Zaandam and Rotterdam Situation (merged topics starting March 22, 2020)

[capriccio]

1 hour ago, mamaofami said:

So if other countries do the wrong thing, America should follow. Shame on Florida for not giving these people help. I’ll never cruise from Ft. Lauderdale again.

 

Good way to punish millions of people who had nothing to do with the decision making!

[rj42]

The problem so much isn't letting them off the ship. The problem is that if you have infected people put on commercial airlines, then you spread Covid everywhere--that's what happened to the passengers of the Costa ship, who were dispersed at Atlanta and many of the passengers without symptoms tested positive when home, after probably infecting many others in the airport and planes and going to home (that's how the Seattle outbreak started). I also remembered the movie "Outbreak", where a sneeze or cough on an airplane from an infected person launched a spread of a deadly virus. So if you have sick passengers and crew, you pretty much have to do the same mandatory quarantine and isolation that the other two Princess ships did, meaning more US military and health system resources taken up for a foreign ship that departed after the Princess outbreak (send the bill to Orlando, and use the Konigsdam as a hospital ship until they pay it). 

 

It's just sad, because the Zaandam is my favorite HAL ship, one of the few with a real library, spacious promenade, cool musical memorabilia, and none of the Lincoln Center/Billboard corporate blandness of the bigger ships. 

[conwakr]

1 hour ago, Sunshine3601 said:

I am still struggling with majority of people on this post think Florida is responsible and has to accept the Zaandam ship.    Florida is dealing with enough problems and the fact that other ships keeping showing up with covid passengers is not helping.     There are other ports such as Galveston that can handle this disembarkment and sending the passengers home to their appropriate countries.   

I think people are underestimating the value of 8 billion dollars in revenue to the state of Florida.  While many at the corporate offices are frantically working to keep their crew and passengers safe there is the likelihood that equally as many are working on position papers on how to move business out of Florida if they aren't allowed to tie up.  It stinks, but Florida is a gauntlet right now even more so than Panama,  Unfortunately they are dealing with ships full of people, human beings, and not oil tankers or cargo ships. 

[volk904]

Florida and Ft Lauderdale need to do the moral right thing and let those passengers off. Ft Lauderdale was the intended Distination. The US is not a country that turns it back on those in need.  There is no reason the passengers cannot be out is gloves and respirators and moved to quarantine safely.   I am betting Carnival can find a empty hotel to put them up in. All of that said I think a case could be made to take the Zaandam to Port C.  The Orlando hospitals might have better capability and you possible Medivac some out of Patrick AFB to hospitals around the country.   
 

 

 

[babydaryl24]

2 hours ago, Sunshine3601 said:

I am still struggling with majority of people on this post think Florida is responsible and has to accept the Zaandam ship.    Florida is dealing with enough problems and the fact that other ships keeping showing up with covid passengers is not helping.     There are other ports such as Galveston that can handle this disembarkment and sending the passengers home to their appropriate countries.    Do we have any idea how many US passengers remain on the Zaandam?    What port is accepting Rotterdam that is hopefully without any covid patients?    Excuse me, but I understand that we need to take care of human soles but does it have to be florida to handle?     Time to find another plan with least amount of resistance. 

Yeah. Well.. TX has already helped multiple times....... especially San Antonio... And they weren't indignant about it..... and we don't make 1/4th of the cruise money Florida does....

 

Maybe just humane is humane.

 

[arabrab]

 As of Tuesday, according to Carnival’s chief maritime officer William Burke, there were “a couple” passengers on Rotterdam with flu-like symptoms. Including crew, there are 1,048 people on Zaandam and 1,442 on Rotterdam. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2020/03/31/zaandam-cruise-ship-still-has-no-guaranteed-port-its-sick-passengers-florida-officials-balk/?itid=sf_travel

[Nymich]

2 hours ago, JVilleGal said:

Wait so Florida benefits to the tune of Billions of Dollars from the cruise lines and now they don’t want to do the Right thing and save people turned away from every port they have attempted to dock  at for over 2 weeks. While 4 passengers have died waiting for Any humanitarian aid? 
Do I understand that correctly? Just wanted to make sure.... 

They were nowhere near Florida when they passed.  Let's not sensationalize an already tough situation.

[arabrab]

HAL acknowledging that "a couple" of folks on Rotterdam have flu-type symptoms is the reason I'd like to see a plan where all passengers are quarantined.  I'd also like to see those that need hospitalization get it promptly even if they have to be medevac'd over to Orlando or some other less hard hit area. 

 

In the long run, some things need to change with the cruise industry. That time is not now. 

[Aj101]

Lots of info here:

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/03/31/holland-america-docking-plan-coronavirus-infected-ship-florida/5095406002/

[tgsul09]

Would the Houston cruise port be an option?  Princess used it for a few years.  The port is close to Hobby Airport for the charter flights.  The local hospitals will only be dealing with those that need immediate attention as we have seen with the Diamond Princess and Grand Princess.

[thyme2go]

Just wondering..........can a condition be made that HAL pays the port charge for the opportunity to transfer people to a land based location in the spirit of a land/cruise combination trip?   All land based services --- transfer, lodging, food, medical costs, quarantine costs and further repatriation (when Covid is proven negative in guests and crew)..........EVERYTHING would be ARRANGED AND PAID FOR BY HAL.   On the humanitarian side......this would get all guests and crew off both ships while being isolated, quarantined as well as treated and HAL would be doing all the negotiating with the final approval by the Port in this case FLL.    It seems that part of the problem is that HAL is no longer responsible once they discharge guests during a time of crisis.........this would keep them in the game until people are as 'whole' as possible.    Am I making sense?   Not sure I'm describing this clearly other than to say..........the cruise is now a Land/Cruise combo compliments of HAL.   I wish it was a pleasure combo, but this addresses a lot of the needs and puts the responsibility on HAL to "do the right thing"............. 

[conwakr]

2 hours ago, rj42 said:

The problem so much isn't letting them off the ship. The problem is that if you have infected people put on commercial airlines, then you spread Covid everywhere--that's what happened to the passengers of the Costa ship, who were dispersed at Atlanta and many of the passengers without symptoms tested positive when home, after probably infecting many others in the airport and planes and going to home (that's how the Seattle outbreak started). 

I would bet my last buck that infected people are getting on planes every single day.  We are so far passed it unfortunately as we still have domestic and international flights coming and going everyday.  For the most part the protocol in the US has been to test symptoms people as confirmation that they have Covid vs. the flu and to establish baselines for treatment. The "common" statement around plane travel is that the number of travelers in the planes is so much lower than normal that distancing has been a fairly easy thing to manage.  The people who may not be infected coming off that ship are probably safer getting on the first plan especially if they can get to their  homes and self quarantine for another week or however long they have added to their ship quarantine. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by conwakr

[thyme2go]

8 minutes ago, capriccio said:

 

 

 

 

The Port Everglades Zaandam update of yesterday - before today's meeting - does include some expectations of HAL including PPE.  Of course we have no idea what changes (additions/modifications/deletions) might be under consideration now.  (https://www.porteverglades.net/zaandam-update/)

 

What are the Unified Command's requirements that must be addressed in any plan submitted by a cruise line before a cruise ship is allowed to enter Port Everglades?

The Unified Command has developed a list of conditions that would need to be addressed in any Plan submitted by a cruise line. They include:   Full compliance with all regulatory requirements of U.S. Coast Guard, U.S. Customs and Border Protection as well as the U.S. Centers Disease Control and Prevention. All illnesses, conditions, medical concerns and or items of concern must be accurately disclosed and documented. Any last-minute disclosures when the vessel is in transit to the berth or dockside will suspend all operations until the necessary fact finding is completed to the satisfaction of those in the Unified Command. The cruise line, at its expense, will provide all Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) to all responders.  Temperature readings are for all disembarking crew and passengers before U.S. Customs and Border Protection processing. The cruise line, at its expense shall secure and arrange for private ambulatory transport.  The cruise line shall make all arrangements for care with the medical facilities.   To minimize exposure to shore staff, responders and the facility, as well as expedite transport by shuttle or bus or charter aircraft, passengers will leave the vessel with one personal item that holds only essential items.  The cruise line, at its expense, will sanitize all other luggage in a location provided by the receiving facility and arrange for reunification of the luggage as soon as possible.   The cruise line, at its expense, shall arrange for the disposal of all medical and agricultural waste in accordance with federal regulations.  To prevent cross contamination from spreading between the passengers, crew and into the local community, the cruise line will be required to sanitize the receiving facility, which may also include, but is not limited to, any equipment used by first responders, the facility, exposed equipment used by contractors and any hired equipment used for transportation of passengers. No less than 24 hours in advance of the start of debarkation, the cruise line will present a security plan for review and approval  to the Unified Command that demonstrates how passengers will debark orderly, safely and in compliance with current health advisories (i.e. social distancing). Failure to maintain good order may result in an immediate suspension of the debarkation until the situation is under control. All debarking passengers and crew must have a final, verifiable, travel itinerary prior to being allowed to debark the vessel.

I was not aware of this........thanks for posting.

[capriccio]

3 minutes ago, conwakr said:

I would bet my last buck that infected people are getting on planes every single day.

 

Today on NPR the CDC Director, Dr. Robert Redfield, actually gave some sobering statistics regarding asymptomatic patients:

 

One of the [pieces of] information that we have pretty much confirmed now is that a significant number of individuals that are infected actually remain asymptomatic. That may be as many as 25%. That's important, because now you have individuals that may not have any symptoms that can contribute to transmission, and we have learned that in fact they do contribute to transmission.

 

And finally, of those of us that get symptomatic, it appears that we're shedding significant virus in our oropharyngeal compartment, probably up to 48 hours before we show symptoms. This helps explain how rapidly this virus continues to spread across the country, because we have asymptomatic transmitters and we have individuals who are transmitting 48 hours before they become symptomatic.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/31/824155179/cdc-director-on-models-for-the-months-to-come-this-virus-is-going-to-be-with-us

[capriccio]

19 minutes ago, conwakr said:

The people who may not be infected coming off that ship are probably safer getting on the first plan especially if they can get to their  homes and self quarantine for another week or however long they have added to their ship quarantine. 

 

The self quarantine requirement restarts following transportation home because the disembarking passengers could be exposed to an asymptomatic or symptomatic patient while en route home.

[cdwise]

1 hour ago, tgsul09 said:

Would the Houston cruise port be an option?  Princess used it for a few years.  The port is close to Hobby Airport for the charter flights.  The local hospitals will only be dealing with those that need immediate attention as we have seen with the Diamond Princess and Grand Princess.

Cruise port is in Galveston not Houston and that port has been dicussed miltiple times.  Houston's ports are commercial and further up the ship channel. Unlike Florida the island has been on lock down since before spring break. Had the ship originally been bound there I expect they would have allowed it to dock with protocols agreed upon when the ships cleared the canal. After all Texas provided quarantine facilities for those evacuated from Wuhan China and Princess Cruise ships. Franky I wouldn't be surprised if folks leaving the Holland ships don't end up doing quarantine in Texas as well. I agree with you about local hospitals wherever they disembark will deal with few of the passengers and crew. I also expect just like the other ships people will be sent to their destinations on charters not regular commercial flights. 

 

As for whether HAL should  have cancelled the cruise at the time March 7 China and a few places in Asia had the only known outbreaks. So I'm not going to blame HAL or the people who boarded for going on the cruise. In the intervening time things have changed considerably. Playing the blame game does nobody any good, people make decisions on the basis of what was known at the time and at that time almost all the available info was coming out of China. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by cdwise
Fix iOS auto-correct

[rabin1]

All day long Boward Commisioners, have been discussing letting the two HAL ships dock in FTL. The mayor and the governor does not want them because there are so many sick. The Sheriff and the Coast Guard said it had to be a Unified Command for permission to dock. I am not sure what that means.

 

I have an idea that it seems no one of these guys has thought of. Let them dock, have HAL send their medical people go on board not Broward County. The healthy people get off after temperture checks etc and get to the go home. The serious ill and the 4 dead off immediatley The rest stay on board and self isolate for 14 days untill all is good with them. 

 

I originally was against them docking cause I live here and FTL and Miami has the highest number of cases in the state BUT

bottom line is these are sick people and they need help and we are the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, somehow all these geniuses need to get a plan and help these poor souls

 

GOD BLESS EVERYEONE STILL ON SHIPS AND HOPE YOU MAKE IT HOME SAFE AND SOUND

Kathy

 

PS This will probably all start again when Coral Princess tries to dock in FTL Friday

[npcl]

1 hour ago, cdwise said:

Cruise port is in Galveston not Houston and that port has been dicussed miltiple times.  Houston's ports are commercial and further up the ship channel. Unlike Florida the island has been on lock down since before spring break. Had the ship originally been bound there I expect they would have allowed it to dock with protocols agreed upon when the ships cleared the canal. After all Texas provided quarantine facilities for those evacuated from Wuhan China and Princess Cruise ships. Franky I wouldn't be surprised if folks leaving the Holland ships don't end up doing quarantine in Texas as well. I agree with you about local hospitals wherever they disembark will deal with few of the passengers and crew. I also expect just like the other ships people will be sent to their destinations on charters not regular commercial flights. 

 

As for whether HAL should  have cancelled the cruise at the time March 7 China and a few places in Asia had the only known outbreaks. So I'm not going to blame HAL or the people who boarded for going on the cruise. In the intervening time things have changed considerably. Playing the blame game does nobody any good, people make decisions on the basis of what was known at the time and at that time almost all the available info was coming out of China. 

Princess used the Houston Cruise port (Bayport), not the Galveston one.  They pulled out because of too many problems with fog and when the subsidy from Houston to use it ran out. So it is not being used for cruise ships at this time. It is between La Porte and Kemah. I believe that the parking lot is used to hold new cars being shipped into the state.

Edited April 1, 2020 by npcl

[Cruzaholic41]

3 minutes ago, npcl said:

Princess used the Houston Cruise port, not the Galveston one.  They pulled out because of too many problems with fog so it is not being used for cruise ships at this time.

Yep. I think NCL used that port as well. Too bad because I like that terminal much better than Galveston. It’s much more convenient to Bush airport. That empty cruise terminal would actually make a good quarantine zone / makeshift medical facility. 

[npcl]

1 hour ago, conwakr said:

I would bet my last buck that infected people are getting on planes every single day.  We are so far passed it unfortunately as we still have domestic and international flights coming and going everyday.  For the most part the protocol in the US has been to test symptoms people as confirmation that they have Covid vs. the flu and to establish baselines for treatment. The "common" statement around plane travel is that the number of travelers in the planes is so much lower than normal that distancing has been a fairly easy thing to manage.  The people who may not be infected coming off that ship are probably safer getting on the first plan especially if they can get to their  homes and self quarantine for another week or however long they have added to their ship quarantine. 

While there are certainly some infected people getting on planes, the difference is that they know that there are infected people on the HAL ships.  To put this into perspective, by the time the Diamond had the same number of infected showing symptoms as on the Zaandam they were on day 10 of the quarantine.  The Diamond ended up with over 700 infected by the time they tested everyone at the end of quarantine (around 25%).  Since the Zaandam had more infected crew and spent less time with the passengers isolated in individual cabins.  So it certainly could be expected that if they did test everyone there would be a lot more positive than just those showing symptoms.

 

There are now antibody blood tests that can be run quickly that will show if someone has been infected, earlier than with the swab tests.  Get them and test everybody.  Get the healthy out of there.  Keep those infected but with mild or asymptomatic on the ship.  Get the seriously ill appropriate treatment.

[tgsul09]

2 hours ago, cdwise said:

Cruise port is in Galveston not Houston and that port has been dicussed miltiple times.  Houston's ports are commercial and further up the ship channel. Unlike Florida the island has been on lock down since before spring break. Had the ship originally been bound there I expect they would have allowed it to dock with protocols agreed upon when the ships cleared the canal. After all Texas provided quarantine facilities for those evacuated from Wuhan China and Princess Cruise ships. Franky I wouldn't be surprised if folks leaving the Holland ships don't end up doing quarantine in Texas as well. I agree with you about local hospitals wherever they disembark will deal with few of the passengers and crew. I also expect just like the other ships people will be sent to their destinations on charters not regular commercial flights. 

 

As for whether HAL should  have cancelled the cruise at the time March 7 China and a few places in Asia had the only known outbreaks. So I'm not going to blame HAL or the people who boarded for going on the cruise. In the intervening time things have changed considerably. Playing the blame game does nobody any good, people make decisions on the basis of what was known at the time and at that time almost all the available info was coming out of China. 

There was a Houston Cruise terminal for several years that only Princess and Norwegian used seasonally.  It has not been in operation since 2016 or possibly 2015.  This is not the same terminal or port as a Galveston.  To my knowledge, it is not in use.

[firefly333]

3 hours ago, npcl said:

Princess used the Houston Cruise port (Bayport), not the Galveston one.  They pulled out because of too many problems with fog and when the subsidy from Houston to use it ran out. So it is not being used for cruise ships at this time. It is between La Porte and Kemah. I believe that the parking lot is used to hold new cars being shipped into the state.

Houston port was a build it and they will come that didnt work out.

 

I do remember princess sailing from Galveston, perhaps before your time? and sure I cruised out of Galveston. I'm thinking princess stopped cruising out of Galveston maybe 15 years ago? I don't have the date of my last cruise on princess out of Galveston.. but I am sure it happened. It was my first cruise and who forgets their first cruise. It was before the houston port was even built.

 

I hope someone takes these folks as soon as possible. I will be following along and wishing them well. I dont know which port allows them in, but there are Americans onboard who have to be allowed to get home, and quit the finger pointing and get it done.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by firefly333

[Krazy Kruizers]

5 hours ago, rabin1 said:

All day long Boward Commisioners, have been discussing letting the two HAL ships dock in FTL. The mayor and the governor does not want them because there are so many sick. The Sheriff and the Coast Guard said it had to be a Unified Command for permission to dock. I am not sure what that means.

 

I have an idea that it seems no one of these guys has thought of. Let them dock, have HAL send their medical people go on board not Broward County. The healthy people get off after temperture checks etc and get to the go home. The serious ill and the 4 dead off immediatley The rest stay on board and self isolate for 14 days untill all is good with them. 

 

I originally was against them docking cause I live here and FTL and Miami has the highest number of cases in the state BUT

bottom line is these are sick people and they need help and we are the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, somehow all these geniuses need to get a plan and help these poor souls

 

GOD BLESS EVERYEONE STILL ON SHIPS AND HOPE YOU MAKE IT HOME SAFE AND SOUND

Kathy

 

PS This will probably all start again when Coral Princess tries to dock in FTL Friday

 

Very well said -- good thoughts.

[charmed1959]

For the not visibly sick people, Port Everglades would work, in they could get the 49 Floridians into cars, the 250 other American’s onto commercial flights, and the thousand foreign passengers on charters home.  It’s the sick I worry about the most coming into south Florida.  Maybe they could air ambulance the very sick to other areas of the state with available capacity?  With all but essential services shut down in that part of the state I’m not sure there is a commercial option for those that just need a place to lay low and get over this.  
 

Unlike the Grand Princess, it sounds like they are discussing putting them at a cruise terminal, rather than disembarking them into a parking lot.  After the disembarkation are they going to shutter that terminal until they disinfect it?  I guess they don’t need it for awhile.

[Reader0108598]

12 minutes ago, charmed1959 said:

For the not visibly sick people, Port Everglades would work, in they could get the 49 Floridians into cars, the 250 other American’s onto commercial flights, and the thousand foreign passengers on charters home.  It’s the sick I worry about the most coming into south Florida.  Maybe they could air ambulance the very sick to other areas of the state with available capacity?  With all but essential services shut down in that part of the state I’m not sure there is a commercial option for those that just need a place to lay low and get over this.  
 

Unlike the Grand Princess, it sounds like they are discussing putting them at a cruise terminal, rather than disembarking them into a parking lot.  After the disembarkation are they going to shutter that terminal until they disinfect it?  I guess they don’t need it for awhile.

I understand what you are saying but just because you don't appear or feel sick,does not mean you are not. You can still spread it!. I know we need to help these people but I understand Florida.Easy for me to talk from my comfortable home ! I wish all the best of luck! 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Reader0108598