Is United the new Southwest Airlines ?

[Dolebludger]

As we live in Durango CO, we are limited to United through Denver and American through DFW or Phoenix — or one of their code share airlines for destinations beyond. The last three times we, or family members, have gone United through Denver in the past six months, there have been serious problems. In two of these scheduled flights, there were unnecessary flight cancelations that caused an expensive overnight stay. In one of these situations, United could not get us to our destination for two more days! So we opted to fly back to Durango, and have our air charge refunded. And United refused our claim for the one night if hotel charges. In another incident, the United flight from Bozeman MT was late, causing a missed flight from Denver to Durango, with no flight availability later, thus another forced over night. We are fighting with United over this now. In the third incident, we were prevented from checking in at Vancouver as the only person handling check in’s was trying to take care of United flight cancelation rebooking in a 1/4 mile long line outside the airport. This almost made us to miss our non-cancelled flight, except that my wife demanded immediate attention, while video recording the whole mess. All fights, except the  flight from Bozeman, were cruise related. And all were booked business/first class. Avoid United until it gets its act together.

[FlyerTalker]

52 minutes ago, Dolebludger said:

In two of these scheduled flights, there were unnecessary flight cancelations that caused an expensive overnight stay.

 

And just how were they "unnecessary"? Are you privy to the airline's internal operation records?  And I bet you chose to stay at the Westin.

 

53 minutes ago, Dolebludger said:

(Various stories about cancelled flights)

 

Do you actually know what UA's responsibility is when there are cancellations?  And it also seems that some of your issues are missed connections.  Anyone booking tight connects with no real backup plan?

 

56 minutes ago, Dolebludger said:

 Avoid United until it gets its act together.

 

Enjoy AA

 

 

 

[Dolebludger]

Well, no, I am denied the opportunity to inspect United’s records, unless I file a suit against them, and get past their rather secret terms and conditions..I know you are a defender of airlines and their poor service.  But all I know is that I paid for business/first transportation  from point A to point B and it was not delivered. Twice!  And, no we don’t book flights with tight connections. But I would ask, why would United’s web site allow such a booking — given their poor on time record?, In any event, we do not. And I have no love for AA either. But at least if I have a “forced overnight” in the Dallas area, I have family there to house us. And when we had cancelled flights in Denver, we immediately booked hotel in the Westin there. Want to know why?  There was a 1/2 mile line at “gate 38” that handled rebooking or any other compensation and we knew we were not getting out of there that evening.  Indeed, according to United via phone , we were not getting to our Boston destination for two days or more. Is this first class service? I wish it weren’t. We had trip insurance, and recovered the cost of the cruise we missed because United messed up. And sorry airline service is why travel insurance us so expensive now. Defend airlines all you want. And I will condemn them all,I want. As far as I am concerned, our airlines should be nationalized, as they are in many other countries. That may not be a great solution, but there is no way it could be worse.

. 

 

[Dolebludger]

Oh yeah, what is the back-up plan we should have when booking a flight with only one  two hour change on United?  And who pays if this back-up plan has to be used? It is difficult to suggest a “back up plan” under the conditions mandated by United. If you have one, please state it here.

[Dolebludger]

Well, it has been a few hours ago, and no response from FlyerTalker. Well, that’s cool. it will take a rather long time to invent a response to what I have posted about United air lines. A better solution to resolve our problems with their bad service might be for Federal action to cancel any of their terms and conditions that prohibit anybody that purchases ticket from suing them in the jurisdiction where the purchaser resides. And this should apply to AA and all airlines too!  I recall when we were returning from a cruise ending in Tahiti and our last flight leg was from Dallas. The AA plane was just sitting on the  pad, and it was getting some time after scheduled boarding. I went to the desk and asked about the problem. The answer was “we can’t find the pilot”. I said that I was a captain in USAF and I’d fly the plane. They asked if I were a pilot, and I said “no, but I’m a fast learner”. Somehow, the real pilot showed up, and home we went.  The whole basis of my posts here is that our airlines are really “public utilities” and should be regulated as such. I have a grandson who is a football player for Harvard. I would like to fly to Boston  next month to see him play. But can I get there? 

[6rugrats]

10 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

As we live in Durango CO, we are limited to United through Denver and American through DFW or Phoenix — or one of their code share airlines for destinations beyond. The last three times we, or family members, have gone United through Denver in the past six months, there have been serious problems. In two of these scheduled flights, there were unnecessary flight cancelations that caused an expensive overnight stay.

 

As you do not provide the flight numbers or dates, there is no way anyone can comment about "unnecessary flight cancelations."  I guarantee airlines do not cancel flights just for fun or to inconvenience passengers.  You have have absolutely no idea of the amount of planning that goes into flights and how seriously cancelations and delays are taken.  If you were not given hotel accomodations, and by your post it appears you were not, these delays appear to be beyond UA's control.  There have been many weather or ATC cancelations this year.  No airline controls this.

 

In one of these situations, United could not get us to our destination for two more days!

 

Yes, UA does not remove already booked passengers from flights.  And, if there is no availability, they can't get you on a flight with no seat.  This is no different from any other airline.

 

So we opted to fly back to Durango, and have our air charge refunded. And United refused our claim for the one night if hotel charges.

  

A refund is always your option if a flight is canceled.  Again, if the cancelation is for a reason beyond an airline's control, you are not due reimbursement for any incidental charges you incured, such as meals and hotels.

 

In another incident, the United flight from Bozeman MT was late, causing a missed flight from Denver to Durango, with no flight availability later, thus another forced over night. We are fighting with United over this now.  

 

Not sure what you are fighting about.  Again, if they didn't reimburse or offer a hotel, the reason for the delay is not within the airline's control.  

 

n the third incident, we were prevented from checking in at Vancouver as the only person handling check in’s was trying to take care of United flight cancelation rebooking in a 1/4 mile long line outside the airport.

 

That would be approximately 1,320 people.  Was the line really that long, or is this just more hyperbole?  I feel sorry for the agent, who probably took plenty of abuse and was a contracted employee; not really working for UA directly.  No one should waste time standing in line for cancelations; they should rebook online on UA's webpage, on the UA app or using Agent on Demand.  

 

This almost made us to miss our non-cancelled flight, except that my wife demanded immediate attention, while video recording the whole mess.

 

You know you can check in online, don't you?  How exactly did she "demand immediate attention?"  Honestly.  Just too much.  DYKWIM?

 

All fights, except the  flight from Bozeman, were cruise related.

 

Does this have some type of relevance to the cancelations/delays?

 

And all were booked business/first class. Avoid United until it gets its act together.

 

Sounds like this may work better for you.  Please come back and post the name of the airline that has no delays, cancelations and no lines.  I want to fly them.  This is not a defense of any airline, it's just the facts.  Most people are not sitting on their computers 24/7 to respond to posts.  Ignore duplicates below, not sure what happened.

 

 

10 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

 

 

 

Y

10 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

 

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

I

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by 6rugrats

[FlyerTalker]

9 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

I know you are a defender of airlines and their poor service.  But all I know is that I paid for business/first transportation  from point A to point B and it was not delivered. Twice!

 

Not a defender of anything.  Just a realist who understands the operation of airlines.  As for not delivered, it was YOU who chose to go back to Durango.  And in the other cases, weren't you still getting to your destination.  Oh, I get it...it was not delivered in the way that YOU wanted it to be.

 

 

9 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

And when we had cancelled flights in Denver, we immediately booked hotel in the Westin there. Want to know why?  There was a 1/2 mile line at “gate 38” that handled rebooking or any other compensation and we knew we were not getting out of there that evening. 

 

There are almost 30 hotels near the airport.  YOU chose the most expensive one.  So don't blame someone else for the cost.

 

 

9 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

As far as I am concerned, our airlines should be nationalized, as they are in many other countries. That may not be a great solution, but there is no way it could be worse.

 

 

Apparently you know nothing about Pakistan International.  Or Air India.  Or dozens of other government run airlines that are poster boys for corrupt, inefficient, and terrible operations.

 

Tell you what....why don't you share with us those great government run airlines.  C'mon, let's have the examples.  Aside from the MEA trio of Emirates, Etihad and Qatar (which have shoveled billions into their airline operations, often for PR purposes, and are outliers for many reasons), give me those examples.

 

 

[FlyerTalker]

8 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

Oh yeah, what is the back-up plan we should have when booking a flight with only one  two hour change on United?  And who pays if this back-up plan has to be used? It is difficult to suggest a “back up plan” under the conditions mandated by United. If you have one, please state it here.

 

If I want to get from DEN to BOS, I don't just look at non-stop.  Think of going through Chicago, or New York, or other options.  Worse comes to worse, fly to NYC and take the train. 

 

 

[FlyerTalker]

7 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

Well, it has been a few hours ago, and no response from FlyerTalker. Well, that’s cool. it will take a rather long time to invent a response to what I have posted about United air lines.

 

Actually, some of us have better things to do that just sit at a computer and wait for posts to comment on.  And as for a response, 6Rugrats has done a fine job of explaining just where you are, let's say, misinformed.

 

7 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

A better solution to resolve our problems with their bad service might be for Federal action to cancel any of their terms and conditions that prohibit anybody that purchases ticket from suing them in the jurisdiction where the purchaser resides. And this should apply to AA and all airlines too!

 

I guess you have not considered the ruling of the US Supreme Court in 2013 in Northwest Inc v Ginsberg.  Interesting how you want to federalize the operation of the airlines while otherwise arguing for the rights to sue in state and local courts.

 

And just think...if the government took over the airlines, you would get the same service as the post office, the DMV and the IRS, all rolled into one.

 

7 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

The whole basis of my posts here is that our airlines are really “public utilities” and should be regulated as such.

 

They once were regulated heavily, though not as "public utilities".  Since the deregulation under the Carter administration, air travel has become much more affordable to the public and flight service has massively expanded.  Please let us know just how that new regulation would actually help the public as a whole, not just for YOU.  Because public policy is not just about how it serves one couple in Durango.

 

 

 

 

[megr1125]

2 hours ago, 6rugrats said:

 

 

 

Y

 

 

I give you credit for deciphering the giant, run on paragraph that made my eyes hurt, so thanks.

 

Me?  I'll stick with United.

[Zach1213]

16 hours ago, Dolebludger said:

I know you are a defender of airlines and their poor service.  

 

The people who post on here frequently (and have for years) are not "defenders of airlines...", but rather people who know airlines...know how they operate better than most, have experience flying them more than most, etc. etc. There's no perk to "defending" airlines...it's not like United or American are on here giving rewards to those who defend them. Rather, these people have a LOT of experience flying for years and decades, all over the world, and generally know what they're talking about and have experienced just about everything. They're here to educate and share information and experiences, even if they aren't always what the OP wants to hear. 

[waterbug123]

If you're going to avoid United, I'll just say good luck.  It's a sh*t show over at Delta right now, and most frequent fliers I know (I participate in multiple frequent flyer forums) consider American as a distant 3rd behind United and Delta as far as service etc..  After Delta, my husband and I fly Southwest and Jet Blue the most and this past year probably 75% of our flights on those two have either been delayed 2+ hours or cancelled.  After that, you're pretty much limited to the true low cost carriers (Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant) and there's no way I'd trust them to get me to a cruise.  Your best bet is probably Alaska, but of course if you live on east of the Mississippi that's not a very viable option.

[SelectSys]

On 9/26/2023 at 12:33 AM, Dolebludger said:

The whole basis of my posts here is that our airlines are really “public utilities” and should be regulated as such. I have a grandson

Are you kidding me?  Do you really want the airlines regulated like the power or water company?  That would destroy innovation, choice and only serve to raise prices.

 

Since you have grandkids, I would think you remember the era the of federally controlled airlines.  This stifled competition and innovation.  Remember that Southwest started as a Texas only airline if memory serves me correctly as they really couldn't fly as they wanted to outside the state.

 

BTW - the notion of the "public utility" really only is relevant if a natural monopoly exists for providing a product or service.  The airline business doesn't really qualify for this type of regulation.  Air Traffic Control is an example of a "natural monopoly" as it would be harmful and dangerous to have competing ATCs covering the same airspace.

[Dolebludger]

Well, no, I am denied the opportunity to inspect United’s records, unless I file a suit against them, and get past their rather secret terms and conditions..I know you are a defender of airlines and their poor service.  But all I know is that I paid for business/first transportation  from point A to point B and it was not delivered. Twice!  And, no we don’t book flights with tight connections. But I would ask, why would United’s web site allow such a booking — given their poor on time record?, In any event, we do not. And I have no love for AA either. But at least if I have a “forced overnight” in the Dallas area, I have family there to house us. And when we had cancelled flights in Denver, we immediately booked hotel in the Westin there. Want to know why?  There was a 1/2 mile line at “gate 38” that handled rebooking or any other compensation and we knew we were not getting out of there that evening.  Indeed, according to United via phone , we were not getting to our Boston destination for two days or more. Is this first class service? I wish it weren’t. We had trip insurance, and recovered the cost of the cruise we missed because United messed up. And sorry airline service is why travel insurance us so expensive now. Defend airlines all you want. And I will condemn them all,I want. As far as I am concerned, our airlines should be nationalized, as they are in many other countries. That may not be a great solution, but there is no way it could be worse.

. 

 

[FlyerTalker]

Repeating the same screed.

 

 

[Dolebludger]

Well, heck, if people here think our treatment in Denver by United last April is something that should be allowed, without regulatory recourse, then I give up, and bye! 

[6rugrats]

What treatment in DEN?  Your flight was canceled, apparently for a reason beyond the airline’s control because they wouldn’t pay for a hotel.  There were no seats available for two days.  O.k., what regulatory recourse improves the weather?  I think you might prefer flying private.

[FlyerTalker]

21 minutes ago, Dolebludger said:

Well, heck, if people here think our treatment in Denver by United last April is something that should be allowed, without regulatory recourse, then I give up, and bye! 

 

This is an example of people not delving deep into the subject.  And looking at the terrible consequences of government interference.  Case in point - the govt established heavy penalties for "tarmac delays".  What was the result?  Guess what....it did reduce delays.  By replacing them with full bore cancellations.  The regs didn't make the flights go out any faster, but it did incentivize airlines to cancel flights rather than just delay them and pay the resultant penalties.  Which meant that the regs actually inconvenienced more people AFTER they were put into place.  But it sounded good to politicians and the public that never went beyond the headlines.

 

You never say what those "regulatory recourses" might be - you just have a belief that if the government waves a magic wand, all the issues of operating airlines systems will just vanish in a cloud of pixie dust.  C'mon - dish with the specifics of what you want.  So we can then show where they fail the sniff test.

 

I'll concur with 6rug -- perhaps you should put this phone number on your speed dial:  877-356-5823  That's the number for NetJets.

 

 

[waterbug123]

On 9/27/2023 at 7:04 PM, Dolebludger said:

 As far as I am concerned, our airlines should be nationalized, as they are in many other countries. That may not be a great solution, but there is no way it could be worse.

. 

 

Really?  Look at how screwed up most federal agencies are.  You don't hear anyone singing the praises of how efficient the SSA is, or the VA, or the USPS, or even Congress for that matter.  The list goes on and on.  You really want one national airline run by the federal government?  No thanks.

[CruiserBruce]

Just a rant. Rants don't need to have facts in them...just lots of "they could, they should just", etc,  regardless if its possible, practical or a good idea.

[FlyerTalker]

34 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Just a rant. Rants don't need to have facts in them...just lots of "they could, they should just", etc,  regardless if its possible, practical or a good idea.

 

And don't forget the "if you don't agree with me, then I'm not going to discuss this" part.

 

 

[jsglow]

I actually like Southwest. 😁

[SelectSys]

37 minutes ago, jsglow said:

I actually like Southwest

I am not sure if you are being facetious or stating your true opinion.  However, I like Southwest although I don't understand why they are still considered "low cost" by some these days.

[FlyerTalker]

28 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

I am not sure if you are being facetious or stating your true opinion.  However, I like Southwest although I don't understand why they are still considered "low cost" by some these days.

 

Over the last thirty plus years, Southwest has managed to create an image of being THE low-price carrier.  That their pricing is ALWAYS the lowest, so folks just go to Southwest for their tickets.

 

At one point, that was quite true.  But that point ended decades ago.  Yet the image continues.

 

And the term "low-cost" within the industry is a reference to the airline's operating costs, not the prices they charge to the customer.

 

 

[SelectSys]

3 hours ago, FlyerTalker said:

nd the term "low-cost" within the industry is a reference to the airline's operating costs

That makes sense - "low cost" isn't the same as "low price."  Even on a common measure of operating cost basis, this chart from 2018 (the latest comparison I could easily find) suggests WN isn't even really a low cost leader anymore.

 

U.S. airlines: domestic cost per available seat mile 2018 | Statista

Edited September 30, 2023 by SelectSys