Viking Final Payment

[Roz]

Which means they use their customers' money instead of taking out bank loans. 

[Coral]

12 hours ago, Roz said:

Which means they use their customers' money instead of taking out bank loans. 

Yep!

 

To their credit (and I rarely give Viking credit) - they were probably the most solvent of all the lines during COVID.

[CastleCritic]

1 hour ago, Coral said:

Yep!

 

To their credit (and I rarely give Viking credit) - they were probably the most solvent of all the lines during COVID.

that may or may not be true, they certainly haven't show any signs of stress.  I wonder how they pay for their ships, financed or just pay the builders cash, I know AMA just pays for the ships at delivery and didnt have payments to deal with in 2020, and I can attest firsthand AMA was running a lot of ships at 1/3 capacity there for parts of 2021 and 2022 (and even last month the ship was only about 2/3 full but that was the eastern Danube not the most popular spot) and I didnt see any signs of cutting back like you hear on the ocean lines.

Edited June 23, 2023 by CastleCritic

[Host Jazzbeau]

8 hours ago, Coral said:

Yep!

 

To their credit (and I rarely give Viking credit) - they were probably the most solvent of all the lines during COVID.

Except AMA which owns all 28 of its ships and has no debt – and took care of their employees throughout Covid [per their recent webinar with my travel agent]

[angelsil]

Yesterday I booked a November 2024 cruise on Viking to take advantage of the $25 deposit. I was expecting to be told I had to pay the final by 9/30/2023 as that's what the Viking website said.

 

I ended up booking (via recommendations here) via a TA and my final payment date is showing as 8/9/2024. I'm gonna reach out and confirm with the TA but that is a FAR better payment date for a cruise that's far out. I wonder if different agencies have different negotations.

[Host Jazzbeau]

On 6/23/2023 at 8:15 AM, Coral said:

Yep!

 

To their credit (and I rarely give Viking credit) - they were probably the most solvent of all the lines during COVID.

Maybe compared to the big three, but Viking does have a large amount of debt:

Viking refinances with $720m notes sale

[CastleCritic]

26 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Maybe compared to the big three, but Viking does have a large amount of debt:

Viking refinances with $720m notes sale

Im not the most financial savvy guru ever but this sounds like their bonds are really rated very well with that kind of interest rate, 13%?.  I dont take this as a sign of doom but I would certainly hate to see them go downhill or out.

 

Viking sold $720m in 9.125% senior notes due 2031 in a private offering. 

 

The company plans to use the proceeds, together with cash on hand, to redeem its 13% senior secured notes due 2025. Those were issued in May 2020 following the industry's global shutdown two months earlier due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

 

this says they are going to be just fine though

 

So far in 2023, Viking's ocean bookings are up 53% on 2019 while river bookings are up 12%. Some 89% of ocean capacity and 95% of river capacity is booked.

For 2024, 49% of ocean capacity and 31% of river capacity is booked.

Edited June 30, 2023 by CastleCritic

[Host Jazzbeau]

I don't follow cruise line stocks well enough to predict what this means for Viking's future, just contrasting it with AMA that as no debt at all.  It does seem to me that Viking's model is constant expansion based on mortgaging all existing assets to finance new ones – a classic real estate model, but one that classically leads to occasional bankruptcies when oversaturation or a downturn interrupts the expansion mode.  I much prefer AMA's measured expansion, with each new ship paid for with cash.

 

Going back to 1961, here is how the expansionist model was described in Swing Your Projects in the Broadway show Subways Are for Sleeping:

 

[Cisterna]

Interesting topic ~ putting in my 2  - don't know if it is true but fellow European travelers on Viking Polaris  told me that in the UK and other countries,  cruise companies are not allowed to charge less for cash than for credit cards (ie. Viking gives a substantial  discount for ACH direct payments). Also they must keep  a huge percentage of passenger funds available until the ship actually sales, which results in their inability to use the funds for future builds and investors.  In the US they can charge big credit card fees, give cash discounts and use the money for future builds and debt payments. They also said their full payment schedule is not 12 months or more out. And they get better full payment refunds on cancellations, and more cash  rather than future cruise credits as we do in the U.S. 

[dd57]

31 minutes ago, Cisterna said:

Interesting topic ~ putting in my 2  - don't know if it is true but fellow European travelers on Viking Polaris  told me that in the UK and other countries,  cruise companies are not allowed to charge less for cash than for credit cards (ie. Viking gives a substantial  discount for ACH direct payments). Also they must keep  a huge percentage of passenger funds available until the ship actually sales, which results in their inability to use the funds for future builds and investors.  In the US they can charge big credit card fees, give cash discounts and use the money for future builds and debt payments. They also said their full payment schedule is not 12 months or more out. And they get better full payment refunds on cancellations, and more cash  rather than future cruise credits as we do in the U.S. 

In the US, vendors have to pay the credit card companies for using their payment service, anywhere from 1.5 % to 3.5% depending on the network (Visa, MC, AmEx, etc).  When you use ACH, Viking is crediting you most of what they would have to pay out if you use a credit card.

Edited July 1, 2023 by dd57

[Roz]

But paying by ACH doesn't give you the same protection as paying with a credit card. 

[Host Jazzbeau]

18 minutes ago, Roz said:

But paying by ACH doesn't give you the same protection as paying with a credit card. 

As customers of Crystal and Vantage have found out.  Not only should you always use a Credit Card, if you are booking very far out (or might get a credit that stretches things very far out) you are better off with Amex because they will look back much further than Visa or Mastercard.

[Cisterna]

" Vendors " in the UK  and EU countries also pay credit card fees. They don't charge the customer like they do in the US!   And they are not allowed to give discounts for paying in cash.  Consumer protections are much better in the UK and EU countries than in the US.

[Host Jazzbeau]

3 hours ago, Cisterna said:

" Vendors " in the UK  and EU countries also pay credit card fees. They don't charge the customer like they do in the US!   And they are not allowed to give discounts for paying in cash.  Consumer protections are much better in the UK and EU countries than in the US.

Wait.  Not getting a discount is better???

[sharkster77]

8 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Wait.  Not getting a discount is better???

Many travel credit cards give 3% or more cashback for travel purchases.  Isn't the discount for paying by "check" often 3%?  In that case it would be the same discount, but with the protection of using a credit card.

[CPT Trips]

16 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Wait.  Not getting a discount is better???

OK, didn’t you say to “always use a credit card?” Aren’t those who paid cash in order to get a discount from the defunct cruise lines less likely to see their money. 
 

Air travelers (including non-EU citizens) in the EU are much better protected and compensated than those in the US when there are flight disruptions leading to delays. 

[Host Jazzbeau]

7 minutes ago, CPT Trips said:

OK, didn’t you say to “always use a credit card?” Aren’t those who paid cash in order to get a discount from the defunct cruise lines less likely to see their money. 
 

Air travelers (including non-EU citizens) in the EU are much better protected and compensated than those in the US when there are flight disruptions leading to delays. 

I don’t know what you’re arguing about, but it doesn’t seem relevant to my reply to Cisterna. 

[Host Jazzbeau]

Reminder:  you can't ask for or give Travel Agent/cy information.  No names or even hints.

[jklmcasey]

On 6/16/2023 at 12:49 PM, cruiselvr04 said:

We have sailed with Viking river.  We got around the 16 months out by booking late at 5 months out.  But that doesn’t work with cruises like Egypt that are booking out for 2025 now.  
 

So who do I look at for a similar product?  We loved Viking but I’m not willing to part with my money so far in advance.  Can someone suggest which line is comparable in trip and price?

We have switched from Viking to Uniworld.  If you are flexible on your travel dates you can travel with them the same or cheaper than Viking.   We did Egypt in May of this year on Uniworld.  

[Got2Cruise]

On 7/1/2023 at 8:33 PM, Host Jazzbeau said:

As customers of Crystal and Vantage have found out.  Not only should you always use a Credit Card, if you are booking very far out (or might get a credit that stretches things very far out) you are better off with Amex because they will look back much further than Visa or Mastercard.

Ohhh I didn’t realize that about AMEX. I use the Costco VISA because of the 3% cash back but now I’m going to have to re think it. I usually book less than one year ahead so I’m going to have to do some research. Which in my case means asking credit card gurus on a FB group lol 

[JES4845]

Thanks for the earlier postings.  Jumping in with our frustrating experience today.  We are no stranger to high end cruises - over 30 on an ocean-going, non-river boutique line.  Wanted to do a Christmas market cruise in December 2024.  Had heard good things about Viking and found an itinerary we wanted.  Website misleadingly said only a $25 deposit - HA!  Turns out as others here have found out they want final payment MORE THAN ONE YEAR in advance of December 2024.  Specifically, they wanted full payment by 10/31/23 for a cruise in early December 2024.  When I called, the Viking rep said they needed the money so early because of commitments to suppliers and vendors.  Huh?  Needless to say we won’t be booking with them now or ever for that matter.

[notamermaid]

9 hours ago, JES4845 said:

When I called, the Viking rep said they needed the money so early because of commitments to suppliers and vendors.  

That I would say is actually honest. Add commitment to banks, i.e. those giving the credits and owning the ships until they belong to Viking. They do this with you, dear friends in the US, because they can. In Europe: no.

 

Viking Flussreisen, the German company, was closed down quite a few years ago now, as the North-American market was more lucrative.

 

notamermaid

 

 

 

[sharkster77]

11 hours ago, JES4845 said:

Thanks for the earlier postings.  Jumping in with our frustrating experience today.  We are no stranger to high end cruises - over 30 on an ocean-going, non-river boutique line.  Wanted to do a Christmas market cruise in December 2024.  Had heard good things about Viking and found an itinerary we wanted.  Website misleadingly said only a $25 deposit - HA!  Turns out as others here have found out they want final payment MORE THAN ONE YEAR in advance of December 2024.  Specifically, they wanted full payment by 10/31/23 for a cruise in early December 2024.  When I called, the Viking rep said they needed the money so early because of commitments to suppliers and vendors.  Huh?  Needless to say we won’t be booking with them now or ever for that matter.

The flip side to paying early is that if you have to cancel before 120 days from sailing, you are only out $100 per person.  My travel agent tells me this is a smaller penalty than other cruise lines (this is her words, not mine---don't shoot the messenger if this is not the case).

[JES4845]

35 minutes ago, sharkster77 said:

The flip side to paying early is that if you have to cancel before 120 days from sailing, you are only out $100 per person.  My travel agent tells me this is a smaller penalty than other cruise lines (this is her words, not mine---don't shoot the messenger if this is not the case).

 

Fair point.  That said, everyone can make their own decision whether paying thousands of dollars so far in advance is worth the $100 cancellation fee.  I’m all for a healthy deposit, but full payment over a year in advance amounts to an interest-free loan to Viking.  More power to them if they can find folks to do it and apparently they do.  We just won’t be among them.

[sharkster77]

45 minutes ago, JES4845 said:

 

Fair point.  That said, everyone can make their own decision whether paying thousands of dollars so far in advance is worth the $100 cancellation fee.  I’m all for a healthy deposit, but full payment over a year in advance amounts to an interest-free loan to Viking.  More power to them if they can find folks to do it and apparently they do.  We just won’t be among them.

The bottom line is travel insurance----too many folks got burned when Vantage went under recently---one should never be vulnerable to losing thousands of dollars in this way.

 

I feel safe depositing early with Viking because of travel insurance---I'd otherwise be a fool.