Sex offender in restricted ports

[clo]

13 minutes ago, Shmoo here said:

, there's no documentation that will let you in. 

Rather there's no documentation that will keep you out.  Right?

[leaveitallbehind]

14 minutes ago, clo said:

Rather there's no documentation that will keep you out.  Right?

No.  If a country forbids entry to a given individual based on their laws regarding previous legal offences and issues, then there is no documentation that will allow that person entry to that country.  If he can't enter, he can't enter.  Pretty straightforward. 

 

And as also mentioned, although a cruise line may permit boarding for that individual, that decision would also be itinerary based.  And if a country on a given itinerary will not permit entry to their waters or off ship to that person, then the cruise line will also deny boarding.

[clo]

34 minutes ago, leaveitallbehind said:

there is no documentation that will allow that person entry to that country. 

I'm clearly misunderstanding something.  There's is no documentation that WON'T allow him in either, right/

[leaveitallbehind]

7 minutes ago, clo said:

I'm clearly misunderstanding something.  There's is no documentation that WON'T allow him in either, right/

 

I don't understand your confusion or question.  If a country denies entry for someone for legal or criminal issues, then he is denied entry.  And there is no documentation from his residence country that will override the other countries laws or regulations.  He cannot enter that country - period.  What "documentation" do you think would negate that situation?

[clo]

4 minutes ago, leaveitallbehind said:

 

I don't understand your confusion or question.  If a country denies entry for someone for legal or criminal issues, then he is denied entry.  And there is no documentation from his residence country that will override the other countries laws or regulations.  He cannot enter that country - period.  What "documentation" do you think would negate that situation?

How would they know?  Did the OP state that he's verified that the cruise line doesn't notify the country?  Again, I'm probably not understanding something since others of you have a different read on it.

[nascarcruiser]

There was a guy who used to dive with a group of us who was a felon and sex offender.  I didn't know at the time.  The group would fly into Cozumel every year and he went thru a little more scrutiny but never had an issue 

[hallux]

23 minutes ago, clo said:

How would they know?  Did the OP state that he's verified that the cruise line doesn't notify the country?  Again, I'm probably not understanding something since others of you have a different read on it.

Read post #7.  The OP notifies US authorities of plans to travel out of the country, the US authorities then notify the authorities of the countries to which they are traveling.  While the ship may not know, when the manifest is transferred to the Mexican authorities their name is possibly going to be flagged.  That name then becomes one of those called prior to allowing passengers off the ship at the port of call if the country will not allow entry for that passenger.

[leaveitallbehind]

30 minutes ago, clo said:

How would they know?  Did the OP state that he's verified that the cruise line doesn't notify the country?  Again, I'm probably not understanding something since others of you have a different read on it.

Well it wan't clear to me that you meant it as "how would they know" as the focus of your questions that I read seemed to be focused on (travel) documentation.  As I posted before,  there are at least two cruise lines that run background checks on every passenger on the manifest 30 days prior to sailing.  That would be one way it would turn up - and he would then be denied boarding if the itinerary includes countries that would prohibit entry.  The cruise line would not risk an issue for themselves because of this. 

 

Not sure I believe that a cruise line would verify to a passenger that they don't notify countries or have any concerns with who boards their ships - that seems a bit naive to me.  Manifest are presented to each port of call on every itinerary - certainly those countries can (and likely do) run checks as well.

 

But you are correct - he could just hope nobody finds out and take his chances.  But if his background is discovered once on board he could be put ashore at the first port of call, and if it is discovered somehow in a port of call, he would have to deal with those authorities - all at his own expense with no refund from the cruise line.  It is rather difficult for a criminal background to be kept undiscovered these days - background checks for credit cards, passport applications, etc.

Edited June 30, 2019 by leaveitallbehind

[clo]

11 minutes ago, leaveitallbehind said:

Well it wan't clear to me that you meant it as "how would they know" as the focus of your questions that I read seemed to be focused on (travel) documentation.  As I posted before,  there are at least two cruise lines that run background checks on every passenger on the manifest 30 days prior to sailing.  That would be one way it would turn up - and he would then be denied boarding if the itinerary includes countries that would prohibit entry.  The cruise line would not risk an issue for themselves because of this. 

 

Not sure I believe that a cruise line would verify to a passenger that they don't notify countries or have any concerns with who boards their ships - that seems a bit naive to me.  Manifest are presented to each port of call on every itinerary - certainly those countries can (and likely do) run checks as well.

 

But you are correct - he could just hope nobody finds out and take his chances.  But if his background is discovered once on board he could be put ashore at the first port of call, and if it is discovered somehow in a port of call, he would have to deal with those authorities - all at his own expense with no refund from the cruise line.  It is rather difficult for a criminal background to be kept undiscovered these days - background checks for credit cards, passport applications, etc.

Yeah, I clearly was distracted today.  Sorry.

 

Regarding background checks, I did a little reading earlier today that indicated that people have to be notified that a background check will be done.  I wonder if that's in the fine print that none of us ever read.

[leaveitallbehind]

1 hour ago, clo said:

Yeah, I clearly was distracted today.  Sorry.

 

Regarding background checks, I did a little reading earlier today that indicated that people have to be notified that a background check will be done.  I wonder if that's in the fine print that none of us ever read.

They are done in many instances for a number of valid reasons - Personal ID, Passports, firearms purchases, teacher clearance, government jobs, medical care fields, security clearances, TSA pre-check (and other similar) travel programs, childcare, etc., etc.  Given the climate since 911 all quite legitimate and, even though it is provided, honestly shouldn't require any notification - no personal rights violated in any of those instances.  I've had mine checked several times for different reasons without any hesitation.  The only ones IMO that should be concerned are those with something to hide - in which case the checks are even more valid.

Edited July 1, 2019 by leaveitallbehind

[clo]

3 minutes ago, leaveitallbehind said:

They are done in many instances for a number of valid reasons - Personal ID, Passports, firearms purchases, teacher clearance, government jobs, medical care fields, security clearances, TSA pre-check (and other similar) travel programs, childcare, etc., etc.  Given the climate since 2001 all quite legitimate and even honestly shouldn't require any notification - no personal rights violated in any of those instances.  I've had mine checked several times for different reasons without any hesitation.  The only ones IMO that should be concerned are those with something to hide - in which case the checks are even more valid.

But my point is that it seems that people have to be notified in advance.  No?

[leaveitallbehind]

5 minutes ago, clo said:

But my point is that it seems that people have to be notified in advance.  No?

I always was.  They aren't just done without cause - they take place when you are seeking something where confirming a lack criminal background is necessary.  But IMO it doesn't matter, since the purpose is to check for arrests, criminal convictions, and other illegal activity in someone's background.  It isn't judgmental or the moral police - it is just a search of facts for obvious reasons.

Edited July 1, 2019 by leaveitallbehind

[CPT Trips]

Context is everything. Most background checks of the type a cruise line might do are a search of public records. As such permission is not required.

Employment law differs and in many states does require consent. 

 

ETA: simultaneous typing 

If one is asked and does not consent to a background check in the scenarios described above, the application won't be approved.

Edited July 1, 2019 by CPT Trips

[GeezerCouple]

5 hours ago, clo said:

I'm clearly misunderstanding something.  There's is no documentation that WON'T allow him in either, right/

 

Yes, you are misunderstanding.

 

This is similar to why some people with convictions, including some we in the USA might consider "minor", are not allowed in Canada.  And thus, they will not be allowed on a ship that stops in ports in Canada.

There are checks on passenger lists, between/among governments.

 

ETA:  There are quite a few discussions here on CC about what is required (and it isn't necessarily easy) to get "cleared" to enter Canada - and thus take a cruise including Canadian ports - if there has been a conviction in the USA.

 

GC

Edited July 1, 2019 by GeezerCouple

[Husky61]

33 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

 

Yes, you are misunderstanding.

 

This is similar to why some people with convictions, including some we in the USA might consider "minor", are not allowed in Canada.  And thus, they will not be allowed on a ship that stops in ports in Canada.

There are checks on passenger lists, between/among governments.

 

ETA:  There are quite a few discussions here on CC about what is required (and it isn't necessarily easy) to get "cleared" to enter Canada - and thus take a cruise including Canadian ports - if there has been a conviction in the USA.

 

GC

Canada is the "ONLY" country that has access to NCIC.  Anyone has access to a national sex offender data base, which is not comprehensive or even current.  And depending on the state and the court where a sex offender was convicted, not all sex offender records are available for the public to search, and not all sex offender are required to register, or register for life.  As far as other criminal offenses such as Burglary, Robbery, Assault, no other country in the world has access to those records other than Canada.  With that said,  if a criminal offender travels to Mexico, Brazil, England, etc, those countries cannot access any criminal record here in the US, so they would have no way of denying them entry based on a criminal record in the US.

[MBP&O2/O]

Many many MANY moons ago I visited the USA on. British registered ship. It was at the time of the MacArthur (?) era. Everyone was scrutinised and asked all about communism .... were you / are you  /do you know anyone etc who is / was / might be or is thinking about communism ... including your neighbours dog walker 😀

One lad, in a fit of pique, said he was and he was locked up on the spot!

Quite recently someone I knew went abroad. They were on bail and were refused entry when the immigration authorities found out.

In neither case had anyone been found guilty of committing any criminal offence.

The point being that who really knows how the authorities use and / or exchange the information and act on it? 

[Cruiser_1977]

@tony_117 Please check with the Mexican Embassy.  (202) 728-1600 e-mail: mexembusa@sre.gob.mx

 

They will give you the ultimate yes you can enter, no you can't enter but can stay onboard, or you may not enter Mexican waters (which would mean, pick another cruise).

[ed01106]

On 6/30/2019 at 11:36 AM, tony_117 said:

I'm a registered sex offender because of something that happened over 20 years.  I'm not here to get into that but I am looking at going on a cruise that departs from Florida and goes to the Western Caribbean (It is on a cruise line allows sex offenders to travel).  Some of the ports of call don't allow sex offenders (namely Mexico).  If I try to enter the country will they just make me return to the ship or will they make me cut my trip short and fly home?  And if I don't try to get off the ship, will I be OK on the ship or will they still send be back being I am in Mexican waters?

 

 

I would talk to an attorney that specializes in international criminal law rather than rely on random folks from the internet.

 

That being said I doubt the mexican authorities are going to come onto the ship if you stay on board looking for you.  OTOH, if you attempt to leave the ship, I doubt you will just be sent back, but rather you risk spending the rest of your in a mexican prison.

[Husky61]

On 6/30/2019 at 8:36 AM, tony_117 said:

I'm a registered sex offender because of something that happened over 20 years.  I'm not here to get into that but I am looking at going on a cruise that departs from Florida and goes to the Western Caribbean (It is on a cruise line allows sex offenders to travel).  Some of the ports of call don't allow sex offenders (namely Mexico).  If I try to enter the country will they just make me return to the ship or will they make me cut my trip short and fly home?  And if I don't try to get off the ship, will I be OK on the ship or will they still send be back being I am in Mexican waters?

First let me say that I am a retired Detective Bureau Commander with 31 years of law enforcement experience in Los Angeles.  At one time I  commanded the sex offender division.  In California there are two types of sex registering, mandatory sex registering and discretionary registering. That means that not all sex offenders have to register. While I didn't work in other states, I am familiar with some states that have the same requirements. Mexico like all other countries except Canada do not have access to NCIC, so they cannot run a background check through that database for any criminal record. And contrary to what you may have read on this forum, if and when you travel, US authorities do not notify other countries of your offense.

 

In Washington where I now live, there are several types of registration that are not permanent.  A judge can end your registration as well as certain offenses terminate on their own after a period of time. I would suggest that you research the laws of the state where you were convicted and at least consult with a law firm that specializes in sex offenses. That should put your mind at ease.

 

Plus can you imagine the shear logistics of conducting sex offense backgrounds of every passenger that cruises in the Caribbean in just one year?

[Toofarfromthesea]

21 hours ago, clo said:

I doubt that legally that's a good enough reason.  

 

Why wouldn't it be?  I'm pretty sure they can refuse service to anyone for any reason, other than illegal discrimination against a protected class.  Sex offenders are not a protected class.

[Toofarfromthesea]

21 hours ago, clo said:

Did you mean to write "can" stop you?  And if he doesn't go ashore then it's moot, isn't it?

 

No, because by entering their territorial waters and docking in their port you are 'in their country's just as much as if you get off the boat and walk around.  And if they find out the ship could have some serious problems.

[Toofarfromthesea]

19 hours ago, clo said:

How would they know?  Did the OP state that he's verified that the cruise line doesn't notify the country?  Again, I'm probably not understanding something since others of you have a different read on it.

 

Personally, I think it is a really really bad idea to break some other country's laws in the hope that they won't find out.  I see your point about documentation, but it really comes down to breaking their laws.  

Edited July 1, 2019 by Toofarfromthesea

[clo]

1 minute ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

No, because by entering their territorial waters and docking in their port you are 'in their country's just as much as if you get off the boat and walk around.  And if they find out the ship could have some serious problems.

I think @Husky61 reply gave a ton of great info.

[Toofarfromthesea]

19 hours ago, hallux said:

Read post #7.  The OP notifies US authorities of plans to travel out of the country, the US authorities then notify the authorities of the countries to which they are traveling.  While the ship may not know, when the manifest is transferred to the Mexican authorities their name is possibly going to be flagged.  That name then becomes one of those called prior to allowing passengers off the ship at the port of call if the country will not allow entry for that passenger.

 

If the passenger is on the ship, and the ship is in port, then the passenger has already entered that country.

[Toofarfromthesea]

17 hours ago, clo said:

But my point is that it seems that people have to be notified in advance.  No?

 

Not necessarily.  The federal law requiring notification seems to apply to employees running checks on job applicants.  Maybe there are other restrictions, but I doubt they would apply in this case.