Escape listed last night 03/03/19

[Bobbyh1265]

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2019/03/articles/uncategorized/norwegian-escape-rocked-by-high-winds/?fbclid=IwAR36yIPJaiZu_l-lOvUQtNzmYXs83yGiOQ-NyhHA9k7qGEJskYim3E33a_M

[graphicguy]

To repeat....I’m on the ship now.  Reiterating....The Captain said there was an unexpected violent gust of wind that caused the listing.  I’ve heard it was 100 knots and I’ve heard it was 100 MPH.  Either way, it was strong enough to cause the ship to list enough to cause anything not tied down to go flying.

 

The wind was active from midnight until just before 1:00 a.m.  

 

The Captain broadcast all over the ship, including the cabins keeping everyone informed as to what was happening, as did the Cruise Director!!  

 

After the “all clear” was given, I ventured out to see what happened.  Crew were everywhere, helping where they could.  We were called in our cabins, asking if there were injuries.  Originally, I heard there were none.  Obviously there were.  Those I spoke to who had injuries, were asked if they needed help to get to the infirmary..

 

Never lost power or lights.  I was able to turn on the night lights on either side of the bed, and then the cabin lights.  I lost some balcony furniture.

 

I picked up what I could find on the floor.  My steward was cleaning up outside our cabin hallways around 2-2:30a.m.  Around 7:00 a.m., my steward was at my door, asking me if I needed anything immediately (I couldn’t find my phone, and he found it under the balcony curtains, where I did not look).

 

 Common sense should tell you to pick up anything on the floor you would trip over vs waiting 3 hours for someone to do it for you, while they’re busy (and probably pulling an all-nighter cleaning common areas.

 

I felt the Captain did the right thing by not turning back into the storm to sail another 7 hours back to NY.  The injuries, from what I’ve heard were minor.  Obviously I haven’t talked to every passenger, though!

 

In short, I felt the crew went above and beyond.  If you needed medical attention, you could get it.  As far as cleaning the room, I had new balcony furniture and a spic and span room by the time I came back from breakfast around 10:00 a.m.  

 

Saw a ship (maybe 2, as they were in the distance) this a.m. who must have sailed through the same violent winds we did.  So, we were apparently not alone in the storm.

 

You want a statement from me, post here how to contact you, and I will.

 

 

[Janman]

6 hours ago, misslyss1220 said:

Wow this is crazy! I hope everyone is all right. I was just off the Escape on Sunday! I have friends on the Anthem, but haven't seen them post anything yet.

Hi Alyssa, 

Hope you made it home safely to your little one. I’m sure he was glad to see you! Sure am glad  we missed this storm! A few hours surely made a difference. Wow!

PS - We sat with you at the Meet & Great.

[Joken35]

we were on a HAL ship in the Fjords off NEw Zealnd last week .Hit a water cyclone.  we thought 21 ft waves were crazy, can't imagine what you experienced felt like

[slugg]

6 hours ago, dpnyc said:

@slugg your comment is intriguing to a ship geek like me! (geek only in the wondering-how-it-works sense as a cruiser; i'm in no way a student of the maritime world!) i was on the ESCAPE on the 12/9-21 trip and we went through storms the first 2 sea days. (it was my 8th cruise so stormy seas were not new to me, but this was the stormiest ever!) plus, i had an aft-facing balcony so could feel it more... plus i was truly fascinated by and wondering how exactly the ship could withstand that violent sea state beyond knowing it was built for it. i felt it so much that i woke up at 4 AM and had to check the navigation channel, and saw a screen that confirmed my concern! (see pic) soooooo if you can please direct me to how to do this basic research on the physics you mention, i'd high five you in my mind! thanks!

English isn’t my first language. I think I got confused with the word “gust” when talking about the wind. A single gust wouldn’t do it. If you’d like to learn why, Google around for how wind transfers energy into water to create waves. The short version of it is that air doesn’t transfer energy efficiently, so you need LOTS of air for a long time to push against water to create those waves. Most of the energy of a single gust of wind would not be transferred, so you wouldn’t get big waves that would list the ship. 

 

However, looking at your pic, I think it may have been 75 mph winds with 100 mph gusts. That makes a LOT more sense. Sustained wind acts over a longer period of time, and if the barometric pressure is higher than normal, the energy transfer is even more effective over the same period of time because more molecules are transferring kinetic energy into the water. 

 

I haven’t mentioned the ship much because while wind does affect a large buoyant vessel, the buoyant forces far exceed aerodynamic forces. I would ballpark that, assuming no mechanical failure of the ship, 90% of what causes an unexpected list is water condition, not wind condition. Granted, wind affects water condition, but it has everything to do with energy transfer both through mediums (that is, transfer from water to vessel) and between kinetic and potential energy (that is, waves making the vessel bob up and down). As the ship moves up, kinetic energy is transferred to potential energy and entropy increases. High entropy situations are the chaotic, unstable conditions, which means turbulence or listing in the context of a cruise ship. 

 

An intuitive way to understand this concept is to go to a water park. If you flow with the lazy river, you might move about 2 miles an hour with the water. But if you stand still, you will need to have very firm footing and you will feel your body fighting against the water. If you do the exact thing on dry land, but against 2 mile per hour wind, it will be comparatively insignificant. This is because the 2 mph water has much, much more energy than the 2 mph wind and the medium can also transfer it to your body more efficiently. But if we hit the lazy river with 100 mph wind for a few seconds (a gust), it would make almost no difference to your speed/turbulence. However, if we sustained it long enough, the wind’s energy would speed up the water as it builds up more kinetic energy in the river over time. You will then topple over if you try to stay standing.

 

If you’re curious about how these things actually work and you’d like to learn the maths and science behind it, you’ll want to start with basic thermodynamics (just basic overview is fine), followed by basic aero or fluid dynamics. To actually calculate movement would require assumptions/generalizations of the ship, water, and other things that I don’t care to do, but you can give it a shot for fun to develop an intuition for it.

 

Have fun!

[kitkat343]

9 hours ago, Bobbyh1265 said:

My Mom and step dad are aboard that ship, They were thrown across the room and mom has a crushed ankle and other injurys , step dad has a dislocated shoulder and cant move his arm..Several others was severly hurt. One person was even pinned under a slot machine. and another woman needed 30 something stitches in her head.. It was pretty bad..

Is your family okay?  So sorry about this.

[cruiserchris613]

18 minutes ago, slugg said:

English isn’t my first language. I think I got confused with the word “gust” when talking about the wind. A single gust wouldn’t do it. If you’d like to learn why, Google around for how wind transfers energy into water to create waves. The short version of it is that air doesn’t transfer energy efficiently, so you need LOTS of air for a long time to push against water to create those waves. Most of the energy of a single gust of wind would not be transferred, so you wouldn’t get big waves that would list the ship. 

 

However, looking at your pic, I think it may have been 75 mph winds with 100 mph gusts. That makes a LOT more sense. Sustained wind acts over a longer period of time, and if the barometric pressure is higher than normal, the energy transfer is even more effective over the same period of time because more molecules are transferring kinetic energy into the water. 

 

I haven’t mentioned the ship much because while wind does affect a large buoyant vessel, the buoyant forces far exceed aerodynamic forces. I would ballpark that, assuming no mechanical failure of the ship, 90% of what causes an unexpected list is water condition, not wind condition. Granted, wind affects water condition, but it has everything to do with energy transfer both through mediums (that is, transfer from water to vessel) and between kinetic and potential energy (that is, waves making the vessel bob up and down). As the ship moves up, kinetic energy is transferred to potential energy and entropy increases. High entropy situations are the chaotic, unstable conditions, which means turbulence or listing in the context of a cruise ship. 

 

An intuitive way to understand this concept is to go to a water park. If you flow with the lazy river, you might move about 2 miles an hour with the water. But if you stand still, you will need to have very firm footing and you will feel your body fighting against the water. If you do the exact thing on dry land, but against 2 mile per hour wind, it will be comparatively insignificant. This is because the 2 mph water has much, much more energy than the 2 mph wind and the medium can also transfer it to your body more efficiently. But if we hit the lazy river with 100 mph wind for a few seconds (a gust), it would make almost no difference to your speed/turbulence. However, if we sustained it long enough, the wind’s energy would speed up the water as it builds up more kinetic energy in the river over time. You will then topple over if you try to stay standing.

 

If you’re curious about how these things actually work and you’d like to learn the maths and science behind it, you’ll want to start with basic thermodynamics (just basic overview is fine), followed by basic aero or fluid dynamics. To actually calculate movement would require assumptions/generalizations of the ship, water, and other things that I don’t care to do, but you can give it a shot for fun to develop an intuition for it.

 

Have fun!

Couldn't have explained it better myself! I think the proper term for this is the metacentric height, or GM, which is the measure of distance between the center of gravity and the metacenter, or point of oscillation. 

Here's a pretty good video explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUgXf2Rj2YQ

 

To reduce the rolling, ships usually steer head-on into the waves, but in this case, the Escape must have suddenly been hit broadside by a swell and sudden gale at the same time, which caused the roll. 

 

I wonder if @chengkp75 has any thoughts on this. What do you think, Chief? KP '75 is much more wiser than a Schuyler '14!

[BirdTravels]

11 hours ago, graphicguy said:

‘Captain just announced that the winds reached 100+ MPH and the waves hitting the ship were in excess of 90 meters.

 

Time for a Bloody Mary and a sushi demonstration.  M&G is in a couple of hours.  With the martini tasting after that.  Sure some of the attendees will have more info.

 

Everything seems fine now.  Will be even better this afternoon! 😉

300 ft waves???? 30 stories??? 2x height of ship??? The Poseidon adventure!

[Gershep]

Hope all those injured are okay.

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, cruiserchris613 said:

Couldn't have explained it better myself! I think the proper term for this is the metacentric height, or GM, which is the measure of distance between the center of gravity and the metacenter, or point of oscillation. 

Here's a pretty good video explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUgXf2Rj2YQ

 

To reduce the rolling, ships usually steer head-on into the waves, but in this case, the Escape must have suddenly been hit broadside by a swell and sudden gale at the same time, which caused the roll. 

 

I wonder if @chengkp75 has any thoughts on this. What do you think, Chief? KP '75 is much more wiser than a Schuyler '14!

Well, let's dispose of the "stabilizer failure" right off the bat.  First off, a stabilizer does not prevent rolling, it merely slows the rolling motion down to a comfortable speed.  It will do nothing for a sustained force that heels the ship over to one side.

 

Now, for the wave vs. wind discussion.  The lazy river analogy is not quite apt, in that there you are resisting an actual flow of water from one place to another.  Wave action is completely different.  Even though it appears that water in waves are flowing in a certain direction, in fact the water is merely going up and down in place, but the pressure wave is moving to affect different water molecules as it moves. But, whatever.  The big thing about wave action is that it is cyclical, and when it pushes on one side of the ship to roll it to the other side, the pressure wave moves past the ship and raises the water on the other side of the ship to roll it back the other way.  Wave action will not produce a prolonged list, and will always result in an equal roll to the other side, which was not reported.

 

While it is correct about the "efficiency" of water or air to transmit pressure or force, you must look at the relative areas that force is working on, and the side of a cruise ship is much greater above the water than below, so the side of the ship acts just like a sail on a sailboat and tips the boat over in response to the wind, until the righting force generated by the metacentric height (distance between the center of gravity and center of buoyancy) equals the wind force on the "sail".  "Wind induced heel" is a very common problem with large ships, and typically requires transfer of liquids (ballast water, fresh water, or sometimes fuel) to counteract a persistent heel.

 

Even without a gust of wind, just a slight change in course could shift the stability of the ship and produce a heel, though this would tend to last for some time until they either went back to the original course or pumped liquids to counteract.

 

In a storm there are "mini-storms" or squall, where the rapid changes in air pressure can cause much greater winds than just a mile away.  These squalls can crop up anywhere at any time, much like air turbulence to an airliner, and the sudden wind acting on the "sail" of the cruise ship side is just like a squall knocking a sailboat over with an extra strong gust of wind.

 

And, I've sailed through 30 meter (near 100 foot) seas and lived to tell about it.  Not particularly fun, and something you need to handle correctly, but a ship, even a cruise ship, can very easily sail through seas that high and survive.  (Now, 90 meter seas, I don't think anyone has ever seen).

Edited March 5, 2019 by chengkp75

[puppycanducruise]

Very scary situation.

Good luck to everyone who was hurt.

Hope the rest of the cruise is fantastic.

[david_sobe]

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/fl-ne-agg-norwegian-escape-wind-injuries-20190304-story.html

[RetiredBird]

Looks like the Escape is due into Port Canaveral by 11:30 this morning, per MarineTraffic.

[graphicguy]

45 minutes ago, RetiredBird said:

Looks like the Escape is due into Port Canaveral by 11:30 this morning, per MarineTraffic.

Yep.....smooth night last night.  Played in the casino until around midnight.  No sign of any trauma.....like nothing happened!

 

Sunny and calm so far this a.m.

[david_sobe]

37 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

Yep.....smooth night last night.  Played in the casino until around midnight.  No sign of any trauma.....like nothing happened!

 

Sunny and calm so far this a.m.

You lost your chair and table from the balcony?  WOW.  I just cant imagine such a list where chairs and the table would go over the balcony.  The table is so small and for them to go over the railing, it must have been the list of all lists.  Its one thing to have them slide but its hard to imagine losing tables and chairs off the balconies. It would have to be so steep.  Surprised there was not more damage inside.

[graphicguy]

7 minutes ago, david_sobe said:

You lost your chair and table from the balcony?  WOW.  I just cant imagine such a list where chairs and the table would go over the balcony.  The table is so small and for them to go over the railing, it must have been the list of all lists.  Its one thing to have them slide but its hard to imagine losing tables and chairs off the balconies. It would have to be so steep.  Surprised there was not more damage inside.

David.....it hit the railing and then looked like an invisible rope kept everything dancing in the balcony.  Then the wind just picked it up and then it was gone.  Don’t know if it landed on another deck or out to sea.

 

Just to clarify a bit from the initial posts.  I misunderstood the wind’s force.  Captain said it was 100 knots, not 100 MPH.  Don’t know the conversion, so I can’t make a correlation.  Not sure about the waves.  Clearly not 90 meters as I thought I heard reported.  Maybe 90 feet?  Not sure!

 

Trying to report what I’ve seen and heard as it happens!

 

We’ll be docking in about 2.5- 3 hours

[CdnCruiseFan]

 

[chengkp75]

25 minutes ago, david_sobe said:

You lost your chair and table from the balcony?  WOW.  I just cant imagine such a list where chairs and the table would go over the balcony.  The table is so small and for them to go over the railing, it must have been the list of all lists.  Its one thing to have them slide but its hard to imagine losing tables and chairs off the balconies. It would have to be so steep.  Surprised there was not more damage inside.

 

2 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

David.....it hit the railing and then looked like an invisible rope kept everything dancing in the balcony.  Then the wind just picked it up and then it was gone.  Don’t know if it landed on another deck or out to sea.

 

Just to clarify a bit from the initial posts.  I misunderstood the wind’s force.  Captain said it was 100 knots, not 100 MPH.  Don’t know the conversion, so I can’t make a correlation.  Not sure about the waves.  Clearly not 90 meters as I thought I heard reported.  Maybe 90 feet?  Not sure!

 

Trying to report what I’ve seen and heard as it happens!

 

We’ll be docking in about 2.5- 3 hours

100 knots is 115 mph.  With the wind blowing from one side, there will be a low pressure on the other side of the ship, creating wind on that "sheltered" side of the ship, so it likely picked up the furniture and sent it over the railing, not the list.

 

I've known, and the Norwegian Sky has experienced, a 45* list just from turning too fast while at full speed.  This is "turn induced heel", where the ship heels away from the direction of turning.  The Sky had about 100 passengers evacuated when the ship docked in Vancouver, several with serious broken bones.  Not much in the way of intact dishes, glassware or bottles afterwards either.

 

The video posted doesn't appear to show the initial heel, as there are already bar stools toppled at the beginning, so I can't say how bad that was.  The rest of the video is mainly shot athwartship (port to starboard, since chairs are sliding towards the camera), but the few shots fore and aft show about a 10*, maybe the occasional 15* roll.  My guess, barring any other photographic evidence (and who would be filming before the initial heel?) would be a 20-25* heel.

[Paphillyguy]

One thing I learned from the Dawn running aground when I was on it a few years ago, some people tend to exaggerate a bit.  I am not saying that in this case.  However, I know what happened back then and the stories we heard on the news from "first hand eye witnesses" was not even close to what truly had happened.   We heard people supposedly from the ship on NBC news and Good Morning America and the horror they were describing was not nearly the case.  If you had heard them we were all lining up for lifeboats and that was far from reality.  

 

This situation does seem more extreme then what I had experienced.  We had a big jolt as you could tell we struck something very hard.  

[graphicguy]

30 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

100 knots is 115 mph.  With the wind blowing from one side, there will be a low pressure on the other side of the ship, creating wind on that "sheltered" side of the ship, so it likely picked up the furniture and sent it over the railing, not the list.

 

I've known, and the Norwegian Sky has experienced, a 45* list just from turning too fast while at full speed.  This is "turn induced heel", where the ship heels away from the direction of turning.  The Sky had about 100 passengers evacuated when the ship docked in Vancouver, several with serious broken bones.  Not much in the way of intact dishes, glassware or bottles afterwards either.

 

The video posted doesn't appear to show the initial heel, as there are already bar stools toppled at the beginning, so I can't say how bad that was.  The rest of the video is mainly shot athwartship (port to starboard, since chairs are sliding towards the camera), but the few shots fore and aft show about a 10*, maybe the occasional 15* roll.  My guess, barring any other photographic evidence (and who would be filming before the initial heel?) would be a 20-25* heel.

You’re right.  It wasn’t the list that sent the furniture flying. It was the actual wind that grabbed  the furniture.  

 

I was never really in fear.  Closest I came to being anxious was when I felt something prickly and cold on my foot when I was getting up off the floor.  Looked red, so thought I cut myself.  Ended up I stepped on one of the chocolate covered strawberries that had been sent to me.  Crisis averted. 

 

This is a big ship, and I knew we were well into the Atlantic.  The likelihood we hit something was nearly nil.  Plus, the wind was making a loud  ruckus so I figured it was some sort of weather anomaly.  There was never any emergency sound blasts on the intercom.  It helped that the Captain was on the intercom keeping everyone informed as to what was happening.

 

The first thing I did after being thrown out of bed was to look out the cabin into the balcony.  That’s when I saw the furniture dancing around the balcony and watched a small chair and table disappear in the abiss.  The loungers were banging around but did not fly away.

 

Looked out the cabin hallway and saw people hugging the wall.  Didn’t venture out to the other decks until we got the “all clear”.  Headed to the Atrium and saw glasses on the floor with some bar chairs tipped over.  Saw some booze bottles on the floor.

 

Crew were everywhere.  They were calm and on top of helping folks who may have fallen and were already clearing public areas so no one would trip.

 

Start to finish, it lasted about an hour.

[Laszlo]

Where is this video I keep hearing about? I only found one from "Bruce" he did a lot of talking but that was it

[RetiredBird]

If is was 100kt winds that equates to 115mph.

 

[judipa]

12 hours ago, cruiserchris613 said:

Couldn't have explained it better myself! I think the proper term for this is the metacentric height, or GM, which is the measure of distance between the center of gravity and the metacenter, or point of oscillation. 

Here's a pretty good video explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUgXf2Rj2YQ

 

To reduce the rolling, ships usually steer head-on into the waves, but in this case, the Escape must have suddenly been hit broadside by a swell and sudden gale at the same time, which caused the roll. 

 

I wonder if @chengkp75 has any thoughts on this. What do you think, Chief? KP '75 is much more wiser than a Schuyler '14!

I was on 12/9 Escape also and I don't remember any storms or any problems. I slept thru it all i guess. LOL

[www3traveler]

Thank you for taking the time to post about this adventure.

 

I have family who are on board and some of them are 1st time cruisers.

 

I know that Alvin Oliva is your Cruise Director.  Is the current Captain, Captain Niklas Perrson?

 

I hope the rest of your cruise goes smoothly.

 

Mandy

[kochleffel]

A co-worker had family members aboard the ship and heard from them yesterday. Their reports were the same as others posted here. As far as I know, they weren't injured.

 

I did wonder whether any injured passengers or crew needed hospital treatment. If so, would it have made sense to put in to Norfolk -- or to Charleston, where there's a university hospital? If the ship was close enough to the coast, helicopter evacuation would have been possible, and if it wasn't needed, perhaps no injuries were that serious.