Social distancing on a cruise ship

[fisherguy]

Its mind boggling how the use of masks has somehow become a symbol of oppression.

 

Canada is not immune to this as well as a few incidents have recently cropped up on social media.

 

Masks were never intended to be used as a primary tool for the public to prevent the spread of this Virus.  In fact the hierarchy of what you should be doing is:

 

1. Stay home if you have symptoms

2. Social Distance

3. More frequent hand washing

4. Using masks

 

Masks should be used if Social distancing measures either are not possible or are not being observed.  Masks should only be considered as an additional layer of protection.

 

The problem is that in  some areas, the number of people that are walking around with the Virus is comparatively large and when you get situations where people aren't social distancing and are spending prolonged periods of time indoors in close proximity to each other, the spread of the Virus is inevitable.  When you get infection rates that are spiraling out of control, you don't have much choice but to mandate mask use.

 

Early on we had frequent outbreaks at our meat processing plants.  Workers were going in to work while sick, no social distancing measures were taken and no PPE use. 

 

Its much easier to enforce mask use.  Not so with Hand washing or social distancing.  

[pmd98052]

On 7/8/2020 at 9:28 AM, fandash said:

cruising is suppposed to be enjoyable and relaxing. there's the exception

I don’t get how this point is connected to public transport. Public transport requires face masks. Cruising is by definition public transport. You might have 60 people on a packed bus. You have 6,000 on a packed cruise ship. The odds of one person having the virus go up dramatically on a cruise ship versus a bus. Even more of a need for masks.

 

Cruising isn’t coming back to the USA for a long time. Florida, Arizona, and Texas have seen to that. Masks or no masks it’s not returning for quite some time.

Edited July 10, 2020 by pmd98052

[HaveWeMetYet]

17 minutes ago, pmd98052 said:

I don’t get how this point is connected to public transport. Public transport requires face masks. Cruising is by definition public transport. You might have 60 people on a packed bus. You have 6,000 on a packed cruise ship. The odds of one person having the virus go up dramatically on a cruise ship versus a bus. Even more of a need for masks.

 

Cruising isn’t coming back to the USA for a long time. Florida, Arizona, and Texas have seen to that. Masks or no masks it’s not returning for quite some time.

People use public transport because they have to. Like getting to work or a store. Cruising is an option for a vacation.

 

Cruising isn't coming back anywhere for a long time, at least for the large ships.

[dcipjr]

30 minutes ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

Cruising isn't coming back anywhere for a long time, at least for the large ships.

 

I agree. I wish it weren't true, but wishing doesn't make the virus go away (plenty of people have tried).

 

The idea of social distancing on a cruise ship is laughable at best. The cruise industry will get back to normal once the pandemic is over. Will there be cruises beforehand? Probably, on an extremely limited basis. But cruising as a whole isn't going to look like the cruising we know and love until the pandemic ends. And it will end, eventually, though it could be 2022 or later.

 

"But the cruise industry won't survive like that until 2022," some will say. I agree. They probably won't survive.

 

When the pandemic is over, though, cruises will go back to looking like a great way to vacation, and if the current crop of lines don't survive, investors will buy up the idled cruise ships for pennies on the dollar and new lines will emerge.

 

Change. It's something we're going to have to get used to. Hopefully we can make it change for the better.

Edited July 10, 2020 by dcipjr

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, fisherguy said:

Its mind boggling how the use of masks has somehow become a symbol of oppression.

 

Canada is not immune to this as well as a few incidents have recently cropped up on social media.

 

Masks were never intended to be used as a primary tool for the public to prevent the spread of this Virus.  In fact the hierarchy of what you should be doing is:

 

1. Stay home if you have symptoms

2. Social Distance

3. More frequent hand washing

4. Using masks

 

Masks should be used if Social distancing measures either are not possible or are not being observed.  Masks should only be considered as an additional layer of protection.

 

The problem is that in  some areas, the number of people that are walking around with the Virus is comparatively large and when you get situations where people aren't social distancing and are spending prolonged periods of time indoors in close proximity to each other, the spread of the Virus is inevitable.  When you get infection rates that are spiraling out of control, you don't have much choice but to mandate mask use.

 

Its much easier to enforce mask use.  Not so with Hand washing or social distancing.  

What is mind boggling has become a sign of social virtue even though it's ineffective. 

 

The policies for wearing masks are insane.  I have to wear a mask to enter my gym and show my little id card.  I can take the mask off after walking another 10 feet to the official exercise area.  Wide open area where the exercise area only differs from the rest of the building because it has carpeting.  What does wearing a mask to walk 20 feet accomplish? (BTW, county policy specifically exempts exercise facilities. WHO does not recommend masks in gyms.)  

 

The county policy requires masks in restaurants but not while eating or drinking.  But it does require masks while 'interacting' with servers or other customers.  Here's where its insane:

Your hostess seats you at a table.  Take off mask.

Your server arrives to get drink order.  Put mask back on to order (interaction).

Server leaves to fetch drinks.  Take mask off.

Server brings drinks.  Put mask back on while server serves drinks. 

Server leaves.  Take mask off.

Waitress arrives to distribute menu.  Interaction again, mask back on.  

Waitress leaves, masks back off.

Rinse, repeat for ordering entree, serving entree, bring check, etc., etc.

 

Note: each time you put mask on and take it off only increases the chance of infection from touching the mask and your face.

 

My county has 700 infected out of a population of 373,000.  That's 1.8 infected per 100,000. How is that 'spiraling out of control'?  Your chances of encountering an infected person is miniscule.  Yet, our city council just enacted a requirement to wear masks.

 

It's only a matter of time until these kinds of policies result in complete disobedience.  

[DCGuy64]

I agree with @RocketMan275, that's all I'll say.

 

[fisherguy]

35 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

What is mind boggling has become a sign of social virtue even though it's ineffective. 

 

The policies for wearing masks are insane.  I have to wear a mask to enter my gym and show my little id card.  I can take the mask off after walking another 10 feet to the official exercise area.  Wide open area where the exercise area only differs from the rest of the building because it has carpeting.  What does wearing a mask to walk 20 feet accomplish? (BTW, county policy specifically exempts exercise facilities. WHO does not recommend masks in gyms.)  

 

The county policy requires masks in restaurants but not while eating or drinking.  But it does require masks while 'interacting' with servers or other customers.  Here's where its insane:

Your hostess seats you at a table.  Take off mask.

Your server arrives to get drink order.  Put mask back on to order (interaction).

Server leaves to fetch drinks.  Take mask off.

Server brings drinks.  Put mask back on while server serves drinks. 

Server leaves.  Take mask off.

Waitress arrives to distribute menu.  Interaction again, mask back on.  

Waitress leaves, masks back off.

Rinse, repeat for ordering entree, serving entree, bring check, etc., etc.

 

Note: each time you put mask on and take it off only increases the chance of infection from touching the mask and your face.

 

My county has 700 infected out of a population of 373,000.  That's 1.8 infected per 100,000. How is that 'spiraling out of control'?  Your chances of encountering an infected person is miniscule.  Yet, our city council just enacted a requirement to wear masks.

 

It's only a matter of time until these kinds of policies result in complete disobedience.  

The poor execution and lack of communication with how masks are to be used does not preclude that fact that masks are an effective means of minimizing the droplets expelled from your face.  If you are saying that masks are ineffective because people aren't using them properly or rules are inconsistent and don't make sense leading to non compliance then you are right.  If you are saying that masks don't present an effective  barrier to the expulsion of the droplets that may contain the virus from your face then I don't think that is correct.

Edited July 10, 2020 by fisherguy

[RocketMan275]

3 minutes ago, fisherguy said:

The poor execution and lack of communication with how masks are to be used does not preclude that fact that masks are an effective means of minimizing the droplets expelled from your face.  If you are saying that masks are ineffective because people aren't using them properly or rules are inconsistent and don't make sense leading to non compliance then you are right.  If you are saying that masks don't present an effective  barrier to the expulsion of the droplets that may contain the virus from your face then I don't think that is correct.

It they are being used improperly then what is the point of requiring their use?  People aren't dumb.  They can see that these protocols are ineffective and that undermines the credibility of those recommending the protocols.  Don't blame the people when they are given inconsistent (wear masks, don't wear masks, don't go to church but protests are fine) instructions.

 

The second point is that these masks are only effective in minimizing expelled droplets when the wearer is infected.  If there are so few infected (2 in a thousand in my country), that raises the question again of why?  That's clearly an overreaction and 'crying wolf' ultimately is doomed to failure.   

 

The bottom line is politicians, cruise ship operators, and some people feel the need to be seen doing something.  Wearing masks accomplishes that objective even if it is ineffective at curbing the virus.  Implementing ineffective policies only undermines credibility that may be needed in the future. 

 

[fisherguy]

I don't think anyone here "likes" wearing a mask.  Heck if I didn't have to wear underwear (for hygiene) I wouldn't🙂.

 

My parents are staying at home for the most part.  They don't go out too much anyways and are happy to limit their travels.  When I visit them, I wear a mask (I don't stay long).  Why?  well my dad's in his 80's, has hypertension and is diabetic.  In the slim chance that I may be carrying this virus, I don't want to be the one that gives this to him.  Even if the chances are slim, If he gets the virus from me, I will have to live with this for the rest of my life.

 

 

[fisherguy]

2 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

It they are being used improperly then what is the point of requiring their use?  People aren't dumb.  They can see that these protocols are ineffective and that undermines the credibility of those recommending the protocols.  Don't blame the people when they are given inconsistent (wear masks, don't wear masks, don't go to church but protests are fine) instructions.

 

The second point is that these masks are only effective in minimizing expelled droplets when the wearer is infected.  If there are so few infected (2 in a thousand in my country), that raises the question again of why?  That's clearly an overreaction and 'crying wolf' ultimately is doomed to failure.   

 

The bottom line is politicians, cruise ship operators, and some people feel the need to be seen doing something.  Wearing masks accomplishes that objective even if it is ineffective at curbing the virus.  Implementing ineffective policies only undermines credibility that may be needed in the future. 

 

You are looking at this from the point of view of your county.  You can't close off your county.  People from other counties or other states are free to come and go as they please.  So saying you will only have a chance to encounter the "2" is not correct.

 

Listen I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying.  Masks are only an additional tool and are useless if people aren't using them properly.  We never had mandated mask use for the public.  People just chose to wear them for extra protection.  Those that found them uncomfortable didn't wear them.  We were given instructions on how to use them properly.  How they can help and we were given a choice.

[Outerdog]

24 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

People aren't dumb. 

 

You sure about that?

[pmd98052]

1 hour ago, RocketMan275 said:

My county has 700 infected out of a population of 373,000.  That's 1.8 infected per 100,000. How is that 'spiraling out of control'?  Your chances of encountering an infected person is miniscule.  Yet, our city council just enacted a requirement to wear masks.

And yet 133,000 people in the USA are dead.

 

Your city is smart. Learn from what the rest of the world has done.

[ECCruise]

17 minutes ago, fisherguy said:

You are looking at this from the point of view of your county.  You can't close off your county.  People from other counties or other states are free to come and go as they please.  So saying you will only have a chance to encounter the "2" is not correct.

So right.  We had been doing great in our county during the initial stay at home order.

Very few cases.  From the beginning, the majority of people social distanced and wore masks, even before mandatory.  Upon the mask ordinance, virtually 100% wore masks.

Alas, we live in one of the most active tourist meccas in the country.  Once hotels were reopened, especially to 100%, the tourists flocked in, the majority from hot spots in FL, SC, GA.  The cases are rising quickly.   Until the data is fully assessed, there is no saying that the incidence is attributable to arrivals from out of state, but for certain those arrivals are not helping it.

No man (and no county) is an island.  Especially with people cuckoo to travel. 

[pmd98052]

2 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Once hotels were reopened, especially to 100%, the tourists flocked in, the majority from hot spots in FL, SC, GA.  The cases are rising quickly.

It shocks me to the core that in the worlds leading COVID19 hotspot that Disney World reopens tomorrow . A more idiotic idea I cannot even imagine.

Edited July 10, 2020 by pmd98052

[pmd98052]

Good grief I just finished watching a documentary about the Battle of Britain (80th anniversary) and folks on here are seriously arguing that masks are too much for their generation? It’s pretty damn crazy.

Edited July 10, 2020 by pmd98052

[fisherguy]

5 minutes ago, pmd98052 said:

It shocks me to the core that in the worlds leading COVID19 hotspot that Disney World reopens tomorrow . A more idiotic idea I cannot even imagine.

I can imagine the logistics involved with having to keep people safe.

 

 

[onetimearoundtheworld]

It doesn't matter how often you touch your mask or if you put it in your pockets. As long as you cover mouth and nose you limit the spread of droplets. Sure if the mask gets contaminated on the outside and then you touch your face afterwards it is your own problem. But that is why you shouldn't touch your face in the first place.

The facts that the usual three precautions masks, distance and hand washing work well is not doubted by any professional and so freaking obvious that any discussion about it is just stupid. 

 

Those places that follow the recommendations, which by the way hurt no one compared to the alternatives, already show and will do so even more in the future to have greater success, a better economic recovery and less deaths and long lasting medical consequences. 

 

Look at Germany for example, where river cruising already has started and the first ocean going cruises will do so in two weeks. Sure there will be restrictions and rules to follow but it is kind of the reward of listening to professionals and follow the rules to get back to a normal life earlier than those crying loudly about masks and defying rules and common sense. 

 

In a way you get what you deserve I guess

[seaman11]

29 minutes ago, pmd98052 said:

It shocks me to the core that in the worlds leading COVID19 hotspot that Disney World reopens tomorrow . A more idiotic idea I cannot even imagine.

they may start cruising this year because they may just say well covid isnt going away so they may allow them to sail with some tight protocols. 

[RocketMan275]

43 minutes ago, pmd98052 said:

And yet 133,000 people in the USA are dead.

 

Your city is smart. Learn from what the rest of the world has done.

How many deaths have been caused by the lockdowns and how many lives ruined?

These protocols are not 'free'.  There are tradeoffs.

 

 

[RocketMan275]

48 minutes ago, pmd98052 said:

Good grief I just finished watching a documentary about the Battle of Britain (80th anniversary) and folks on here are seriously arguing that masks are too much for their generation? It’s pretty damn crazy.

Good grief is right.  It is crazy that we weren't afraid of the nazis but we're terrified of the coronavirus.

[chipmaster]

15 hours ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

fandash is correct. In fact, he is way under estimating things when he says a lot of people don't wear them correctly. About no one wears them correctly. I see people pull them up, down, and all around there heads constantly. Throw them on the dashboard of their car, stick them in their pocket, drop them on the floor and put them back on. Never clean them.

The threshold of viral loading from covid to initiate sickness in a person is just to low for mask to work. Contact tracing has proven that.

The only effective prevention is isolation and I don't mean 6 feet. 6 feet is also useless.

 

This fascination with people wearing wrong or not perfectly so we should consider the whole thing useless or miss-guided is interesting.

 

I could ask if you try and eat a health diet, or exercise, or whatever theme you'd like to argue, maybe get good grades.  But often you don't do that regiment perfectly, well than let's just consider it useless and move on.   Sorry there is STILL BENEFIT!

 

 

Masks even worn less than perfect fit ( I agree not over nose is stupid ) is better than not at all,   you still filter a large portion of the air you inhale and exhale, and if there is a virus load in that air, reduce the amount you exhale or inhale.   Sorry I'll take that.

 

I'd take a bunch of morons wearing their masks incorrectly, or a society of people pretending trying to eat healthy, etc. over one that just says forget it.

Edited July 10, 2020 by chipmaster

[chipmaster]

46 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

How many deaths have been caused by the lockdowns and how many lives ruined?

These protocols are not 'free'.  There are tradeoffs.

 

 

 

Hong Kong, Taiwan and So Korea pretty much avoided lock downs while having very dense population ala NYC.  They have had schools open and indoor dining, they didn't need to make tradeoffs, why is that?

[chipmaster]

7 hours ago, GA Dave said:

Savannah passed an ordinance ten days ago that masks are mandatory anywhere in public, inside or out.  On the local news, they showed the police in the downtown tourist area stopping people and telling them about the new ordinance, the fines involved, and offering them a mask for free.  There were actually a few people that refused to put them on even after being offered.  They were then presented with a $500 summons.

That seems to be an expensive way to "prove your point".

 

If they had role models maybe they'd realize there is no point to make at all, we all need to sacrifice a little for the larger good of society, how did we as a country lose that value?

[chipmaster]

1 hour ago, pmd98052 said:

It shocks me to the core that in the worlds leading COVID19 hotspot that Disney World reopens tomorrow . A more idiotic idea I cannot even imagine.

 

Disney has a good plan, similar to the Shanghai Disney that has been open a while with no documented cases originating there.

 

The larger problem will be the incoming crowd will be coming from all over the US and they don't nearly have the same behavior at their origination, during travel.  So sadly Disney World while good protocol won't save the fact the people going and their travels will be severely compromised and likely bringing many newly infected to the place to re-spread it to many unsuspecting people.

[seaman11]

38 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

 

Disney has a good plan, similar to the Shanghai Disney that has been open a while with no documented cases originating there.

 

The larger problem will be the incoming crowd will be coming from all over the US and they don't nearly have the same behavior at their origination, during travel.  So sadly Disney World while good protocol won't save the fact the people going and their travels will be severely compromised and likely bringing many newly infected to the place to re-spread it to many unsuspecting people.

im sure the others states Residents worst habits will be on par with florida residents . There arent too many states with more cases than florida . 

Edited July 10, 2020 by seaman11