Shame on Carnival as thousands stand on the pier

[Cruiser_1977]

@Squadleader The original departure was 6:00. They departed at 6:30 and arrived at their first port as scheduled. How was anyone defrauded? They didn't lose a day. At MOST some people lost four hours sitting on a non-moving cruise ship. Guests were already compensated ($50) for that lost few hours.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2019 by JennyB1977

[Keys2Heaven]

@Squadleader Why not take it up with Carnival if it upsets you this much, especially if you're advocating that someone take legal action against the company.

[Organized Chaos]

It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

 

Why wasn't everyone allowed to wait inside the terminal? Carnival saw the debarkation of the charter cruise was going to take much longer than usual, so why not just have them wait in their usual waiting areas? Apparently they offered them transport to another location, but I don't understand why that was even necessary.

 

2 hours ago, Keys2Heaven said:

OP: Thanks for your detailed analysis, but what do you want us to do about it?

 

Do you want us to be as equally upset as you are?

Do you want us to stop cruising Carnival?

Do you want us to continue to rant against Carnival in your thread?

I rarely see the value of posts such as this.

 

The same can be said of your comment. Do you want us to feel the same way as you do about everything? You were free to skip passed this thread, but instead basically say the OP is complaining for no reason. There are discussions of all kinds on here. Informative/educational, complaints/rants, questions/answers, you name it. None of them have to meet your criteria in order to fit in.

 

2 hours ago, Doggielover68 said:

Fun fact: Florida has sun and people have to be outside sometimes. No one forced you to continue standing in line for hours. 

 

If you can't tolerate warm temperatures, why are you going on a Caribbean cruise anyway?

 

Most people who arrive at a cruise terminal have nowhere else to go. They aren't prepared to stand around outside for several hours, and justifiably so. Some choose not to check their luggage, so they have that with them, which makes going anywhere difficult. I suppose they can call a taxi or ride of some kind, but they shouldn't have to. Their plans, their lack of knowledge of the area, maybe even their budgets, or any number of factors means they may not have accounted for such a delay. And it has nothing to do with being able to tolerate "warm" temperatures or not. Many aren't prepared to be exposed to those temps when they didn't know they'd be forced to. You do realize that on a Caribbean cruise, you can seek refuge in a number of cool places, right?

 

1 hour ago, Joebucks said:

Or even easier, understand that things happen. Any cruise ship can be delayed during embarkation or debarkation.

 

But this wasn't an average case of unforeseen circumstances. Carnival experienced this delay before with the exact same charter. They knew from past experience there was a very good chance there'd be another long delay.

[Elaine5715]

53 minutes ago, Squadleader said:

I'm a practical person, I fully understand and accept when you're unloading and loading thousands of people in a four hour window every single week, things can occasionally go wrong. My family and I love cruising and we accept that. 

 

What makes this case different is Carnival knew this was going to happen the moment Tom Joyner chartered the ship. 

 

It's a very tough job to turn a ship around every week, and they have it down to a science, and don't waste a single minute. 

 

When you book a charter that has stages, sound equipment and all the other special things this charter had, Carnival knew from the get go this turnaround was going to be several hours late. 

 

Carnival used the get out of jail card that covers unforseen circumstances, to knowingly sell the April 14 cruise as normal, when they were fully aware it was not going to be normal. 

 

That's all I'm talking about, they knowingly defrauded all the passengers who booked the April 14th sailing, then tried to put that that fraud in the category of unforseen events.

 

It's Carnivals ship, they had to to approve all the extra equipment being added to the ship, they were entirely involved in the process. They were fully aware of the delays it was going to cause, they're experts, the largest cruise line in the world with over a hundred ships under their different brands. 

 

As one of the April 7th passengers noted, even they were delayed several hours on embarking because of the equipment work. 

 

My thought is all an attorney would have to show is these delays were known to Carnival from the beginning, which removes it from the purview of unforseen events. 

 

As to the purpose of this post, how can it help? 

 

Carnival did this because they've done it before and got away with it. They'll continue to do it until they're called out on it. 

 

In my line of work, if I knowingly misrepresent something to you and sell it to you, I'm liable. 

 

Perhaps it's naive of me to even make this post, perhaps it's useless, but I think when someone knowingly defrauds another person they should be punished. Not so much to compensate those passengers on the pier, but to change a policy that allows Carnival to use the reasonable unforseen clause, to cover up the willful fraud of selling a cruise as normal, when they knew all along it was going to be hours late embarking. 

 

What really goads me, is that to use the unforseen clause to cover up this fraud, it requires Carnival to act surprised when it happens, which means corporate has to let all those people stand on the pier for hours so they can say "oh goodness, how unexpected all this is!". They actually used the people they defrauded as props to their "oh what a surprise defence". If Carnival had announced that morning, or sent an email the week before saying "oh by the way, we had a charter last week, and we're going to be six hours late embarking", it would remove the fraud from the protection of the unforseen events clause. 

 

I am not an attorney, but I understand motivation, and I've been in business my whole life, and this is a clear case of a foreseen event being labeled unforeseen. 

 

I haven't done the research, that's why those passengers should get a lawyer, but I've got a feeling this happens every time there's a charter that involves more than just people, like in this case, stages and sound equipment. 

 

This isn't the end of the world, but it's so willful and blatant, that I think after all these years, a stop should be put to his practice. 

 

A lawyer should drag them into court and let Carnival explain this practice to a judge, or better yet, Carnival should man up and say in the past we've misjudged turnarounds on charters and starting today that stops. Any known embarkation delay will be noted in the booking information, so passengers have the right to decide for themselves if they want to book that particular cruise. 

 

I dare say there's not a single one of us that would not agree that if you're going to sell me a cruise, that you know has some unusual aspect to it, it should be disclosed, that's only fair. 

 

The only reason not to disclose it is because you recognize you're not offering the normal value to me you usually do, and you intend to make me pay a price I would not, if I knew the facts. The fact you don't want to tell me proves that point. It's true a truncated cruise would have to be discounted to sell it, but again, that proves the motivation for the fraud. 

 

The best possible outcome to this is that the passengers currently on the Magic hear about this, and find a lawyer to represent them. Just one energetic passenger who lives in South Florida could ramrod shopping this to attorneys in South Florida, and seeing if they could find an attorney to take it on a contingency basis, so all the aggrieved passengers could sign up to the case for free. This isn't about the money, the injury is too small, it's about stopping this fraudulent policy at Carnival and other lines as well.

 

If those passengers were able to share their contact information either right now on the cruise, or even here after returning, that would make holding Carnival accountable possible. 

 

If a cruise line knows, or should have known, a significant scheduling event will affect a cruise, they should be required to disclose it. 

 

My guess is that if no one has ever called them out on this before, it'll be very easy to prove they knew this was going to happen because they've probably been very sloppy about the cover-up, since they haven't been challenged before. 

 

In this case, the Tom Joyner charter, they've been doing this charter for years. On another thread, a person said their 2015 cruise after the Tom Joyner charter also had the same kind of delay as the this year. My guess is it happens every year. 

 

I hope someone on the current April 14th cruise gets wind of this, and runs with the ball! It'll be a blessing to all future passengers. 

 

There is no holding anyone accountable.  All of this in covered in your cruise contract.  

[jimbo5544]

Interesting thread, I do not recall this coming up in the past and being reported here (at least in terms of thousands of people waiting outside).  

[xDisconnections]

2 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Interesting thread, I do not recall this coming up in the past and being reported here (at least in terms of thousands of people waiting outside).  

For the previous charter, it didn’t gain as much publicity and people weren’t passing out while being rushed to hospitals because of several various factors including heat exhaustion.

Edited April 18, 2019 by xDisconnections

[Squadleader]

Take a look at these photos of the event. This is just the people outside the terminal. You know why they're outside, because the inside of the terminal is already full. Every single passenger for the April 14 cruise is standing on the pier with their luggage, inside or outside. Take a look at this video

 

 

Ok, it's bad, and it went on for hours. Unforeseen, yeah that's the risk of traveling. My point is this was not unforeseen, Carnival knew because of the logistics of the charter equipment, and also prior experience, this was going to happen. 

 

They simply didn't want the passengrers of the April 14th cruise to know this was going to happen because it would affect bookings. 

 

Yeah, the world kept spinning and these people got on with their lives. But are these people dumb animals? Do they deserve to have Carnival knowingly withhold the information that this embarkation was going to be hours late, so Carnival could sell the cruise as normal, which Carnival knew it wasn't going to be.

 

Hey, I get there are lots of tough guys and girls on this board, I roll with the punches too. People make mistakes, I do all the time, but when it's willful people need to be held accountable and correct their behavior. Especially a company that thousands of people trust to keep them safe and comfortable. This is an example of not doing that. Carnival decided to just let this happen and then pretend it was unforeseen, and then just keep on down the road.

 

Calling Carnival out makes them accountable for very selfish, shortsighted behavior at the expense of the passengers who trusted Carnival.

 

The problem here is that this didn't need to happen. All Carnival had to do was tell people in advance that boarding was going to be six hours late. They didn't do that because it would affect the price of the cruise.

 

I'm sorry if anyone thinks it's OK to sell someone a cruise that is going to start with a six hour wait on the pier in the sun that the line knows about months before it happens, I just don't agree.

 

No one died, it's not a national crisis, but Carnival needs to be held accountable for treating its customers this way.

 

As far as people saying I would just go to Bayside or do this or that, that's all said with the advantage of hindsight. Carnival could have told these people months in advance this was going to happen, but they chose not too. They victimized their own customers.

 

People are coming out of hotel rooms with all their luggage, maybe screaming kids, maybe handicapped whatever. Did Carnival have the right to knowingly subject these people to this?

[Doggielover68]

54 minutes ago, Organized Chaos said:

It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

 

Why wasn't everyone allowed to wait inside the terminal? Carnival saw the debarkation of the charter cruise was going to take much longer than usual, so why not just have them wait in their usual waiting areas? Apparently they offered them transport to another location, but I don't understand why that was even necessary.

 

 

The same can be said of your comment. Do you want us to feel the same way as you do about everything? You were free to skip passed this thread, but instead basically say the OP is complaining for no reason. There are discussions of all kinds on here. Informative/educational, complaints/rants, questions/answers, you name it. None of them have to meet your criteria in order to fit in.

 

 

Most people who arrive at a cruise terminal have nowhere else to go. They aren't prepared to stand around outside for several hours, and justifiably so. Some choose not to check their luggage, so they have that with them, which makes going anywhere difficult. I suppose they can call a taxi or ride of some kind, but they shouldn't have to. Their plans, their lack of knowledge of the area, maybe even their budgets, or any number of factors means they may not have accounted for such a delay. And it has nothing to do with being able to tolerate "warm" temperatures or not. Many aren't prepared to be exposed to those temps when they didn't know they'd be forced to. You do realize that on a Caribbean cruise, you can seek refuge in a number of cool places, right?

 

 

But this wasn't an average case of unforeseen circumstances. Carnival experienced this delay before with the exact same charter. They knew from past experience there was a very good chance there'd be another long delay.

 

Yes, there are cool places on a cruise ship. I also know that there are times when the hot temperatures aren't avoidable. I have seen plenty of people on board looking like they are about to pass out from the heat. 

 

Getting a taxi is not hard. You use one to get to the port anyway. The first afternoon of a cruise it not really that exciting. It's not any different than any other mode of transportation. Think about flights. Flights are delayed every single day. Do the airlines give you money and details of when exactly you will be on your way? No! You haul your luggage around a crowded airport for an unknown number of hours until it's time to go. 

 

Yesterday I went to a restaurant without a sweatshirt. It was cold in there from the a/c. I had goosebumps and was shivering the whole time. It was my responsibility to be prepared and bring a sweatshirt. In the same way, it is a cruise passengers responsibility to be prepared when things don't go as planned. They don't need to hold your hand.

[Doggielover68]

41 minutes ago, xDisconnections said:

For the previous charter, it didn’t gain as much publicity and people weren’t passing out while being rushed to hospitals because of several various factors including heat exhaustion.

Just took a look at the temperatures from that day. It was in the 80s. That's practically long pants weather where I am from (mid atlantic).

[Cruiser_1977]

6 minutes ago, Doggielover68 said:

Just took a look at the temperatures from that day. It was in the 80s. That's practically long pants weather where I am from (mid atlantic).

I did the same thing. 

[NightOne]

Lawyers? Fraud? etc.

 

First, let's address the "defrauding" dribble with the cruise contract:

 

"(d) Carnival may change the duration and/or itinerary of the cruise at any time. The Vessel shall be entitled to leave and enter ports with or without pilots or tugs, to tow and assist other vessels in any circumstances, to return to or enter any port at the Master's discretion and for any purpose, and to deviate in any direction or for any purpose from the direct or usual course, and to omit or change any or all port calls, arrival or departure times, with or without notice, for any reason whatsoever, including but not limited to safety, security, adverse weather, hurricanes, tornadoes, strikes, tides, hostilities, civil unrest, port closings, emergency debarkations of Guests or crew, late air, sea, car or motor coach departures or arrivals, mechanical breakdowns, US or foreign governmental advisories or travel warnings, all such deviations being considered as forming part of and included in the proposed voyage. Except as provided in Clause 7(c) with regard to early termination of a voyage, Carnival shall have no liability for any compensation or other damages in such circumstances for any change in itinerary, ports of call, ports of embarkation and debarkation, and/or or duration of the cruise, other than as provided by Carnival's change of itinerary policy at the time Guest or his agent acknowledges receipt and acceptance of the terms and conditions of the cruise ticket contract. Carnival’s change of itinerary policy can be found at on Carnival's Website or at Carnival's FAQ page."

 

So bye bye legal case. There isn't one. Carnival can delay the departure as long as they want for whatever reason they want.

 

Second, the passengers were not stuck at a "pier" or in the sun. They were outside a cruise terminal that has several places that have shade. (as seen in the pictures)

 

Third, the passengers who didn't want to stand outside could have left and come back later.

 

When did this country turn into a bunch of whining cry babies who think they are entitled to everything? People had to stand in a line for a long time to get ON A CRUISE SHIP and take a VACATION. I'm sure there are tons of people stuck at work that would stand in a line for 16 hours to get the chance to go. People have turned into a bunch of spoiled brats because they've had it too good their entire lives. The world hasn't always been air conditioned and ultra-convenient.

 

These people deserve nothing ... absolutely nothing.

 

#Truth

[Squadleader]

Doggielover68 I completely agree with you, they don't need to hold your hand about unforeseen events, but are they allowed to know you're embarkation is going to be six hours late months in advance, and then not tell you because you may not choose that cruise because of it?

 

Would you really get out of a cab on embarkation day, then get back in again, and then just drive away as you wonder what time the ship is going to leave because Carnival didn't tell anyone.  Do you realize they didn't even start boarding until close to the original sail away time? Were you going to go sit in a hotel suite on embarkation day as your ship sailed away?

 

You're exactly right about unforeseen events with airlines or cruise ships. However, this event was foreseeable and does not come under that clause. it's defrauding a customer to sell them a cruise you know is not normal without disclosing it to the customer.

 

Carnivals been getting away with this for years and no one said anything. It's time to say something. 

[Keys2Heaven]

1 hour ago, Organized Chaos said:

It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

 

Why wasn't everyone allowed to wait inside the terminal? Carnival saw the debarkation of the charter cruise was going to take much longer than usual, so why not just have them wait in their usual waiting areas? Apparently they offered them transport to another location, but I don't understand why that was even necessary.

 

 

The same can be said of your comment. Do you want us to feel the same way as you do about everything? You were free to skip passed this thread, but instead basically say the OP is complaining for no reason. There are discussions of all kinds on here. Informative/educational, complaints/rants, questions/answers, you name it. None of them have to meet your criteria in order to fit in.

 

 

Most people who arrive at a cruise terminal have nowhere else to go. They aren't prepared to stand around outside for several hours, and justifiably so. Some choose not to check their luggage, so they have that with them, which makes going anywhere difficult. I suppose they can call a taxi or ride of some kind, but they shouldn't have to. Their plans, their lack of knowledge of the area, maybe even their budgets, or any number of factors means they may not have accounted for such a delay. And it has nothing to do with being able to tolerate "warm" temperatures or not. Many aren't prepared to be exposed to those temps when they didn't know they'd be forced to. You do realize that on a Caribbean cruise, you can seek refuge in a number of cool places, right?

 

 

But this wasn't an average case of unforeseen circumstances. Carnival experienced this delay before with the exact same charter. They knew from past experience there was a very good chance there'd be another long delay.

 

Oh, I see, the old "walk on by if you don't like it" retort. I never asked YOU or anyone else to meet my criteria and not even sure what you mean by that. I asked what the OP wanted us to do. They posted a diatribe on the matter, offering opinion-based analysis but no prospective solutions, except for Carnival to lawyer up.

Was this a cluster, you bet. Nobody is denying this. But taking it here to stir the pot with some people who already have a dislike for Carnival does nothing, except pit CC members against other once again. 

If you feel strongly enough to write a page on a web forum, draft a letter to corporate or John Heald, for that matter, and let them know.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Keys2Heaven

[Keys2Heaven]

13 minutes ago, Squadleader said:

Carnivals been getting away with this for years and no one said anything. It's time to say something. 

 

Then tell THEM.

[Squadleader]

NightOne, the next time you spend your hard earned money for what you think is a normal cruise, are you Ok with standing on the pier for six hours?

 

I've got news for you about contracts, lots of clauses in contracts aren't enforceable. My lawyer always told me the law is whatever that judge says it is that day. 

 

The entire crux of what happened here is that Carnival knew, or should have known this embarkation was going to be hours late. It was not unforeseen, just the opposite.

 

I don't agree with handholding either, but I do not think it's fair to sell thousands of unsuspecting passengers a cruise Carnival knows is going to have a six-hour wait on the pier as its beginning. 

 

If Carnival told you that you would avoid the cruise or expect to buy it at a discount because you and everyone else knows, that's not at all a normal embarkation. 

 

Carnival purposely withheld that information from their customers and my guess is it would be easy to prove. No judge in the world would condone Carnival purposely withholding information as important as that from a customer. Clauses that are an affront to the law, in that one party is using a contract to commit in this case fraud, can be struck down. The law cannot be used as a shield to commit an unlawful act. 

 

Carnival withheld important information from it's customers that Carnival knew of at the time of booking. Carnival benefited financially from that withholding. The customers did not get what they bargained for, a normal cruise. They were defrauded.

 

After all this wrangling, why doesn't Carnival do what's right and disclose this kind of thing to customers? That's the right thing to do. 

 

Anyone of us who booked that cruise would not have expected to be treated as those passengers were treated. 

[BigCruze]

Ship Happens 

[mpdog42]

17 minutes ago, NightOne said:

Lawyers? Fraud? etc.

 

First, let's address the "defrauding" dribble with the cruise contract:

 

"(d) Carnival may change the duration and/or itinerary of the cruise at any time. The Vessel shall be entitled to leave and enter ports with or without pilots or tugs, to tow and assist other vessels in any circumstances, to return to or enter any port at the Master's discretion and for any purpose, and to deviate in any direction or for any purpose from the direct or usual course, and to omit or change any or all port calls, arrival or departure times, with or without notice, for any reason whatsoever, including but not limited to safety, security, adverse weather, hurricanes, tornadoes, strikes, tides, hostilities, civil unrest, port closings, emergency debarkations of Guests or crew, late air, sea, car or motor coach departures or arrivals, mechanical breakdowns, US or foreign governmental advisories or travel warnings, all such deviations being considered as forming part of and included in the proposed voyage. Except as provided in Clause 7(c) with regard to early termination of a voyage, Carnival shall have no liability for any compensation or other damages in such circumstances for any change in itinerary, ports of call, ports of embarkation and debarkation, and/or or duration of the cruise, other than as provided by Carnival's change of itinerary policy at the time Guest or his agent acknowledges receipt and acceptance of the terms and conditions of the cruise ticket contract. Carnival’s change of itinerary policy can be found at on Carnival's Website or at Carnival's FAQ page."

 

So bye bye legal case. There isn't one. Carnival can delay the departure as long as they want for whatever reason they want.

 

Second, the passengers were not stuck at a "pier" or in the sun. They were outside a cruise terminal that has several places that have shade. (as seen in the pictures)

 

Third, the passengers who didn't want to stand outside could have left and come back later.

 

When did this country turn into a bunch of whining cry babies who think they are entitled to everything? People had to stand in a line for a long time to get ON A CRUISE SHIP and take a VACATION. I'm sure there are tons of people stuck at work that would stand in a line for 16 hours to get the chance to go. People have turned into a bunch of spoiled brats because they've had it too good their entire lives. The world hasn't always been air conditioned and ultra-convenient.

 

These people deserve nothing ... absolutely nothing.

 

#Truth

Cruise Contract "may" be legal but that doesn't make them always morally right

Mike

[Lottacruises]

This has been my favorite thread on this site. I thank you OP for saying the things you are saying.

[Keys2Heaven]

5 minutes ago, Squadleader said:

NightOne, the next time you spend your hard earned money for what you think is a normal cruise, are you Ok with standing on the pier for six hours?

 

I've got news for you about contracts, lots of clauses in contracts aren't enforceable. My lawyer always told me the law is whatever that judge says it is that day. 

 

The entire crux of what happened here is that Carnival knew, or should have known this embarkation was going to be hours late. It was not unforeseen, just the opposite.

 

I don't agree with handholding either, but I do not think it's fair to sell thousands of unsuspecting passengers a cruise Carnival knows is going to have a six-hour wait on the pier as its beginning. 

 

If Carnival told you that you would avoid the cruise or expect to buy it at a discount because you and everyone else knows, that's not at all a normal embarkation. 

 

Carnival purposely withheld that information from their customers and my guess is it would be easy to prove. No judge in the world would condone Carnival purposely withholding information as important as that from a customer. Clauses that are an affront to the law, in that one party is using a contract to commit in this case fraud, can be struck down. The law cannot be used as a shield to commit an unlawful act. 

 

Carnival withheld important information from it's customers that Carnival knew of at the time of booking. Carnival benefited financially from that withholding. The customers did not get what they bargained for, a normal cruise. They were defrauded.

 

After all this wrangling, why doesn't Carnival do what's right and disclose this kind of thing to customers? That's the right thing to do. 

 

Anyone of us who booked that cruise would not have expected to be treated as those passengers were treated. 

 

Put those writing skills to use and draft a letter to corporate. That's the right thing to do (for you, perhaps?).

Edited April 18, 2019 by Keys2Heaven

[Squadleader]

Oh we are telling them, right here, but that's probably not good enough. 

 

What really matters though is that the people who have legal standing (those actually aggrieved, the April 14th passengers) tell them. Only an aggrieved party can bring suit, probably the only thing that would get Carnivals attention anyway, that's why I hope one of them will get the contact information for the other passengers and give it to a lawyer. 

 

There's no money in this for the passengers, the lawyer would have to get that, but holding them accountable is the only way to stop what is a very bad policy they have adopted, of knowing something is going to be bad and not disclosing it.

[Keys2Heaven]

1 minute ago, Squadleader said:

Oh we are telling them, right here, but that's probably not good enough.

 

You're are correct, it isn't good enough to do it on CC.

[sfaaa]

I will stand in line for hours to get my $50 free money.

[TNcruising02]

It seems like it would have been very simple for Carnival to send text messages and emails to everyone at 10:00 am letting them know of the delay.  I can tell you that once I am checked out of my hotel and at the port, I am not going to take a cab to a mall and come back later unless I am specifically  told that boarding will not begin for four or five hours.  Same goes for delays in flights.  I don't leave the gate area when my flight is delayed because I know that can change at any minute. It sounds like Carnival left these people hanging for hours on end. 

On the other hand,  if I received a message at 10:00 am telling me that boarding will be delayed by four hours, I would know that I could wait in the hotel lobby or ask for a later check out time.

[Cruiser_1977]

It will be interesting to see what those that are actually on this cruise have to say when they disembark on Saturday, if not before. I posted in the Roll Call for their comments on this thread, since it happened to them.

[Squadleader]

The White Star Line didn't know the Titanic was going to sink (although they were negligent of course) that is labeled an unforeseen accident. But had they known the ship was going to sink, and allowed 1,500 people to buy tickets and drown, that would be murder, a crime. 

 

Carnival knew there was going to be an hours-long embarkation delay and didn't disclose it. That's fraud, a crime.