Casinos gone?

[Shorex]

1 hour ago, edgee said:

Sounds like Crystal is rubbing it in by denigrating those of us who enjoy the casino and won't cruise without one. Message of "don't let the door hit you on the way out" clearly received. 

Ouch. What strong language to apply to a brief comment about the "direction of the product" which was perhaps being influenced by a few of previous clientele. Whatever the driving force of the decision to eliminate the casino happened to be, it was a business decision. But good news, it won't matter to you at all because you won't cruise without a casino under any circumstance. Auf Wiedersehen.

[Texas Tillie]

2 hours ago, edgee said:

Sounds like Crystal is rubbing it in by denigrating those of us who enjoy the casino and won't cruise without one. Message of "don't let the door hit you on the way out" clearly received. 

 

My interpretation is that was aimed at the Genting "high rollers" who probably wouldn't have returned to the new Crystal anyway. Everyone has a feature that's nonnegotiable. No ship can be everything to everyone. Happy sailing wherever you "land".

 

Patty

[Leejnd4]

3 hours ago, edgee said:

Sounds like Crystal is rubbing it in by denigrating those of us who enjoy the casino and won't cruise without one. Message of "don't let the door hit you on the way out" clearly received. 

 

That's not how I interpreted it. To be clear, here is the exact quote:

 

"Management felt that the positioning of the product was not congruent with certain of the clientele attracted to the casino amenity." 

 

Note the phrase "certain of the clientele". Sounds to me like they were referring to a specific subset of clients who used the casinos, who for whatever reason (presumably their onboard behavior) are not the types of guests Crystal wants to attract. Certainly, not everyone who enjoyed the casinos behaved in a way that was not congruent with the Crystal product. So unless you believe your onboard behavior would cause you to fall within that subset of incongruent guests, then this wasn't directed at you.

 

But of course if you DO fall within that subset of guests, then I would agree that you are smart to have "clearly received" the message, and I wish you all the best in whatever ship's casino you land in. 🙂 

[Keith1010]

When the question about why casino came up this is precisely the answer given.

 

"I think it was a conversation around the direction of the product that we wanted to go not mixing well with some of the former casino guests that we had."

 

Having been on the webinar live as some of you were I thought the answer came across very thoughtful.

 

If someone wants to take it as they are showing you the door that is ones prerogative.  I don't think the was the case though.

 

Interestingly enough while I know this is a deal breaker for some I know of some people who do love casinos including on land and four of them who I would see in the high rollers room on the 2020 World Cruise and they are returning for the 2024 World Cruise. Like most things each person will make their own decisions.

 

Keith

[edgee]

9 minutes ago, Leejnd4 said:

 

That's not how I interpreted it. To be clear, here is the exact quote:

 

"Management felt that the positioning of the product was not congruent with certain of the clientele attracted to the casino amenity." 

 

Note the phrase "certain of the clientele". Sounds to me like they were referring to a specific subset of clients who used the casinos, who for whatever reason (presumably their onboard behavior) are not the types of guests Crystal wants to attract. Certainly, not everyone who enjoyed the casinos behaved in a way that was not congruent with the Crystal product. So unless you believe your onboard behavior would cause you to fall within that subset of incongruent guests, then this wasn't directed at you.

 

But of course if you DO fall within that subset of guests, then I would agree that you are smart to have "clearly received" the message, and I wish you all the best in whatever ship's casino you land in. 🙂 

The exact quote reflects a business decision. I get that. However, the phrasing reflects a certain arrogance which is certainly off putting. As others have mentioned, they could have avoided 

 

2 minutes ago, Keith1010 said:

When the question about why casino came up this is precisely the answer given.

 

"I think it was a conversation around the direction of the product that we wanted to go not mixing well with some of the former casino guests that we had."

 

Having been on the webinar live as some of you were I thought the answer came across very thoughtful.

 

If someone wants to take it as they are showing you the door that is ones prerogative.  I don't think the was the case though.

 

Interestingly enough while I know this is a deal breaker for some I know of some people who do love casinos including on land and four of them who I would see in the high rollers room on the 2020 World Cruise and they are returning for the 2024 World Cruise. Like most things each person will make their own decisions.

 

Keith

Thoughtful answer, as usual, Keith. IMHO NC could have kept the casino and largely addressed the “types of casino guests” issue by no longer offering significant numbers of comped cruises or other substantial enticements to high rollers. On the other hand, since the new owners do not AFAIK have an affiliation with a casino hotel/cruise entity, they would likely have had to contract the casino operations out to another company like old Crystal used to do with Caesars. Maybe not worth the cost and operational headaches. Of course other luxury cruise lines which offer a casino already have affiliations with larger casino operations such as Explora with MSC, Regent with NCL, Seabourn with Carnival and now Silversea with RCCL. We now cruise mostly on Regent, Oceania and sometimes Celebrity Retreat class depending on timing and the itinerary. What we do miss from our prior Crystal experiences is (of course), the enrichment and entertainment. However, as marvelous as the service and people were and hopefully will continue to be on Crystal, we have similarly found many outstanding, kind crew members and great service on these other cruise lines. Happy cruising to all!

 

Ed

[FlyerTalker]

One data point - take it for what it's worth:

 

On a certain cruise, I crossed paths with a couple of "comped" guests who had dropped significant amounts at Genting casinos.  Let's just say that their sense of entitlement was off the charts.

 

I suspect, but have no hard evidence, that some OC hotel management folks made significant input as to question of casinos.  Their memories may be even more vivid than mine, as they probably bore the brunt of that entitlement mentality.

 

 

[Leejnd4]

46 minutes ago, FlyerTalker said:

One data point - take it for what it's worth:

 

On a certain cruise, I crossed paths with a couple of "comped" guests who had dropped significant amounts at Genting casinos.  Let's just say that their sense of entitlement was off the charts.

 

I suspect, but have no hard evidence, that some OC hotel management folks made significant input as to question of casinos.  Their memories may be even more vivid than mine, as they probably bore the brunt of that entitlement mentality.

 

 

 

I recall seeing some guests who spent a lot of time in the casino on my last Symphony cruise, that I made a point of avoiding, based on...I dunno...I can't tell you exactly what it was, but they seemed very different from the rest of the passengers. I didn't know at the time that Genting was comping high rollers, but now that I know this, it makes sense.

 

I don't personally enjoy gambling myself, and therefore spent no time at all in the casino so it wasn't hard to avoid these passengers, who seemed to spend most of their time in there. But I'm one of those who will be happy to see all that space used for something else.

 

Also, I find it interesting that the Paul Gauguin recently removed their casino as well! They extended the piano bar. I'm thrilled! I always thought their piano bar was too small, and the casino was hardly used and seemed like wasted space. I'll be on the PG in November, and will enjoy the larger piano bar.

 

 

[Cruise-y]

If you gamble a lot you will always lose overall. It’s just simple statistics because the odds are with the house, and heavily so on slots. If you are getting comped luxury cruises you are losing a ton of money. And you are not on the cruise to do anything but gamble.  
 

I can see why AK doesn’t want those types, but unfortunately it impacts those who just want to have fun and spend the money for a little entertainment. I don’t gamble only because it’s not fun for me, so I don’t care if the casinos go. But I can see why some will miss them. 

[Leejnd4]

46 minutes ago, Cruise-y said:

If you gamble a lot you will always lose overall. It’s just simple statistics because the odds are with the house, and heavily so on slots. If you are getting comped luxury cruises you are losing a ton of money. And you are not on the cruise to do anything but gamble.  
 

I can see why AK doesn’t want those types, but unfortunately it impacts those who just want to have fun and spend the money for a little entertainment. I don’t gamble only because it’s not fun for me, so I don’t care if the casinos go. But I can see why some will miss them. 

 

Agree with all of this!

 

I personally can't fathom spending most of my time on a luxury cruise, in a beautiful and interesting part of the world, doing something I could be doing deep in the bowels of the Vegas Strip where it doesn't matter what's outside the casino. But as Keith always points out, everyone is different, and there's the right vacation out there for everyone!

 

And yes, you explained exactly why I don't enjoy gambling - I'm well aware that it's highly unlikely I will come out ahead, so it just feels like throwing away money. That being said, I do recall having a really fun time one night after dinner on a Regent cruise with a bunch of people from our roll call, playing at the Roulette table! But I saw that as more a social activity than actual gambling. I set aside a certain (pretty small) amount of money to spend on it, knowing I would lose it, and just hoping it didn't happen too fast. Fortunately I won enough to keep my play going for about an hour before it was all gone, and we had a good time. So yes, I can understand why some people will miss having that as an option for a social activity.

 

I myself won't miss having that option, if it keeps the types of passengers FlyerTalker was referring to away. 😉 

[Keith1010]

I realize the loss of the casino is upsetting to some.  I have seen frustration on this board and one other forum.  While many have said they don't care, and some have said they utilized the casino on occasion but not a big deal there are some who have said it is a deal breaker.  

 

Like many things this was a business decision made by the new ownership.  We will never know whether or not there was more to it than what was said or if it was also a financial decision.  Many things happen behind the scenes on ships just like on land in companies that we, as guests, are not aware of.  I have no idea whether or not casinos are profitable or not and all that is involved with their operations including things such as overhead.

 

Over the years we have seen many changes in what is offered and not everyone was applauded by everyone.  This includes pretty much everything from room design, to food and beverage to entertainment and enrichment to evening attire and the list goes on and on.  Some of the changes brought new guests to the fold while some resulted in some guests moving on.

 

This is a business and as such the owner can make changes and the customer can decide whether they will continue sailing or move on.

 

We don't know all the details behind the decision.  Crystal won't be the only cruise line without a casino even though the majority of the lines presently have them. And certainly some lines put more emphasis on them than other lines.  Crystal Endeavor had a very large casino given the overall size of the ship and one of the first things when SS bought the ship was the announcement there would not be a casino.  I don't believe they ever explained why but if I am wrong on that I am sure someone will correct me.

 

We all have different reasons for cruising and the good news is thee are lots of choices.  I think we should be understanding of those who are not happy about the change but at the same time those who are unhappy about the change should understand a decision has been made and either accept it or move on. I say this respectfully.  

 

Keith

 

 

[Roland4]

17 hours ago, Leejnd4 said:

 

Agree with all of this!

 

I personally can't fathom spending most of my time on a luxury cruise, in a beautiful and interesting part of the world, doing something I could be doing deep in the bowels of the Vegas Strip where it doesn't matter what's outside the casino. But as Keith always points out, everyone is different, and there's the right vacation out there for everyone!

 

And yes, you explained exactly why I don't enjoy gambling - I'm well aware that it's highly unlikely I will come out ahead, so it just feels like throwing away money. That being said, I do recall having a really fun time one night after dinner on a Regent cruise with a bunch of people from our roll call, playing at the Roulette table! But I saw that as more a social activity than actual gambling. I set aside a certain (pretty small) amount of money to spend on it, knowing I would lose it, and just hoping it didn't happen too fast. Fortunately I won enough to keep my play going for about an hour before it was all gone, and we had a good time. So yes, I can understand why some people will miss having that as an option for a social activity.

 

I myself won't miss having that option, if it keeps the types of passengers FlyerTalker was referring to away. 😉 

We are not "casino people", so this does not bother us either way. I do have to admit on the 2020 World Cruise we spent more time in the casino than any prior cruise. It was our lifeboat station!!😁

 

Interestingly, in the last nine months we have been on Regent, Silversea and Seabourn twice, and the one thing they all have in common are very small casinos that never seemed to be busy, and often times were empty! Given the success of Viking Ocean, and the PG removing their casino, have the higher end lines decided the revenue gained is not worth the cost of running them? Just a thought.

[tryber]

We've booked a 2024 cruise with my parents.  When I told my mom there would be no casinos, she was upset.  She liked to play the $5 blackjack tables that don't exist anywhere in Vegas anymore (it's hard to find anything less than $25 tables on the strip, and they're$50 to $100 on weekends).   Their statement was obviously directed to the high rollers, not my mom.  Nobody makes money on $5 blackjack players, so it's a losing proposition if you are not attracting any high rollers.  That's obviously the reason for their decision.  

Edited June 17, 2023 by tryber

[Leejnd4]

1 hour ago, Roland4 said:

We are not "casino people", so this does not bother us either way. I do have to admit on the 2020 World Cruise we spent more time in the casino than any prior cruise. It was our lifeboat station!!😁

 

Interestingly, in the last nine months we have been on Regent, Silversea and Seabourn twice, and the one thing they all have in common are very small casinos that never seemed to be busy, and often times were empty! Given the success of Viking Ocean, and the PG removing their casino, have the higher end lines decided the revenue gained is not worth the cost of running them? Just a thought.

 

On my last PG cruise, I don't think I saw anyone in their tiny casino even ONCE! It was a pretty forlorn looking spot. I imagine some people went in there when I wasn't around, but it just seemed like such a waste of space. I'm sure it will be far better utilized now that they've converted it into an extended piano bar. I'm definitely a piano bar kinda person!

 

I just think that the higher-end lines don't attract the types of people who like to spend hours in casinos. Just like you don't find water slides, go-carts, and zip lines on luxury ships! Not what luxury cruise ship pax are generally interested in. There are plenty of ships that are just right for people interested in casinos.

 

 

[Jimmycruiser]

Being very familiar with the gaming industry, the smaller the number of gamblers and the reduced hours available to gamble make it very difficult for the ship casino to cover its costs especially since it requires highly skilled employees.  The house advantage is based on the difference between the true odds of winning and the house determined actual payout and is expressed as a percentage of dollars wagered and therefore requires a lot of dollar action to become significant and worth the risk and effort. Casinos are learning that “High Rollers” are smart gamblers that know how to minimize the risk and house advantage while being offset by the comps they require for their action and therefore are high maintenance and less valuable to the casino than originally thought.

 

It is much easier for the larger mainstream ships casinos to make money than the smaller luxury ships because they have many more gamblers, many of which are less knowledgeable, and therefore more valuable and require less comps. 
 

Azamara has also eliminated the Casino and I believe you will see more small ship luxury lines do the same over the next couple of years.

 

 

 

[Leejnd4]

16 minutes ago, Jimmycruiser said:

Being very familiar with the gaming industry, the smaller the number of gamblers and the reduced hours available to gamble make it very difficult for the ship casino to cover its costs especially since it requires highly skilled employees.  The house advantage is based on the difference between the true odds of winning and the house determined actual payout and is expressed as a percentage of dollars wagered and therefore requires a lot of dollar action to become significant and worth the risk and effort. Casinos are learning that “High Rollers” are smart gamblers that know how to minimize the risk and house advantage while being offset by the comps they require for their action and therefore are high maintenance and less valuable to the casino than originally thought.

 

It is much easier for the larger mainstream ships casinos to make money than the smaller luxury ships because they have many more gamblers, many of which are less knowledgeable, and therefore more valuable and require less comps. 
 

Azamara has also eliminated the Casino and I believe you will see more small ship luxury lines do the same over the next couple of years.

 

Now this sounds like a very knowledgeable take! And makes a lot of sense. 

[ChatKat in Ca.]

We were talking about cruising and casinos this evening at dinner. 

 

We have several casinos in the area we live in.  We've lived here almost 6 years and I have gone to the tables less than 4-5 times.

Yet, on a ship I like to play onboard. I'm not a big gambler but I enjoy the play. After all, I am on vacation.  The local casinos are not my cup of tea. The rules are bent for the house. Our last cruise was on Regent, I enjoyed playing blackjack.  It's more a social activity and the Crystal Casinos offered "social" play. 

I guess I will take it as it comes but I will miss the fun part of playing.

 

 

[Keith1010]

5 hours ago, Jimmycruiser said:

Being very familiar with the gaming industry, the smaller the number of gamblers and the reduced hours available to gamble make it very difficult for the ship casino to cover its costs especially since it requires highly skilled employees.  The house advantage is based on the difference between the true odds of winning and the house determined actual payout and is expressed as a percentage of dollars wagered and therefore requires a lot of dollar action to become significant and worth the risk and effort. Casinos are learning that “High Rollers” are smart gamblers that know how to minimize the risk and house advantage while being offset by the comps they require for their action and therefore are high maintenance and less valuable to the casino than originally thought.

 

It is much easier for the larger mainstream ships casinos to make money than the smaller luxury ships because they have many more gamblers, many of which are less knowledgeable, and therefore more valuable and require less comps. 
 

Azamara has also eliminated the Casino and I believe you will see more small ship luxury lines do the same over the next couple of years.

 

 

 

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this.  They seem very logical and possibly this coupled with the comments from the webinar Q&A combined are the reasons for this as when the answer was provided  my sense is that it was due to a combination of reasons.  I might add to it on top of the smaller number of gamblers most cruises have all ports except for one sea day compared to years ago when almost every cruise had three or more sea days and with overnights and late port departures there is less time for the casino to be opened so less hours of play.

 

I am glad you will be back to cruising soon.  I was wondering why you hadn't posted of late and now understand why.  Very happy that your surgery was a success and you are also able to post agiain.

 

Keith

[CwazeAndCwaze]

[parallax]

I think it is reasonable for people to be bothered by this decision. Some people enjoy spending a little time at a casino on a cruise.  This is no different if people were upset because Crystal got rid of the dance ambassadors or the pickle ball court. 

 

We are not  fans of the entertainment provided on cruise lines.  I find it mediocre at best.  A show like the "Tribute to Eighties"  reminds me of the horrible variety shows of the 1970s.  As a result, with few exceptions, we do not attend shows.  I find casinos as a way to socialize after dinner for an hour or two.  The only time I gamble is on a cruse ship or if I find myself in Vegas.  While a casino is not a prerequisite, it is a factor when we book a cruise.  At this time, I would only consider Crystal if it was a port extensive cruise and the itinerary was better than what the competition provides.   

[ijkh]

21 hours ago, CwazeAndCwaze said:

Don't fret maybe they will have binge-o.

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

On 6/17/2023 at 11:03 AM, Roland4 said:

Interestingly, in the last nine months we have been on Regent, Silversea and Seabourn twice, and the one thing they all have in common are very small casinos that never seemed to be busy, and often times were empty! Given the success of Viking Ocean, and the PG removing their casino, have the higher end lines decided the revenue gained is not worth the cost of running them? Just a thought.

I understand the math that if you gamble enough you will always end up losing, but since I have gambled very very little my mileage did vary:  3 'slot pull' get togethers with Cruise Critic roll call groups that each came out ahead [pennies, but positive].  And even then each of us only risked $20.

 

So my analysis of luxury cruise ship casinos is that they depend on those who spend lots of time there, and especially the high rollers (even if comped), to make the casino operation profitable.  Duffers like me [and others who have posted here that they spend just a little time in the casino] don't lose enough to pay the salaries and equipment costs.  And I have seen lots of reports on Cruise Critic that the casinos on even premium cruise ships are usually empty ... no way to make money if no one is betting!

[edgee]

On 6/17/2023 at 11:42 PM, ChatKat in Ca. said:

We were talking about cruising and casinos this evening at dinner. 

 

We have several casinos in the area we live in.  We've lived here almost 6 years and I have gone to the tables less than 4-5 times.

Yet, on a ship I like to play onboard. I'm not a big gambler but I enjoy the play. After all, I am on vacation.  The local casinos are not my cup of tea. The rules are bent for the house. Our last cruise was on Regent, I enjoyed playing blackjack.  It's more a social activity and the Crystal Casinos offered "social" play. 

I guess I will take it as it comes but I will miss the fun part of playing.

 

 

We love love love escaping New York winters in your community and spend many evenings (when not at the McCallum Theatre) enjoying your now non smoking (yea!) casinos.

[ChatKat in Ca.]

3 hours ago, edgee said:

We love love love escaping New York winters in your community and spend many evenings (when not at the McCallum Theatre) enjoying your now non smoking (yea!) casinos.

We love the MacCallum Theater too!  I just heard about a casino that is more local players.  I might have to check it out.

 

[Alpacalady1]

I've certainly enjoyed the casino and it's energy. Usually would head there if no seating available in the saloon 

[poke the bear]

3 hours ago, Alpacalady1 said:

I've certainly enjoyed the casino and it's energy. Usually would head there if no seating available in the saloon 

 

Have we met, Alpacalady? Maybe when I was spit in the eye by an alpaca in Loveland a few years ago. We talked about Crystal - I mean you and me, not the offending alpaca. My name is Michael B.