HAL and Seabourn are losing avid cruisers because of refunds

[shank63]

So if HAL and Seabourn are losing avid customers, where are they going?  Another cruise line?  Other travel alternatives?  Sheltered in?

[SilvertoGold]

39 minutes ago, shank63 said:

So if HAL and Seabourn are losing avid customers, where are they going?  Another cruise line?  Other travel alternatives?  Sheltered in?

 

Spending time reading other lines' websites?  Seeing which lines might work better for them?

An avid cruiser wants to continue cruising and will find a way when cruising restarts.  Some will return to the lines they normally sail, others will look elsewhere.  It will all even out.

[Cap-n Andy]

54 minutes ago, shank63 said:

So if HAL and Seabourn are losing avid customers, where are they going?  Another cruise line?  Other travel alternatives?  Sheltered in?

Until there is a safe and effective Covid-19 vaccine and enough people get it to create herd immunity, I am sheltering in. When I start traveling again, I will evaluate various cruise lines and tour companies. There are many possibilities.

 

I am a fan of Holland America but I am not married to it.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Cap-n Andy

[nyceve]

18 hours ago, KAKcruiser said:

I think that it is a good idea to write about how upsetting it is not to receive our refunds.  Maybe HAL will pay attention if enough people complain.  I wouldn't mind waiting as much if we were given some kind of timeline as to when to expect payment.   I submitted the paperwork seven weeks ago and have heard nothing from HAL.  

 

 

I am disputing with cc compnay. You get provisional refund within days.  There may be a 120 day deadline, so folks ought to do this sooner rather than later.

 

I agree the silence is what is most unnerving.  It's a text book case of how a corporation should NOT react to a crisis.  Shame on HAL.

[kaiiak]

We submitted our online form with HAL on 3/20 for our 4/5 cruise that was canceled by HAL. Our TA followed up with HAL on 4/1 confirming the cancellation. My husband followed up with the TA yesterday and our TA said that he is now hearing 90-180 turn around for refunds from HAL and 90 days for our insurance from Allianz to be refunded.  I don't think we can dispute with our CC because unfortunately we paid with our VISA Debit card tied to our checking account. I know, I know, bad choice. So I guess we will have to wait. 

[Boatdrill]

On 5/5/2020 at 4:25 PM, cashmeremypuppydog said:

 

The Canadians!😎

 

I remember you. Didn't you post complaints from a crew member who was on a HAL ship ? Was it the Zaandam when she headed to north to Panama ?  

[Boatdrill]

On 5/5/2020 at 2:17 PM, wesport said:

This is just my opinion .... I think they are losing many long time high spending cruisers.  

Maybe you could consider adding "just my opinion" to the title of the thread.     

[rafinmd]

11 hours ago, Boatdrill said:

I remember you. Didn't you post complaints from a crew member who was on a HAL ship ? Was it the Zaandam when she headed to north to Panama ?  

It was the Rotterdam heading South to help out the Zaandam.  Unfortunately, HAL (and Princess as well) is spending much of our money (not actually mine as most of my unrefunded bills are from Cunard) getting the crews she claims to care so much about back to their homes. 

 

Roy

Edited May 7, 2020 by rafinmd

[DFD1]

When one thinks of the enormous cost of running 8 or 10 cruise ships half way around the world..or further...with no paying passengers....in order to get crew back to their homes....it's a staggering amount of money.

 

No only is HAL doing this, but if you look at the mapping sites, there are dozens of CCL ships from every brand doing the same things. There are more than a dozen cruise ships at anchor at the moment in Manila waiting for days to disembark crew... along and another dozen or more on the way.

 

No wonder there are no refunds.

Edited May 7, 2020 by DFD1

[LMaxwell]

On 5/6/2020 at 10:40 AM, RocketMan275 said:

So, what is your solution? 

The cruise lines are facing an extreme situation and appear to be doing the best they can.

It is not on guests waiting for refunds to propose solutions. 

 

The cruise lines are facing an extreme situation; no debate there. 

 

They do not appear to be doing the best they can and that is the complaint of many; not being provided timely updates and having expectations set. That's not an unreasonable ask of a consumer. 

[RocketMan275]

6 minutes ago, LMaxwell said:

It is not on guests waiting for refunds to propose solutions. 

 

The cruise lines are facing an extreme situation; no debate there. 

 

They do not appear to be doing the best they can and that is the complaint of many; not being provided timely updates and having expectations set. That's not an unreasonable ask of a consumer. 

If you admit that the cruise lines are in an "extreme situation", then it the cruise lines actions cannot be considered unreasonable.

[LMaxwell]

5 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

If you admit that the cruise lines are in an "extreme situation", then it the cruise lines actions cannot be considered unreasonable.

I haven't said the cruise line actions are or are not reasonable. 

 

I am saying that people asking for updates, clear communication they can rely on from executives is completely warranted and not unreasonable whatsoever.  To be dealt with honestly and directly should be a standard, not an exception. 

[awhcruiser]

On 5/5/2020 at 3:28 PM, CruiserBruce said:

Haven't we beat this to death already, with the several open threads on the topic?

Exactly.  Why start another one?

[iancal]

Cruise line actions may or may not be unreasonable.  That would not be my problem.  It is theirs.

 

My problem would be that waiting 90-120 days or more for a refund on a cruise that the cruise line cancelled is, IMHO, quite unreasonable.  Most especially if there was zero communication or conflicting payment commitments.

 

I would take the very reasonable approach of filing a dispute with my credit card provider.

[Seasick Sailor]

39 minutes ago, awhcruiser said:

Exactly.  Why start another one?

 

Perhaps our fine Moderator will combine them all. Xx

[crusinbanjo]

On 5/6/2020 at 10:53 AM, iancal said:

If possible, the credit card dispute route without delay.

 

No one I know wants to be on the unsecured creditor list of any cruise line or stuck holding a FCC that they either cannot use or do not want to use given the available itineraries, the time frames, or the on board environment.  Or the unspent portion of a FCC for that matter.

 

 

IF HAL were to go bankrupt, and you become an unsecured creditor, you will be so far down the line that there will be nothing left LONG before they get to you.  HAL is likely in a cash preservation mode right now, and they are going to hold on to every penny for as long as they can IMHO to avoid a cash crunch.

Hopefully I am totally wrong, that does not happen and the refunds come along in a timely manor.   Mrs Banjo and I are not scheduled to cruise again until Jan 21, just by coincidence, but our travel plans for the summer and fall have already been canceled by the tour operators.  We are cautiously optimistic about January.

[RocketMan275]

3 hours ago, LMaxwell said:

I haven't said the cruise line actions are or are not reasonable. 

 

I am saying that people asking for updates, clear communication they can rely on from executives is completely warranted and not unreasonable whatsoever.  To be dealt with honestly and directly should be a standard, not an exception. 

Asking isn't unreasonable.  Expecting quick answers is unreasonable considering the issues facing the cruise lines.

[LMaxwell]

15 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

 Expecting quick answers

 

It's been almost 2 months since cruise lines really went into "Crisis mode".  No one has asked for quick answers.  They are asking to be dealt with honestly and directly.  That's significantly different.

 

The answer is simple:

these companies do not have the cash to refund customers without A: Loans and B: New Deposits.  This is abundantly clear to anyone that has read their public SEC filings and has some basic business acument, which may be some fanatics here but isn't the general mass public. To them the messaging is "See you in 90 days. Maybe. lol".  Not exactly honest, open, and direct. 

 

 

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, LMaxwell said:

 

It's been almost 2 months since cruise lines really went into "Crisis mode".  No one has asked for quick answers.  They are asking to be dealt with honestly and directly.  That's significantly different.

 

The answer is simple:

these companies do not have the cash to refund customers without A: Loans and B: New Deposits.  This is abundantly clear to anyone that has read their public SEC filings and has some basic business acument, which may be some fanatics here but isn't the general mass public. To them the messaging is "See you in 90 days. Maybe. lol".  Not exactly honest, open, and direct. 

 

 

So, exactly what should the cruise lines say, in an attempt to be honest, open, and direct, that would improve the situation?  Should the cruise lines openly admit that they are having a cash flow problem?  Would that help or would it cause a panic that would imperil their loans and new deposits?

[LMaxwell]

Just now, RocketMan275 said:

So, exactly what should the cruise lines say, in an attempt to be honest, open, and direct, that would improve the situation?  Should the cruise lines openly admit that they are having a cash flow problem?  Would that help or would it cause a panic that would imperil their loans and new deposits?

They should come up with a timeline of staggered refunds.  March cancellations, refunds by week 20.  April cancellations, refunds by week 24, May cancellations, refunds by week 28, etc...let people know "We are processing approximately xxxxx refunds per day, week, month" etc.  A little communication and transparency goes a long way to calming customers and engendering good will.  To simply say nothing isn't cutting it. 

 

 

[RocketMan275]

3 minutes ago, LMaxwell said:

They should come up with a timeline of staggered refunds.  March cancellations, refunds by week 20.  April cancellations, refunds by week 24, May cancellations, refunds by week 28, etc...let people know "We are processing approximately xxxxx refunds per day, week, month" etc.  A little communication and transparency goes a long way to calming customers and engendering good will.  To simply say nothing isn't cutting it. 

That sounds good but this isn't a perfect world.  It is almost impossible to develop those timelines and even more difficult to stick with them.  Such a development would require the cruise lines to make an accurate predictions of their cash flow, expenses, and cash available for refunds.  The best they can hope for is the prioritization of a queue of refunds and to pay those refunds as cash becomes available.  Which is what they are doing.  Refunds are a secondary priority compared to the need to keep the cruise lines afloat.  A failure of the cruise lines is in no one's best interest since that would mean few, if any, refunds.

 

A secondary issue is this.  Your proposal would require a huge commitment of personnel to develop those timelines and to manage the refund process.  That commitment would require the commitment of financial resources and further delay the process of providing refunds.

 

The bottom line is this:  it is unrealistic to expect the cruise lines to be able to predict when cash will become available.  Therefore, they cannot implement your solutions.  Even if the cruise lines did as you propose, can you imagine the response if the cruise line were to fail to meet those commitments to specific dates?

[LMaxwell]

15 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

 

The bottom line is this:  it is unrealistic to expect the cruise lines to be able to predict when cash will become available.  

 

It is unrealistic to expect cruise lines to be able to predict when they will resume operations.  However, they have received money to sustain operations and continue selling deposits.  You're completely missing the point. This isn't about being in or how to get out of a difficult situation, it's about NOT treating your customers out of the "Mushroom Management" chapter of the Book of Business. 

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, LMaxwell said:

 

It is unrealistic to expect cruise lines to be able to predict when they will resume operations.  However, they have received money to sustain operations and continue selling deposits.  You're completely missing the point. This isn't about being in or how to get out of a difficult situation, it's about NOT treating your customers out of the "Mushroom Management" chapter of the Book of Business. 

Your solution is unrealistic and beyond the ability of the cruise lines to deliver.  

Of course, they are trying to get back into operation which is in the interest of all of us.

[funintehsun]

I don't understand some of the posts in this thread.  Are some seriously arguing in FAVOR of misleading customers and keeping them in the dark?   It is precisely for that reason that this thread was created.  Several long term cruisers feel betrayed by the way HAL has handled this and will consider other travel options in the future.  Furthermore, they will tell their friends about it.  That's what happened with me.  When I told my non-cruising coworkers that I had to dispute the charge, the response was that it was terrible that the line was keeping my money to pay their bills.

 

IMO, the reason HAL isn't communicating timelines and progress is because they never had any intention of sending refunds out until the 60 days passed.  Which means that the "up-to" part of the 60 days statement was a lie. No one was getting a refund  before 60 days.  Charitably, they may have been doing all the processing and approvals in those 60 days with the intention of releasing the funds on day 60 but no one was getting them before then.  Of course this is all speculation, but that's what happens in the absence of information.

[CruiserBruce]

1 hour ago, funintehsun said:

I don't understand some of the posts in this thread.  Are some seriously arguing in FAVOR of misleading customers and keeping them in the dark?   It is precisely for that reason that this thread was created.  Several long term cruisers feel betrayed by the way HAL has handled this and will consider other travel options in the future.  Furthermore, they will tell their friends about it.  That's what happened with me.  When I told my non-cruising coworkers that I had to dispute the charge, the response was that it was terrible that the line was keeping my money to pay their bills.

 

IMO, the reason HAL isn't communicating timelines and progress is because they never had any intention of sending refunds out until the 60 days passed.  Which means that the "up-to" part of the 60 days statement was a lie. No one was getting a refund  before 60 days.  Charitably, they may have been doing all the processing and approvals in those 60 days with the intention of releasing the funds on day 60 but no one was getting them before then.  Of course this is all speculation, but that's what happens in the absence of information.

Lots of assumptions here, and that is what is wrong with threads like this. For example, we canceled on March 13, early on in the process. So not many people are over 60 days yet...we certainly aren't. Cruise Critic is less than 5% of all cruisers, and how many of that small percentage are owed money? Can you really say nobody is getting refunds? And the vast majority of cruises were canceled after the shutdown, which started around March 15, so not yet 60 days yet. So, there is not clearly a lie.

 

Second, all your friends just assume that HAL is holding your money, to pay their bills. That means you don't understand how this business works. HAL had 100% revenue loss the day they shut down, and that loss is up to about 6 months now, with the shutdown to about Oct 1. Not only did they have total revenue loss, but they have to refund all that revenue. All the business expertise in the several threads here on this topic never mention a comprehension of the complexity of this issue, nor what Carnival Corp is doing to mitigate the cash flow. 

 

We have $16K due us. Yes, I would like that money back. Yes, I would like HAL to communicate far better. But I won't pretend it is all about me to the ignorance of what is going on in the world. Tell me any other business that has this situation, and has magically refunded all monies due, please.