Is Royal Caribbean building any small ships?

[Ourusualbeach]

47 minutes ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

I still find it interesting that last year RCI implied a new smaller ship class was going to be announced soon and that Utopia would be the last Oasis class ship. As of today no new ship class has officially been announced by RCI, but they did announce a 7th Oasis class ship would be built. It wouldn’t surprise me if RCI continues to focus on bigger ships for the near to distant future. RCI leadership always talks about how appealing their bigger ships are for families. Most families are going to be way more interested in bigger ships with all the bells and whistles, not a smaller ship with limited bells and whistles. My guess is RCI will/does generate a lot more money on bigger ships that attract families who are fairly new to cruising with little to no perks than a newer smaller class of ship that will likely attract older/more experienced cruisers who have a lot of perks due to their C&A status. 

The simple fact is that the big ships cannot service many of the existing itineraries that Royal offers.  As these smaller ships age out Royal has 2 choices. Either build new smaller ships or abandon many of their itineraries.  My money is on the new ships.  

[smokeybandit]

21 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

The simple fact is that the big ships cannot service many of the existing itineraries that Royal offers.  As these smaller ships age out Royal has 2 choices. Either build new smaller ships or abandon many of their itineraries.  My money is on the new ships.  

And the smaller ships are still big compared to competitor lines.

[PhillyFan33579]

15 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

The simple fact is that the big ships cannot service many of the existing itineraries that Royal offers.  As these smaller ships age out Royal has 2 choices. Either build new smaller ships or abandon many of their itineraries.  My money is on the new ships.  

A year ago I would have agreed with you 100 percent. I still tend to agree with you today, but recent moves and announcements by RCI at least make me pause to think about their future. Allure is already doing short cruises from Port Canaveral. Later this year, their two newest Oasis class ships, Utopia and Wonder, will be doing short cruises from Port Canaveral and Port Miami respectively. They are building new beach clubs in Nassau and Cozumel. They continue to expand Coco Cay and Labadee is another popular RCI port, although currently not being visited. There are still plenty of ports in the Caribbean that can support larger ships like Oasis and Icon class ships. The bottom line is RCI is a for profit business that has to answer to stockholders. If, and I don’t know if this is true or not, RCI can generate more revenue with a fleet of bigger ships that frequent RCI’s ports on a daily basis, it would not surprise me if at some point in the future RCI no longer goes to ports that cannot accommodate larger ships. 

[Saab4444]

55 minutes ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

A year ago I would have agreed with you 100 percent. I still tend to agree with you today, but recent moves and announcements by RCI at least make me pause to think about their future. Allure is already doing short cruises from Port Canaveral. Later this year, their two newest Oasis class ships, Utopia and Wonder, will be doing short cruises from Port Canaveral and Port Miami respectively. They are building new beach clubs in Nassau and Cozumel. They continue to expand Coco Cay and Labadee is another popular RCI port, although currently not being visited. There are still plenty of ports in the Caribbean that can support larger ships like Oasis and Icon class ships. The bottom line is RCI is a for profit business that has to answer to stockholders. If, and I don’t know if this is true or not, RCI can generate more revenue with a fleet of bigger ships that frequent RCI’s ports on a daily basis, it would not surprise me if at some point in the future RCI no longer goes to ports that cannot accommodate larger ships. 

Think outside the Caribbean. This would mean no more Royal in e.g. Northern Europe, Eastern Med and Alaska.

Edited April 23 by Saab4444

[lovesthebeach2]

On 12/30/2023 at 4:42 PM, Hoopster95 said:

If anyone wishes to see what "smaller" ships need to charge their customers in order to make the same profit margins as what Royal is making (let's perhaps call it a cruise industry average), take a look at what Oceania, Azamara and SilverSea charge. Are you willing to pay that? If you want Royal to build a small ship, that is what you will have to pay. I am 100% certain no one on this forum wants that. And the funny thing is with some current pricing on Utopia and Icon, today I can sail on a much superior luxury line with the best of everything on it much cheaper when you include internet, dining, beverages, etc.

 

The only reason why Royal still has their smaller ships is because they are fully paid for and any revenue produced on them is profit. Royal is 100% only about profit and the bottom line. The second the smaller ships do not make money, they are gone. They will keep small ships until they make no sense to keep (ie. like an old car with 250,000 miles that has been paid off for years, you keep putting gas in it and changing the oil but when the engine blows up you do not replace the engine, you simply scrap it and buy a new car). The technical issues of extra drydocks amongst many other factors just complicate their life span.  

 

Like many have said in previous posts/pages, Royal's target market is definitely the young family (mom & dad in the 30s and 40s with a couple of kids), and they want those kids to build up C&A points so when they are 25-35 years of age in the year 2040, they will not look at any other cruise line .... they will pay $20,000 for an inside cabin on the "Gargantuan of the Seas" because they are hooked on Royal Caribbean, going to 6 private fake islands and paying $5000 for a Cabana for 6 hours. That is exactly what has happened with families who's kids sailed in the year 2000 on Voyager.... today they are adults with kids bringing their families on Royal, not another cruise line, because of the C&A program. Royal's target market is not the mature cruiser wanting to travel the world, and definitely not the miserly cruiser who doesn't spend a dime on board.

I agree that absolutely Royal’s current target market is young families with kids taking short  “weekend” cruises.  BUT for those that cruise more than one or two weekends a year, the same cruise with the same destination gets boring and eventually they may want to branch out on different ships that can go places other than Royal’s private islands

 

And possibly those whose children have gotten older, and maybe they have more time,  MONEY and availability to cruise, may/will look around to see what else is out there.

[Twenty2020]

9 hours ago, Ourusualbeach said:

The simple fact is that the big ships cannot service many of the existing itineraries that Royal offers.  As these smaller ships age out Royal has 2 choices. Either build new smaller ships or abandon many of their itineraries.  My money is on the new ships.  

 

I kind of doubt it. Back when Royal was building ships like you are discussing they didn't own Celebrity or SS. They bought X in what...'97? And SS just a few years ago. 

 

So they were already building out and planning Voyager and Radiance class while they absorbed X, which was a very small line at the time.

 

Fast forward to today... The company now has a significant fleet of X ships with more coming. If cruisers are interested in that type of product RCG already offers it. 

 

Little reason for them to cannibalize sales from X rather than just building more X ships to service demand for those itineraries. Most brands don't attempt to be everything to everyone. Just like Carnival and Princess cater to different demos under the same parent company.

 

Edited April 23 by Twenty2020

[Ourusualbeach]

6 minutes ago, Twenty2020 said:

 

I kind of doubt it. Back when Royal was building ships like you are discussing they didn't own Celebrity or SS. They bought X in what...'97? And SS just a few years ago. 

 

So they were already building out and planning Voyager and Radiance class while they absorbed X, which was a very small line at the time.

 

Fast forward to today... The company now has a significant fleet of X ships with more coming. If cruisers are interested in that type of product RCG already offers it. 

 

Little reason for them to cannibalize sales from X rather than just building more X ships to service demand for those itineraries. Most brands don't attempt to be everything to everyone. Just like Carnival and Princess cater to different demos under the same parent company.

 

I guarantee you 100% that Royal will build ships to replace Vision and Radiance class ships...Celebrity is not Royals market. 

[Twenty2020]

3 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

I guarantee you 100% that Royal will build ships to replace Vision and Radiance class ships...Celebrity is not Royals market. 

 

What is Royal's market then?

[latebuyer]

I don’t know why we’re rehashing this. There has been statements from royal caribbean officials including Michael Bayley that they are introducing this new class. Are people suggesting they are lying?

[Hoopster95]

14 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

I guarantee you 100% that Royal will build ships to replace Vision and Radiance class ships...Celebrity is not Royals market. 

 

 

• Maximizing berths on ships to maximize revenue from as many cruisers as possible
• Stock holder returns
• What's the building cost of each ship vs. profits over 20-25 years capital cost depreciation?

 

The above is all that is important, nothing else.

If a building less than 100,000 gross tonnage ship with max 2000 passengers is more profitable than an Oasis or Icon Class, then I agree Royal will build them. I truly doubt it.

You may be right...I may be wrong. We'll see in 2030.

[Ourusualbeach]

3 minutes ago, Hoopster95 said:

 

 

• Maximizing berths on ships to maximize revenue from as many cruisers as possible
• Stock holder returns
• What's the building cost of each ship vs. profits over 20-25 years capital cost depreciation?

 

The above is all that is important, nothing else.

If a building less than 100,000 gross tonnage ship with max 2000 passengers is more profitable than an Oasis or Icon Class, then I agree Royal will build them. I truly doubt it.

You may be right...I may be wrong. We'll see in 2030.

When I say smaller ships it is smaller. I have never said less than 100,000 tons.  I havecskwsys said that project Discovery is slatedvto be around a VY class size at 140,000 tons

[Twenty2020]

7 minutes ago, latebuyer said:

I don’t know why we’re rehashing this. There has been statements from royal caribbean officials including Michael Bayley that they are introducing this new class. Are people suggesting they are lying?

 

No they haven't said that. They said they were in a planning phase and were considering it. But it still had a ways to go, including being approved by the board. 

[PhillyFan33579]

9 hours ago, Saab4444 said:

Think outside the Caribbean. This would mean no more Royal in e.g. Northern Europe, Eastern Med and Alaska.

Currently Quantum class ships cruise to Alaska while Voyager class ships up to Oasis class ships cruise in the Mediterranean and Europe. RCI would still have a significant presence in these areas in the future even if their fleet no longer had smaller class ships. 

[c-leg5]

4 minutes ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

Currently Quantum class ships cruise to Alaska while Voyager class ships up to Oasis class ships cruise in the Mediterranean and Europe. RCI would still have a significant presence in these areas in the future even if their fleet no longer had smaller class ships. 

They may well be “in an area” but choice of ports is undoubtedly smaller.

 

Galveston already had limited 7-day options and this is now reduced even further. This in turn reduces the attraction of B2B sailings.

[Saab4444]

13 minutes ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

Currently Quantum class ships cruise to Alaska while Voyager class ships up to Oasis class ships cruise in the Mediterranean and Europe. RCI would still have a significant presence in these areas in the future even if their fleet no longer had smaller class ships. 

But to a very limited range of ports and Voyager class is as old as Radiance class. 

[HBE4]

Page halfway down to the small(er) ship discussion.

 

https://www.thestreet.com/travel/forget-icon-of-the-seas-royal-caribbean-has-a-plan-to-go-small

 

This part caught my attention:

 

"Bayley implied during the media event that the company understood the need for smaller ships and implied that some work had begun. It's likely, but not confirmed, that any new class of ships would not be an update of Radiance or Vision class, but a white paper/blank page reimagining like Icon class.

 

That does not mean the any new ships would not borrow heavily from its predecessors. Icon of the Seas builds upon a lot of Oasis-class concepts including its neighborhoods while also introducing new innovations."

 

I think fans of older/smaller ships may be in for a disappointment when Discovery is announced not as a newer Vision-class but as a mini Icon-class. JMO.

 

Edited April 23 by HBE4

[gumshoe958]

15 minutes ago, Saab4444 said:

But to a very limited range of ports and Voyager class is as old as Radiance class. 

I think Royal are perfectly happy visiting a very limited range of ports. The market they’re now chasing doesn’t care about quirky destinations. The ship (and Coco Cay, obviously) is the destination. 
 

The issue is the home ports. They need smaller ships if they’re to continue operating in markets like Tampa and Baltimore. And I agree with @HBE4. Discovery class will be like a mini Icon, not a reinvented Radiance or Vision.

 

 

Edited April 23 by gumshoe958

[PhillyFan33579]

6 minutes ago, Saab4444 said:

But to a very limited range of ports and Voyager class is as old as Radiance class. 

I mentioned Voyager class ships because they are significantly bigger than Radiance class ships (~1.5 times bigger). I think a very limited range of ports is a bit of an exaggeration. Even now the vast majority of RCI ships sailing in Europe and the Mediterranean are Voyager class ships are larger. Ultimately I think RCI’s focus will be on how to generate the most revenue possible in the future, even if that means eliminating going to ports they currently go to. 

[gallagher123123]

54 minutes ago, latebuyer said:

I don’t know why we’re rehashing this. There has been statements from royal caribbean officials including Michael Bayley that they are introducing this new class. Are people suggesting they are lying?

I definitely don't think they're lying necessarily. However, I do see how some might be concerned about Project Discovery happening. I think it's fair to say that many of us were surprised by the announcement of a seventh Oasis-class ship for 2028, for example. At the same time, would the captains be talking so openly about it during Captains Corner events if it really weren't going to happen? I think not. It also seems that the captains are revealing a lot of details, which makes me wonder if an announcement is imminent within the next few months. It's not just one captain now; it seems that several are talking about it. That personally gives me hope.
I'm particularly interested in Discovery because Royal typically deploys the Radiance-class ships to Boston each fall, and I would love to see something newer come here. I'm definitely hopeful."

[Saab4444]

7 minutes ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

I mentioned Voyager class ships because they are significantly bigger than Radiance class ships (~1.5 times bigger). I think a very limited range of ports is a bit of an exaggeration. Even now the vast majority of RCI ships sailing in Europe and the Mediterranean are Voyager class ships are larger. Ultimately I think RCI’s focus will be on how to generate the most revenue possible in the future, even if that means eliminating going to ports they currently go to. 

Because they already withdraw many smaller ships from Europe and reduced varity of itineraries significantly. For us Royal is not attractive in Europe anymore and we are choosing other lines.

[gumshoe958]

1 hour ago, latebuyer said:

I don’t know why we’re rehashing this. There has been statements from royal caribbean officials including Michael Bayley that they are introducing this new class. Are people suggesting they are lying?

I absolutely think it will happen.

 

But will these new smaller ships just be new versions of Radiance & Vision which are popular with many on CC because they feel more like ‘classic’ ships without all the bells & whistles of Oasis & Icon?

 

No, they absolutely will not. 

[PhillyFan33579]

1 hour ago, latebuyer said:

I don’t know why we’re rehashing this. There has been statements from royal caribbean officials including Michael Bayley that they are introducing this new class. Are people suggesting they are lying?

When has RCI officially stated they are building a new smaller class ship? If you have knowledge of a statement or video from Michael Bayley, or anyone else at RCI, specifically stating RCI is building a new smaller class ship, please post a link to it here. 

[HBE4]

55 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

When I say smaller ships it is smaller. I have never said less than 100,000 tons.  I havecskwsys said that project Discovery is slatedvto be around a VY class size at 140,000 tons

 

I've read both sizes - Radiance and Voyager -  mentioned in various articles. Royal's design team must be working overtime trying to figure out how to squeeze the modern amenities that Royal is known for into a smaller package. I would expect some version of a Royal Promenade, dozen(s) of eating & drinking establishments, several entertainment venues, solarium, etc.  

 

It seems like a lot of pack into an under-100,000 ton ship. 

 

I can't post the link but on Matts blog there is a quote (bold & underlined is mine):

 

"Royal Caribbean's Senior Vice President and Chief Product Innovation Officer Jay Schneider alluded to the fact this new ship would be relatively smaller, "I'm careful to say small, but a less than large size class of ship."

[HBE4]

36 minutes ago, gumshoe958 said:

I absolutely think it will happen.

 

But will these new smaller ships just be new versions of Radiance & Vision which are popular with many on CC because they feel more like ‘classic’ ships without all the bells & whistles of Oasis & Icon?

 

No, they absolutely will not. 

 

Agreed. I think the big challenge would be how to fit the must-have Royal amenities in a smaller package. I can almost imagine the discussion in the product design team meetings. Team leader hold up a list with 7 items:  "okay, we can only pick 4 of the following 7 items. What should they be?"

 

"Water Slides, Bumper Cars, Flow Riders, Central Park, Ice Skating Rink, Aqua Theater, Royal Promenade".

 

And Go! 🙂

Edited April 23 by HBE4

[SUgwoz]

28 minutes ago, gumshoe958 said:

I absolutely think it will happen.

 

But will these new smaller ships just be new versions of Radiance & Vision which are popular with many on CC because they feel more like ‘classic’ ships without all the bells & whistles of Oasis & Icon?

 

No, they absolutely will not. 

Agreed, I believe Royal will focus on having a consistent experience on their ships.  While steering those that want more classic ships to Celebrity.