Fantasy failed inspection

[Eli_6]

Just read the thread. Can someone tell me what the poop cruise is/was?

[Organized Chaos]

10 minutes ago, Eli_6 said:

Just read the thread. Can someone tell me what the poop cruise is/was?

 

Back in 2013, there was a fire in the engine room aboard the Triumph and the ship lost power. They were stuck out in the gulf for five days, I think. Conditions onboard deteriorated and things got pretty nasty. Passengers were setting up makeshift camps in hallways and out on deck for fresh air. People had to use bags to "do their business" in. Those bags piled up here & there. You can google Triumph disaster if you want to read all about it. Since then, the Triumph has been refitted and is now the Sunrise.

[Eli_6]

6 minutes ago, Organized Chaos said:

 

Back in 2013, there was a fire in the engine room aboard the Triumph and the ship lost power. They were stuck out in the gulf for five days, I think. Conditions onboard deteriorated and things got pretty nasty. Passengers were setting up makeshift camps in hallways and out on deck for fresh air. People had to use bags to "do their business" in. Those bags piled up here & there. You can google Triumph disaster if you want to read all about it. Since then, the Triumph has been refitted and is now the Sunrise.

 

I remember that. My paralegal had friends on the ship.  I just didn't know it was called the poop cruise.  Thanks for the response!

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, Homosassa said:

Just an FYI for everyone.

 

The inspectors that perform the vessel sanitation (and also inspection the kitchens preparing food for the airlines) are not from the CDC or "local" health inspectors.

 

They are specialists in the Interstate Sanitation Program requirements and procedures and work for the US Food and Drug Administration. 

 

Other specialists that are part of this cadre perform inspections under the Interstate Shellfish Shippers program and State Cooperative Milk Safety Program.

Uh, no.  While not part of the CDC, the inspectors are from the USPH, working with the CDC.  USPH is mandated with preventing the introduction of infectious diseases into the US from vessels on foreign voyages.  US FDA only inspects US flag ships on "coastwise" cruises (no foreign ports).  When the NCL Pride of Aloha (Norwegian Sky) went under US flag, it was then inspected by FDA, not USPH, just like the POA is today.  However, when NCL sent the Aloha to do Fanning Island cruises, we reverted back to USPH, since we were now doing foreign voyages, and had the possibility of introducing disease into the US from overseas.  The inspectors for cruise ships do not have anything to do with airline food inspections.

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, mackenzie80 said:

I am friends with a crew member on board.  We met him on last 3 cruises and have kept in touch.  They said that this was some rogue kitchen staff trying to get a failing score thinking they would get days off if not cruising.

If this is true, those folks should really try to understand the industry they are working in, and what happens when a ship fails an inspection.  USPH will only stop a ship from loading passengers if there is an immediate danger to public health.  Even a couple of years ago, when the Silver Shadow had a failing score, and potentially hazardous food was found in crew passageways and crew cabins, and the USPH inspector took the unprecedented move of personally pouring bleach on the food to prevent its future use, the ship was not stopped from sailing.  I don't think I remember when a ship in the last 15 years was stopped from sailing, due to a failed USPH inspection.  A large number of items were of a technical nature (water leaking, open areas of bulkheads, improper lighting) or due to poor planning by management when spaces are converted (non-food prep surfaces in new sushi bar), so I don't think these "rogue" staff had much to do with the failure, though they could have contributed to the finding of "insufficient food safety knowledge".

[HappyInVan]

On 8/9/2019 at 7:33 PM, TomCruise48 said:

I wonder what authority the CDC inspector has to require immediate correction.  In this case, it should be assumed that this was not isolated to one crew member and one location.  All silverware at all locations on the ship should have been immediately collected and sent to be washed again.  Even if the inspector did not order this, the F&B manager should have taken this action, followed immediately by retraining of all F&B staff.

 

Where I live, land based restaurants can be immediately forced to close for serious violations.  I would consider this a serious violation.  Perhaps if the inspector had the authority to "close" the ship and disembark all guests, cruise lines would take health and sanitation issues more seriously.

+1. Many of the guests are elderly, and vulnerable to sickness. Not good. 

[jimbo5544]

2 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

+1. Many of the guests are elderly, and vulnerable to sickness. Not good. 

Curious as to who thought failing an inspection was a good thing.  

[Homosassa]

On 8/16/2019 at 8:18 PM, chengkp75 said:

Uh, no.  While not part of the CDC, the inspectors are from the USPH, working with the CDC.  USPH is mandated with preventing the introduction of infectious diseases into the US from vessels on foreign voyages.  US FDA only inspects US flag ships on "coastwise" cruises (no foreign ports).  When the NCL Pride of Aloha (Norwegian Sky) went under US flag, it was then inspected by FDA, not USPH, just like the POA is today.  However, when NCL sent the Aloha to do Fanning Island cruises, we reverted back to USPH, since we were now doing foreign voyages, and had the possibility of introducing disease into the US from overseas.  The inspectors for cruise ships do not have anything to do with airline food inspections.

Sorry, but you are now in my wheelhouse.

 

While, there may be uniformed USPHS officers doing some of the inspection, those officers are assigned to the Food and Drug Administration as their duty stations. There are also non- uniformed USPHS FDA employees involved in the program.

 

The placement of the FDA on an organization chart is convoluted and is based on historical precedents.  An example, while the  Agency appears on charts as part of Health and Human Services, funding is under appropriations for the USDA (Department of Agriculture) because when the original law was passed in the early 1900s, it was the then ag folks who enforced the law.

 

While it is true that the Vessel Sanitation Program has its authority under Title 42 of the Code of Regulations (basically public health), and not 21 CFR which are FDA regulations, like many programs for the government, the actual work for the program may be done by a different agency than the one given the authority by law.

 

In the case of the Vessel Sanitation Program, it is the FDA that performs the inspections (including Foreign trips when necessary).

 

Attached is the section from the FDA's Operations manual for their employees (uniformed PHS or not) performing the work.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/docs/vsp_operations_manual_2018-508.pdf

 

And yes, there can be cross over between the various programs depending on need and experience of the employee. I do personally know an FDA civilian investigator who has had road trips that involved doing both air line catering facilities and vessel inspections  on the same trip. He has also done vessel inspections outside the USA.

 

And then there is my husband who was a at one point was a Regional Shellfish Specialist who also was involved with shellfish programs in other countries (in his case Korea and Japan).

 

As one of the authors of the food code later in his career, he also organized the training of those people working managers of food operations (including cruise ship personnel) and was the one who signed off on their certifications.

 

I have told the story on Cruise Critic when he was recognized on a Azamara Journey cruise as the person who had ran the course and signed the certification of the food manager on board. He was bird dogged throughout the cruise for any comments or recommendation he had on the food service on the ship.

 

So while on the surface, it it is easy to assume that that PHS officer (or civilian employee) is somehow attached to the CDC, the actual duty station of said employee is the Food and Drug Administration.

 

 

 

 

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, Homosassa said:

Sorry, but you are now in my wheelhouse.

 

While, there may be uniformed USPHS officers doing some of the inspection, those officers are assigned to the Food and Drug Administration as their duty stations. There are also non- uniformed USPHS FDA employees involved in the program.

 

The placement of the FDA on an organization chart is convoluted and is based on historical precedents.  An example, while the  Agency appears on charts as part of Health and Human Services, funding is under appropriations for the USDA (Department of Agriculture) because when the original law was passed in the early 1900s, it was the then ag folks who enforced the law.

 

While it is true that the Vessel Sanitation Program has its authority under Title 42 of the Code of Regulations (basically public health), and not 21 CFR which are FDA regulations, like many programs for the government, the actual work for the program may be done by a different agency than the one given the authority by law.

 

In the case of the Vessel Sanitation Program, it is the FDA that performs the inspections (including Foreign trips when necessary).

 

Attached is the section from the FDA's Operations manual for their employees (uniformed PHS or not) performing the work.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/docs/vsp_operations_manual_2018-508.pdf

 

And yes, there can be cross over between the various programs depending on need and experience of the employee. I do personally know an FDA civilian investigator who has had road trips that involved doing both air line catering facilities and vessel inspections  on the same trip. He has also done vessel inspections outside the USA.

 

And then there is my husband who was a at one point was a Regional Shellfish Specialist who also was involved with shellfish programs in other countries (in his case Korea and Japan).

 

As one of the authors of the food code later in his career, he also organized the training of those people working managers of food operations (including cruise ship personnel) and was the one who signed off on their certifications.

 

I have told the story on Cruise Critic when he was recognized on a Azamara Journey cruise as the person who had ran the course and signed the certification of the food manager on board. He was bird dogged throughout the cruise for any comments or recommendation he had on the food service on the ship.

 

So while on the surface, it it is easy to assume that that PHS officer (or civilian employee) is somehow attached to the CDC, the actual duty station of said employee is the Food and Drug Administration.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Finally, a real expert!

[Shaded Lady]

3 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Thanks, Finally, a real expert!

 

Well, don't discount what Chengkp75 says- he's indeed an expert on many things onboard the cruiseship... it just appears, from her description, that Homosassa out-experts him in the area of onboard food inspections!

[chengkp75]

6 hours ago, Homosassa said:

So while on the surface, it it is easy to assume that that PHS officer (or civilian employee) is somehow attached to the CDC, the actual duty station of said employee is the Food and Drug Administration.

That will come as a surprise to the USPH inspectors I have worked with.  

 

"Under Section 361 of the Public Health Service Act, FDA may inspect U.S. flagged vessels engaged in interstate traffic to prevent the introduction and transmission of communicable diseases."  Note that this applies strictly to US flag vessels, which are the ones subject to FDA regulations.  It also restricts it to US flag vessels doing "interstate" traffic (coastwise).

 

The USPH are under the Surgeon General, who reports to the Assistant Secretary of HHS for Health.  The Commissioner of FDA reports directly to the Secretary of HHS.

 

The link you provide is for the CDC VSP, which is not for US flag vessels, and while derived from FDA regulations originally, are now under the CDC, who use USPH uniformed inspectors to complete the inspections.  "Every vessel that has a foreign itinerary and carries 13 or more passengers is subject to twice-yearly unannounced inspections and, when necessary, reinspection."  So, the CDC inspects vessels that are making foreign voyages, while FDA does domestic voyages.

 

I have personally worked under both the USPH and FDA inspection regimes, as I stated earlier, when the US flag Pride of Aloha went from USPH (as the foreign flag Norwegian Sky) to "coastwise" voyages (all within Hawaii) as the US flag Pride of Aloha, under FDA, and then under the USPH again when the US flag ship started Hawaiian voyages that included Fanning Island (becoming a foreign voyage).  When under the USPH, the inspectors were uniformed USPH officers.  While under the FDA, the inspectors were civilian FDA employees.  They made it very clear that they were completely different entities.

Edited August 18, 2019 by chengkp75

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, Shaded Lady said:

 

Well, don't discount what Chengkp75 says- he's indeed an expert on many things onboard the cruiseship... it just appears, from her description, that Homosassa out-experts him in the area of onboard food inspections!

 

 

Hmmm.

 

ChEng is an engineer. So, he should be an authority on mechanical and electrical issues. The ship's on-board managers have responsibility for the passengers decks. So, they're the ones to 'host' the food inspectors. 

 

The deck officers have the command responsibility. They decide when and where to go. They have the authority to order the arrest of a crew member or passenger, and the terms of detention. 

 

The experienced deck officers may have the clearest understanding of regulatory requirements and relationships (port, provincial and federal), as the buck stops with them. The senior deck officers should be privy to the basis for corporate decisions, that affect cost, income and investments.

 

[Shaded Lady]

7 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

Hmmm.

 

ChEng is an engineer. So, he should be an authority on mechanical and electrical issues. The ship's on-board managers have responsibility for the passengers decks. So, they're the ones to 'host' the food inspectors. 

 

The deck officers have the command responsibility. They decide when and where to go. They have the authority to order the arrest of a crew member or passenger, and the terms of detention. 

 

The experienced deck officers may have the clearest understanding of regulatory requirements and relationships (port, provincial and federal), as the buck stops with them. The senior deck officers should be privy to the basis for corporate decisions, that affect cost, income and investments.

 

 

OK.

(not sure I get your point but it appears you were disagreeing with my quote, so I'll happily let it stand!)

[chengkp75]

5 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

 

Hmmm.

 

ChEng is an engineer. So, he should be an authority on mechanical and electrical issues. The ship's on-board managers have responsibility for the passengers decks. So, they're the ones to 'host' the food inspectors. 

 

The deck officers have the command responsibility. They decide when and where to go. They have the authority to order the arrest of a crew member or passenger, and the terms of detention. 

 

The experienced deck officers may have the clearest understanding of regulatory requirements and relationships (port, provincial and federal), as the buck stops with them. The senior deck officers should be privy to the basis for corporate decisions, that affect cost, income and investments.

 

And as an engineer, the Staff Chief Engineer and Chief Engineer have responsibility for the maintenance of the equipment that is regulated by the USPH inspections, and under them the hotel engineers, the refrigeration engineers and the electricians.  The Staff Chief Engineer, in particular, is responsible for maintenance throughout the hotel (all areas outside the engine room, as well as being the supervisor of the First Engineer who is responsible for the engineering spaces.   So, the engineering officers have to be trained in USPH requirements, and the Deck officers (primarily the Chief Officer, Staff Captain, and Captain, as they are responsible for the Medical Department, the pools and recreational water facilities, and the Hazmat storage, all of which fall under the USPH inspection.

 

During the monthly USPH inspection done by ship's management, these deck and engine officers will attend along with the hotel supervisors.  And during a USPH inspection, the Staff Chief will be with the inspectors almost constantly to respond to questions about equipment status and maintenance, and the other deck and engine officers will  attend as needed.  At NCL, the Staff Captain is tasked with ensuring USPH compliance by all departments, and the Staff Chief is his deputy for this process.

 

 

[HappyInVan]

31 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 And during a USPH inspection, the Staff Chief will be with the inspectors almost constantly to respond to questions about equipment status and maintenance, and the other deck and engine officers will  attend as needed.  At NCL, the Staff Captain is tasked with ensuring USPH compliance by all departments, and the Staff Chief is his deputy for this process.

 

 

 

So, how much time do you actually spend with the inspectors?

 

Anyway, it's good to hear from the other side, the inspectors POV.

 

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

So, how much time do you actually spend with the inspectors?

 

Anyway, it's good to hear from the other side, the inspectors POV.

 

 

As I said, when I was Staff Chief, I spent the entire 8-10 hours of the inspection with one or another inspector, typically being called to various locations by various inspectors as needed.  Staff Captain, Hotel Director, all stayed with the inspectors the full time.  Department heads as their departments were inspected.  Received the same training from USPH and from NCL corporate USPH compliance as the Executive Chef or the Hotel Director.

Edited August 18, 2019 by chengkp75

[AmazedByCruising]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

So, how much time do you actually spend with the inspectors?

 

Anyway, it's good to hear from the other side, the inspectors POV.

 

 

 

Who else besides the Chief Engineer is responsible to have a failing washing machine fixed? To show that the pool has just the right amount of chlorine? The Cruise Director? Hotel Director? Is it the Captain? Of course the inspectors need to speak to the man who's directly in charge. 

 

[Organized Chaos]

30 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

Who else besides the Chief Engineer is responsible to have a failing washing machine fixed? To show that the pool has just the right amount of chlorine? The Cruise Director? Hotel Director? Is it the Captain? Of course the inspectors need to speak to the man who's directly in charge.

 

We're not just talking about broken equipment or pool maintenance. Do the inspectors confer with a chief engineer when they discover a crew member is recycling dirty silverware? When there's dirty bowls on a shelf that's designated "clean?" When there's a bunch of flies on the breakfast food? Because this thread is about the Fantasy's failed inspection and those are some of the infractions listed. This is devolving into a peeing contest to see who's the most important on board.

[modes]

It's funny how John Heald has swallowed his computer and not addressed that issue. BRILLIANT!!!!

[jbethel11]

1 minute ago, modes said:

It's funny how John Heald has swallowed his computer and not addressed that issue. BRILLIANT!!!!

Shows Carnival doesn't like to take heat.

[HappyInVan]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

As I said, when I was Staff Chief, I spent the entire 8-10 hours of the inspection with one or another inspector, typically being called to various locations by various inspectors as needed.  Staff Captain, Hotel Director, all stayed with the inspectors the full time.  Department heads as their departments were inspected.  Received the same training from USPH and from NCL corporate USPH compliance as the Executive Chef or the Hotel Director.

 

 

Yes, I'm sure that you were very interested in the inspection of the engine room, and fire safety systems. How much time do you recall spending with the food inspectors?

 

I'm following up on your memory of the FDA/CDC issue. When were you last Staff Chief?

Edited August 19, 2019 by HappyInVan

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, Organized Chaos said:

 

We're not just talking about broken equipment or pool maintenance. Do the inspectors confer with a chief engineer when they discover a crew member is recycling dirty silverware? When there's dirty bowls on a shelf that's designated "clean?" When there's a bunch of flies on the breakfast food? Because this thread is about the Fantasy's failed inspection and those are some of the infractions listed. This is devolving into a peeing contest to see who's the most important on board.

Not a contest at all.  Yes, some of the violations were about improper practices with silverware, and some about food handling practices and record keeping, but some were about the potable water condition (engineering), pool condition (deck and engineering), water leaking from overhead (ceiling)(engineering), undercounter refrigerator out of service (engineering), hot cabinet with slotted fasteners (engineering), improper rinse temperature on a warewashing machine (engineering), bulkhead under a back bar counter in disrepair (engineering), steam pipes in the galley soup station leaking (engineering), lighting (engineering).  USPH does not allow broken equipment to be in a food service area.  If it is a small item, it needs to be removed completely from the galley until repaired, or if it is a large, fixed item like an undercounter refrigerator, you will get at teh very least an observation that it is out of service (if there are not too many, they may just make a "zero point deduction" notation to get it repaired as soon as possible.  USPH covers more areas than simply food safety, they inspect potable water, pools, ventilation, lighting, construction of food areas, medical center, kids center, housekeeping, laundry, hazmat procedures, pest control.

4 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

 

Yes, I'm sure that you were very interested in the inspection of the engine room, and fire safety systems. How much time do you recall spending with the food inspectors?

 

I'm following up on your memory of the FDA/CDC issue. When were you last Staff Chief?

As noted above, there are many engineering violations noted on the Fantasy report, that had nothing to do with the engine room (the only ones were the potable water issues).  Engineering keeps all of the ship operating, not just the engine room.  We fix the machine that folds the sheets in the laundry, we fix the machine that rolls out pastry dough, or that presses dough into the little fluted tart cups.  We fix the stoves, blast chillers, tilting pans, rack ovens, hot and cold holding carts, steam tables, drink machines, bar guns and water dispensers throughout the galleys and food service venues.  We repair the AC all throughout the ship, the plumbing everywhere in the ship, including passenger cabins.  We repair the pool equipment.  All lighting.  Virtually every part of a USPH inspection has some engineering aspect to it, as the hotel staff are operational, not technically trained, and there are no Maytag repairmen (except the engineers) at sea.  If it breaks, or needs preventative maintenance, then engineering is called, no matter what it is.

 

The time frame for the FDA/CDC switch on the Aloha was in the 2004-2008 time frame.  I was Staff Chief during that time as well.  Both governmental agencies made it very clear that there was little love lost between the two, and each felt the other was not doing a good enough job.

 

USPH does not inspect the engine room (except for areas like potable water tanks, piping, and chlorination systems and records).  They have absolutely nothing to do with fire safety equipment.  As stated, I would spend the entire time with the USPH inspectors ("food inspectors" as you call them), inspecting throughout the hotel areas (front and back of house).  The Staff Chief is considered to be just as important as the Hotel Director in hotel operations, as the HD depends on the Staff Chief to keep all of his equipment in top condition.  Daily morning meeting of ship's management consisted of Captain, Hotel Director, Chief Engineer, and Staff Chief.

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Not a contest at all.  Yes, some of the violations were about improper practices with silverware, and some about food handling practices and record keeping, but some were about the potable water condition (engineering), pool condition (deck and engineering), water leaking from overhead (ceiling)(engineering), undercounter refrigerator out of service (engineering), hot cabinet with slotted fasteners (engineering), improper rinse temperature on a warewashing machine (engineering), bulkhead under a back bar counter in disrepair (engineering), steam pipes in the galley soup station leaking (engineering), lighting (engineering).  USPH does not allow broken equipment to be in a food service area.  If it is a small item, it needs to be removed completely from the galley until repaired, or if it is a large, fixed item like an undercounter refrigerator, you will get at teh very least an observation that it is out of service (if there are not too many, they may just make a "zero point deduction" notation to get it repaired as soon as possible.  USPH covers more areas than simply food safety, they inspect potable water, pools, ventilation, lighting, construction of food areas, medical center, kids center, housekeeping, laundry, hazmat procedures, pest control.

As noted above, there are many engineering violations noted on the Fantasy report, that had nothing to do with the engine room (the only ones were the potable water issues).  Engineering keeps all of the ship operating, not just the engine room.  We fix the machine that folds the sheets in the laundry, we fix the machine that rolls out pastry dough, or that presses dough into the little fluted tart cups.  We fix the stoves, blast chillers, tilting pans, rack ovens, hot and cold holding carts, steam tables, drink machines, bar guns and water dispensers throughout the galleys and food service venues.  We repair the AC all throughout the ship, the plumbing everywhere in the ship, including passenger cabins.  We repair the pool equipment.  All lighting.  Virtually every part of a USPH inspection has some engineering aspect to it, as the hotel staff are operational, not technically trained, and there are no Maytag repairmen (except the engineers) at sea.  If it breaks, or needs preventative maintenance, then engineering is called, no matter what it is.

 

The time frame for the FDA/CDC switch on the Aloha was in the 2004-2008 time frame.  I was Staff Chief during that time as well.  Both governmental agencies made it very clear that there was little love lost between the two, and each felt the other was not doing a good enough job.

 

USPH does not inspect the engine room (except for areas like potable water tanks, piping, and chlorination systems and records).  They have absolutely nothing to do with fire safety equipment.  As stated, I would spend the entire time with the USPH inspectors ("food inspectors" as you call them), inspecting throughout the hotel areas (front and back of house).  The Staff Chief is considered to be just as important as the Hotel Director in hotel operations, as the HD depends on the Staff Chief to keep all of his equipment in top condition.  Daily morning meeting of ship's management consisted of Captain, Hotel Director, Chief Engineer, and Staff Chief.

And we all thank you and your colleagues for all the work you do to make our cruises wonderful. But, it is still the stewards and waiters who get out tips. LOL

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

And we all thank you and your colleagues for all the work you do to make our cruises wonderful. But, it is still the stewards and waiters who get out tips. LOL

And they are welcome to them, for putting the smiling face on the operation.  The only time my guys got some tips were the few occasions where someone dropped jewelry down the sink drain, and the plumbers took the trap apart and got it back.

[HappyInVan]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The time frame for the FDA/CDC switch on the Aloha was in the 2004-2008 time frame.  I was Staff Chief during that time as well.  Both governmental agencies made it very clear that there was little love lost between the two, and each felt the other was not doing a good enough job.

 

 

2004-2008?

 

That's a long time ago.