and I may well be proven wrong.  Time will tell.

[NutsAboutGolf]

14 minutes ago, sherylc said:

My answer might not be popular, but I think Celebrity needs to find the cruise price that allows them to offer the previous quality of service/food that their loyal customers have come to expect. I have sailed many times with Celebrity, but think my upcoming March trip might be my last at least for awhile. I would be happy to pay a little more to have the quality experience I’ve grown used to. What I’m not happy with is hearing about all of the changes that have occurred AFTER I made final payment in December. I feel a bit like I’m held hostage to go on a cruise substantially different from what I expected when I booked and then paid for the cruise. The question is which population Celebrity is going after. They might attract new cruisers for the lower price point, but lose people like me who know what cruising with Celebrity “should be.” 
 

 

 

The problem is they can raise prices and "promise" better food but you have no guarantees thanks to the cruise contract.  They can decide to lower food quality at anytime after final payment

[NutsAboutGolf]

10 minutes ago, jean87510 said:

They do have a call back system.  

 

Very rarely have I "triggered" the call back system.  I'd guess 95% of the time I have no choice but to remain on hold

[jean87510]

12 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I have difficulty defining Celebrity, Princess or HAL as "Premium" lines.  They are upper-level mass market lines, at best. Celebrity, of all of them, most likes to pretend to being more, but mainly due to what they provide suite customers. However.....MSC and NCL also have their own insulated suite classes and wouldn't be considered "Premium" because of it.

 

For me: 

Mass Market Family-Friendly Lines = Carnival, NCL, Costa, MSC, RCCL (top of this bunch)

 

Mass Market Higher End/Less Family Oriented = Princess, HAL, Celebrity

 

Premium = Oceania, Azamara, Viking

 

Luxury = Regent, Seabourn, Silversea, Crystal (back in the day)

 

Of course, their CEOs each have their own take on this. 😂. In a world where every child has to be unique, they all insist that their cruise line doesn't "fit into established categories" but is something more.

 

To illustrate, a quote from LLP about Celebrity:

 

In Lisa Lutoff-Perlo’s eyes, the labels are “antiquated.” As CEO of Celebrity Cruises, she argues that the brand is a luxury product that can’t seem to shake the perception that it is in the premium bucket....

 

Celebrity isn’t “ultraluxury,” she said, with the “white-glove, one-hand-behind-your-back, caviar-formal type of service with small ships. We’re this relaxed luxury that’s beautiful, that’s luxurious, that’s elevated. And we’re not premium, because we’re better than that.” 

 

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Defying-cruise-categorization

 

Oh really, Lisa?  I venture to bet that on lines that are "better than premium" there is no upcharge for room service or second lobsters, and I'll bet you can still find premium cuts of beef on the menu.

She needs to stop hanging out with Gwyneth.  Seriously, I don't really understand some of the cut backs.  You see these commercials for the Beyond and the other Edge class ships with the art and the decor and the cabins refurbishment...etc...But then you have to nickel and dime the Oceanview Cafe or room service as 2 examples?  Or go to 1x a day turn down?  My issue is if the gratuities increase and the service and product decreases, I may be less inclined to waste thousands on Celebrity when I can probably for a little more get what I want on a luxury line.  I'd rather not do that but I think unfortunately I may.

[NutsAboutGolf]

8 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

They could cut out the GOOP cruises and that would not concern me in the least.  I would consider that an upgrade.

 

I believe the whole idea is to have Gwyneth Paltrow aboard for marketing purpose; maybe LLP is using this as an opportunity to hang out with Gwyneth