Child drowns on Independence

[chengkp75]

Agreed, however it must be reasonable and legitimate to suggest that Lifeguards should be on duty during the day? There's a lot happening on a pool deck and parents / others can be distracted whereas specifically trained personnel would be likely to be attentive.

 

Unfortunately, if a crewmember were permanently stationed at the pool, do you really believe that, despite lifeguard training, that they would not be continually distracted by the mobs of passengers asking questions, demanding more lounge chairs, and everything else they pester the passing crew with?

 

Another consideration is where are the lifeguards certified? Most likely in the flag state of the ship, but do the Bahamas, Panama, or Malta certify or license lifeguards? If the lifeguards are not certified, what do the liability laws of the flag states say about the cruise lines' liability? One more legal snarl caused by the use of flags of convenience.

[cello56]

First I want to say that my thoughts and prayers go out to this wee boy and his family. I cannot imagine their pain, and sincerely hope that he makes a full recovery.

 

Now to the topic of RCI having lifeguards at the pools. Please note that I used the PLURAL. We are not talking about one lifeguard, we are talking about needing at least five or more at all times. You cannot have one pool guarded and the next one not. Independance class ships have the sports pool, the main pool, the solarium pool, the H2O zone and the circular pool in the kids area. So that is five lifeguards already. But what about the whirlpools? If you are providing guards for one water area, you need to provide them for all. So now we add two of the huge cantilevered whirlpools that hang over the sides, plus another three by the pool areas.

 

Can you see the logistical nightmare this would be? And who is going to pay for all these extra personal? These are not going to be crew from their regular sources. If you are providing lifeguards, then they have to be certified proper lifeguards. They are not going to work for low wages, so this is going to be a huge additional cost. Guess who is going to have to pay for all these expenses? Us the passengers. We would see our cruise fare increase for this.

 

Then there is the issue of what hours are the pools going to be open? How do they close them? Will the guests who now enjoy an early morning swim lose out? Or will it be the guests who love a midnight swim? There is no way to have the pools open and with lifeguards 24/7. So now we add in the cost of having crew rope off each and every water source every time they close or open. Another cost to pass on to the passenger.

 

Obviously having all the water sources with lifeguards 24/7 is not a practical solution. So we have to rely on parents/grandparents doing the right thing, and watching their children like hawks all the time. That is their job, their duty. There is not one iota of blame to be placed on this poor six year old who lies in the hospital right now. All he could possibly have done was be six, and six year olds are not known for their wise judgement. They depend on the adults in their lives to keep them safe.

 

One thing that we can all do is watch out for our fellow passengers. If you are in the pool and see a weak swimmer - child or adult - keep an eye for them. I can't tell you how many times I have watched out for a child who did not seem to have an adult with them. It is not that child's fault that no one was either in the pool with them or at least sitting on the side with eyes on them. Of course it is not my responsibility, but we are all in this together in life, so why not lend a pair of 'helping eyes' when you have the chance.

 

One last thing. IF the company provided lifeguards, how many parents would then use the pool as a babysitter so they can go off and do adult stuff? This could be a huge problem in itself. Imagine the number of children that each lifeguard could be trying to control? And you think that the pools are crowded now?

 

I will continue to hope and pray that this young boy recovers. I will also hope and pray that everyone who has heard of the is tragedy, will be just a little bit more careful the next time they are responsible for a child near a body of water.

[Paulette3028]

Poor thing!

 

I read an interesting article about why it's so easy for people to drown in plain sight of others a while back. Good information for everyone.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/family/2013/06/rescuing_drowning_children_how_to_know_when_someone_is_in_trouble_in_the.html

 

Wonderful article. I have been an avid swimmer since I was a toddler, yes a toddler...and even now over 60 years old, I am an incredible swimmer. Whenever I am in the water (pool or ocean/lake), it amazes me how many people are unaware of what is going on around them....I have more than once asked a youngster if they were alright in the water, when seeing some of the things identified in the article....as it says, if they can answer you....likely they are fine, perhaps not a good swimmer and in an area they should not be in....but that is another issue.

 

I am not acting as the 'lifeguard' just a concerned fellow vacationer....who would hope that if someone saw me in a potentially dangerous situation would offer a helping hand.

[bouhunter]

So... stop judging... stop blaming...

 

But that's what's done here........

 

Unfortunately it's what's to be expected when a story like this is posted here:rolleyes:

[yarlenna]

First I want to say that my thoughts and prayers go out to this wee boy and his family. I cannot imagine their pain, and sincerely hope that he makes a full recovery.

 

Now to the topic of RCI having lifeguards at the pools. Please note that I used the PLURAL. We are not talking about one lifeguard, we are talking about needing at least five or more at all times. You cannot have one pool guarded and the next one not. Independance class ships have the sports pool, the main pool, the solarium pool, the H2O zone and the circular pool in the kids area. So that is five lifeguards already. But what about the whirlpools? If you are providing guards for one water area, you need to provide them for all. So now we add two of the huge cantilevered whirlpools that hang over the sides, plus another three by the pool areas.

 

Can you see the logistical nightmare this would be? And who is going to pay for all these extra personal? These are not going to be crew from their regular sources. If you are providing lifeguards, then they have to be certified proper lifeguards. They are not going to work for low wages, so this is going to be a huge additional cost. Guess who is going to have to pay for all these expenses? Us the passengers. We would see our cruise fare increase for this.

 

Then there is the issue of what hours are the pools going to be open? How do they close them? Will the guests who now enjoy an early morning swim lose out? Or will it be the guests who love a midnight swim? There is no way to have the pools open and with lifeguards 24/7. So now we add in the cost of having crew rope off each and every water source every time they close or open. Another cost to pass on to the passenger.

 

Obviously having all the water sources with lifeguards 24/7 is not a practical solution. So we have to rely on parents/grandparents doing the right thing, and watching their children like hawks all the time. That is their job, their duty. There is not one iota of blame to be placed on this poor six year old who lies in the hospital right now. All he could possibly have done was be six, and six year olds are not known for their wise judgement. They depend on the adults in their lives to keep them safe.

 

One thing that we can all do is watch out for our fellow passengers. If you are in the pool and see a weak swimmer - child or adult - keep an eye for them. I can't tell you how many times I have watched out for a child who did not seem to have an adult with them. It is not that child's fault that no one was either in the pool with them or at least sitting on the side with eyes on them. Of course it is not my responsibility, but we are all in this together in life, so why not lend a pair of 'helping eyes' when you have the chance.

 

One last thing. IF the company provided lifeguards, how many parents would then use the pool as a babysitter so they can go off and do adult stuff? This could be a huge problem in itself. Imagine the number of children that each lifeguard could be trying to control? And you think that the pools are crowded now?

 

I will continue to hope and pray that this young boy recovers. I will also hope and pray that everyone who has heard of the is tragedy, will be just a little bit more careful the next time they are responsible for a child near a body of water.

 

Well said

[NorbertsNiece]

cello56 : you put into words that with which I was struggling. Thank you.

[aloha43]

I believe this was in the parents court.

 

Six years old in the big pool without someone with him?

 

I was IN the pool with them at that age. Period.

 

The comment earlier regarding the lifeguards and the fact that parents would use them as babysitters would only make matters worse.

 

I am in property management and the residents are always demanding a playground. We have an expansive lawn area for the kids to play on. One next to a road with speeders going by all the time. They don't want to let their children play there because they don't want to have to be there with them to make sure they stay off the road. They want a fenced in play area where they can put them in and close the gate.....using the fenced in area as a babysitter because they are too lazy to stay and watch them. The same would happen with lifeguards.....they would depend on the lifeguards to watch them.

 

I'm not blaming the parents for what happened.....IMO I just can't understand why they weren't in there with them at that age......

 

I hope this poor little boy pulls through. Sad, very sad.

[drb116]

Unfortunately, if a crewmember were permanently stationed at the pool, do you really believe that, despite lifeguard training, that they would not be continually distracted by the mobs of passengers asking questions, demanding more lounge chairs, and everything else they pester the passing crew with?

 

It is not the lifeguard's job to answer questions. They stand buy the pool clearly marked as lifeguards, and people leave them alone.

 

Disney has been using lifeguards for nearly a year now and every time I am on a Disney cruise, people leave them alone and they do their job.

 

Cruise line pools can get ridiculously crowded and it seems like there are several drowning or near drownings every year. It is ridiculous that Carnival, Norwegian, and RCCL have not hired lifeguards for the peak pool times.

[Big_G]

Tragic. Prayers that he pulls through. 'Nuff said. :(

[NorbertsNiece]

It is not the lifeguard's job to answer questions. They stand buy the pool clearly marked as lifeguards, and people leave them alone.

 

Disney has been using lifeguards for nearly a year now and every time I am on a Disney cruise, people leave them alone and they do their job.

 

Cruise line pools can get ridiculously crowded and it seems like there are several drowning or near drownings every year. It is ridiculous that Carnival, Norwegian, and RCCL have not hired lifeguards for the peak pool times.

 

A 4 year child remains brain damaged after he nearly drowned on a Disney cruise ship, the Fantasy, in March of last year. Maybe that was a lesson learnt.

[chengkp75]

It is not the lifeguard's job to answer questions. They stand buy the pool clearly marked as lifeguards, and people leave them alone.

 

Disney has been using lifeguards for nearly a year now and every time I am on a Disney cruise, people leave them alone and they do their job.

 

Cruise line pools can get ridiculously crowded and it seems like there are several drowning or near drownings every year. It is ridiculous that Carnival, Norwegian, and RCCL have not hired lifeguards for the peak pool times.

 

I know that it is not a lifeguards job to answer questions. My sons were lifeguards for years. I just doubt that people will "leave them alone" given the attitude of many cruisers. I believe that the other cruise lines are waiting to see what liability lawsuits arise out of Disney's hiring of lifeguards. Are the lifeguards on duty all day? Do they have multiple guards for the multiple pools? Do they relieve the lifeguards regularly during the day?

 

Another factor is that Disney is incorporated in the US, while the other lines are incorporated overseas, so their liability to US laws may be different.

[orville99]

 

Another factor is that Disney is incorporated in the US, while the other lines are incorporated overseas, so their liability to US laws may be different.

 

I believe Disney Cruise Lines, Ltd. is a wholly-owned British subsidiary of Disney, and its ships fly Bahamian flags, so U.S. laws probably don't apply.

[Ocean Boy]

I know that it is not a lifeguards job to answer questions. My sons were lifeguards for years. I just doubt that people will "leave them alone" given the attitude of many cruisers. I believe that the other cruise lines are waiting to see what liability lawsuits arise out of Disney's hiring of lifeguards. Are the lifeguards on duty all day? Do they have multiple guards for the multiple pools? Do they relieve the lifeguards regularly during the day?

 

Another factor is that Disney is incorporated in the US, while the other lines are incorporated overseas, so their liability to US laws may be different.

 

I also wonder if they will enforce pool capacity regulations. Typically there is a maximum number of people allowed into pools per guard present. It would be interesting to see what the passenger response is when someone is told they can't get in the pool because capacity has been reached especially when that person feels that there is plenty of room for him/her to get in. RCI had better put some extra people on duty down at the guest relations desk.

[chengkp75]

I believe Disney Cruise Lines, Ltd. is a wholly-owned British subsidiary of Disney, and its ships fly Bahamian flags, so U.S. laws probably don't apply.

 

While the ships are not US flag, and the cruise line is not a US corporation, being a wholly owned subsidiary opens the US registered parent to legal action by US laws, IMHO. (I'm not a lawyer, and I haven't stayed in a Holiday Inn Express lately).

[chengkp75]

I also wonder if they will enforce pool capacity regulations. Typically there is a maximum number of people allowed into pools per guard present. It would be interesting to see what the passenger response is when someone is told they can't get in the pool because capacity has been reached especially when that person feels that there is plenty of room for him/her to get in. RCI had better put some extra people on duty down at the guest relations desk.

 

Again, that is a US regulation about lifeguards versus capacity, I think. However, the USPH (which Disney must follow on cruises from the US), states pool capacity in persons per cubic meter of volume and in terms of turn-over rate of water for the pumping/filtration system. This is almost universally ignored by all lines. And the person complaining about not being allowed in the pool would be arguing with the lifeguard.

[ramanda]

How sad and preventable. I have two children who are now 11 and 13 and even now i keep my eye on them at all times around the water and especially around crowds and water. At six years old, you cannot look away even for a second, especially if there are a lot of people around like a crowded beach or pool. It's too easy to lose sight of them. And i agree with the other posters who said at six years old you should be IN the pool with them. I see too many people at the beach who have their faces buried in their iphones or ipads or whatever and their kids are who knows where. Then we hear the inevitable announcements from the lifeguard that they have found a little girl or boy who is lost and would their parents come get them. It isn't right.

Edited May 28, 2014 by ramanda

[Adayatatime]

How sad and preventable. I have two children who are now 11 and 13 and even now i keep my eye on them at all times around the water and especially around crowds and water. At six years old, you cannot look away even for a second, especially if there are a lot of people around like a crowded beach or pool. It's too easy to lose sight of them. And i agree with the other posters who said at six years old you should be IN the pool with them. I see too many people at the beach who have their faces buried in their iphones or ipads or whatever and their kids are who knows where. Then we hear the inevitable announcements from the lifeguard that they have found a little girl or boy who is lost and would their parents come get them. It isn't right.

 

The majority of parents are good. Sometimes really bad things happen. We are not the judges. None of us as parents do everything 100% right. I feel for the whole family. This type of thing rarely happens. Even if you have your eye on them, as someone else said, it takes 30 seconds.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Adayatatime

[time4u2go]

For those that are saying that there should be lifeguards, do you also believe that all hotels with pools should have lifeguards? If not, why the difference?

[Aquahound]

Tragic. Prayers that he pulls through. 'Nuff said. :(

 

Agreed.

[CI66774]

I don't know any of the facts in this case - but - sometimes horrible accidents just happen. I know about this. Sometimes we feel the need to blame - maybe that makes us feel better knowing someone or something is responsible. Sometimes though, you're in the wrong place at the wrong time or circumstances converge and create a chain reaction. Let's not blame the parents (or anyone) right now. I'm sure they're going through hell as it is.

[Emperor9]

there is no excuse when its a child that small you are in the pool with them period. no point in covering up mistakes, lets learn from them TC

Edited May 28, 2014 by Emperor9

[antsnanny]

On Radiance last month I reported 2 little ones in the kids pool alone with no adults or anyone!! I could see around? :eek: We were just walking by.......

 

 

Well, good for you. Whether this was a case of parents not watching or parents who lost sight of their kids for a brief moment, you may have saved lives by doing that. More of us should do this!

[Irene7]

Of course, the article didn't say anything about the parents blaming strangers nor the cruise line.

 

It's also possible there was a miscommunication on who was watching the 6yo (mom?, dad?, grandparents?, older sibling?)

 

I'm guessing it's easy to jump to conclusions because it makes us seem like "it can't happen to us/we're better parents".

 

I hope the child survives and the responsible parties are able to forgive (but not forget).

 

True we don't know the who story, but the article here on cc said a passenger on the sailing said that the captain announced that other children sounded the alarm, so it seems no adults where watching him. I pray the boy pulls through.

[xpcdoojk]

I'm onboard. The code Alpha was to the "main pool" not the kids pool were the medical team did a great job. Captain came on about a hour after to say they had requested coastguard to collect.

 

Morbid watchers flooded to the upper decks to see the helicopters ( there was two and several landing / attempts. Then about an hour and a half later we started again. Said the child and two relatives airlifted.

 

Currently 4300 pax onboard and as school holidays over 1000 kids!

 

Since, helicopters almost never land on cruise ships, I am not sure watching such an rare event would be considered to be morbid by most people. :rolleyes:

 

YMMV

 

jc

[TC1957]

there is no excuse when its a child that small you are in the pool with them period. no point in covering up mistakes, lets learn from them TC

 

My point is that you do not know if the parents were in the pool or not. My guess is they were not but it is only that...a guess. They may have also been tending to more than one child. We do not know how many children the parents had with them. One parent may have been with two kids (say in the WJ eating lunch...it was early afternoon) and the other with two kids in the pool.

 

Believe it or not, when you are responsible for more than one child at a time you do not magically create a clone of yourself. It is sometimes impossible to watch every child for every second unless you tie them together with a very short piece of rope.