Social distancing on a cruise ship

[npcl]

7 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

You greatly oversimplify the wearing of masks.  It is far more complicated than you assert. 

 

Here are some basic questions for you:

Does a mask become contaminated when it traps virus particles?

How long should a paper mask be worn before it should be replaced because it has become contaminated?

How long should a cloth mask be worn before it is washed because it has become contaminated?

Does a non-infected person wearing a mask that is contaminated leave a trail of virus particles behind?

How should a person replace a mask?

Should the hands be washed before/after replacing the mask?

What is the proper way to dispose of a contaminated mask?

What is the proper fit for a mask?  

Does an improperly fitted mask lose effectiveness?

Does a contaminated mask pose a threat to the wearer or those in the near vicinity? 

When a person sneezes while wearing a contaminated mask does the sneeze transmit those virus particles into the air around the person who sneezed?

 

The problem with masks is the assumption that 'anything is better than nothing' which is patently untrue.  Masks can also become a danger to those wearing them and those around the wearer unless the mask is properly worn.  Masks can also give a false sense of security where people forgo other protocols such as handwashing.

 

Note: I'm not saying that masks are inherently ineffective but that they become ineffective when they are improperly worn/disposed of.  I'm also saying that the vast majority thinks as you do, ie, all they have to do is put the mask on.

 

 

To most of those questions it depends upon the environment.  If one was in a health care setting, where one is dealing with known infected patients and there is likely to be a relatively heavy virus load then they become important. In most cases you have no way of knowing so your behavior should remain the same.  If you are going into a knowing infected area, unless you are a medical professional, you should not be there to begin with.  

 

On the other hand in a general setting, one where you are trying to be socially distant it is far far less of an issue.  Because 1. it is more to keep you from spreading to other people.  2. reduce both inhaled and exhalation air velocity to reduce the distance that exhaled particles can reach as well as reduce the volume of air you draw from when inhaling.

 

Again wearing a mask and following medical facility protocol is far different than the general public use in public areas.  As far as masks in that case a few general rules such as:

 

1. In general use wash a re-useable mask daily

2. If you encounter a close distance someone that you believe is ill and as a result your mask might be contaminated.  Remove it and wash it as soon as possible.

3. If you sneeze or cough into your mask, again wash as soon as possible

4. The mask does not replace social distancing, it merely enhances social distancing

5. Masks do not eliminate the need for hand washing

 

If you are in a medical facility follow their protocol.

 

 

 

 

[npcl]

6 hours ago, pmd98052 said:

a) Expected death rate for kids who return to school from the Secretary of Education is 0.02%. It’s a small number as a percent. In real terms that’s 15,000 dead kids. 
 

b) it’s not just about the kids. Kids travel.

 

c) there are teachers and others in schools.

 

 

In many cases it is not the death rate, but the other complications and other potential impacts, such as the inflammation syndrome showing up in some children.

 

Plus there have been some reports of people getting infected again after recovering, and having more serious symptoms. (kind of like happens with  Dengue Fever ).  Unfortunately we do not know what will happen with children upon second infection. Are we likely to see more severe symptoms?

[jotjot]

Rocketman275, you are correct . up until a few month ago both the WHO and CDC were telling everyone "no mask". Keep the sick ones home and safe. The rest of us, lets get back on the ships we can work it out. If someone is afraid or worried they can stay home too.

 

[sverigecruiser]

10 hours ago, d9704011 said:

You know, you (generic) can calculate until the cows come home with the CV-19 numbers that are available but it’s all going to be a big crap shoot.  I expect things are pretty much the same in the US as they are here.... kids were taken out of school in mid-March and locked away in little bubbles (often referred to as houses) for the last four months or so with almost no interaction with other people in an environment totally non-representative of anything even the so-called ‘new normal’ will look like for them.  Making predictions on what will happen in school is a mug’s game.  

 

Hence all the precautions the CDC is recommending.

 

Our schools for young kids were not closed. We have over 5500 deaths in Sweden. How many deaths in the agegroup 0-19? One! So kids have not been locked away in little bubbles here and one kid has died. ( Of course one kid is one too much but overall we can't say that open schools has been a problem here. )

 

I work as a teacher and don't know anyone with confirmed Covid-19 so open schools doesn't seem to be a problem for adults working in schools either.  

[sverigecruiser]

11 hours ago, fisherguy said:

masks in restaurants should not be required if proper social distancing measures are put in place.  Staff though are normally required to wear masks.  Restaurants here are running at less than full capacity.  Tables are spaced 6 feet apart and limited to no more tha 6 per table.  Restaurants that are unable to do this have not been able to open.  

 

Noone is wearing masks at restaurants here, including staff.

 

What I say is that if masks are required it's easy to keep then on until drinks and food arrives. No need to take them on and off all the time.

[pmd98052]

11 hours ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

Thats from all causes, not covid. Deaths from covid below the age of 18 are near zero.

 

NO.

 

No it is not. Please listen to your Secretary of State for Education and the CDC figure and get the facts right.

 

The risk of dying FROM COVID for kids in school is 0.02%. That doesn't even include the heart damage, lung damage, and brain damage COVID causes. That 0.02% equates to 15,000 children dying across the country. It doesn't include who they spread it to as well.

 

 

[Joebucks]

15 hours ago, fisherguy said:

None of our infections here have been linked to improperly worn masks

 

I always find it amazing how people know how the causes from all infections.

 

3 hours ago, pmd98052 said:

 

NO.

 

No it is not. Please listen to your Secretary of State for Education and the CDC figure and get the facts right.

 

The risk of dying FROM COVID for kids in school is 0.02%. That doesn't even include the heart damage, lung damage, and brain damage COVID causes. That 0.02% equates to 15,000 children dying across the country. It doesn't include who they spread it to as well.

 

From Feb 1 - June 17, .134% of all "COVID" deaths were from people aged 5-24. This came out to 138 people. A pretty far stretch from 15,000. You can say this curve was flattened because of school closings, and maybe you are right. I would also argue that kids probably weren't the best at social distancing and wearing masks either..

 

Sorry, but these claims that children are at danger from this is baseless. Why don't you check how many have died from the flu. As of March, 144 did.

[d9704011]

4 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

Our schools for young kids were not closed. We have over 5500 deaths in Sweden. How many deaths in the agegroup 0-19? One! So kids have not been locked away in little bubbles here and one kid has died. ( Of course one kid is one too much but overall we can't say that open schools has been a problem here. )

 

I work as a teacher and don't know anyone with confirmed Covid-19 so open schools doesn't seem to be a problem for adults working in schools either.  

The Swedish experience appears to have been positive and provides for some optimism.  In Ontario, the schools were closed.  I believe the kids will be going back in late August or early September and we’ll see how all of that goes.  I’m sure things will work out, there will be a high degree of vigilance. 

[pmd98052]

3 hours ago, Joebucks said:

From Feb 1 - June 17, .134% of all "COVID" deaths were from people aged 5-24. This came out to 138 people. A pretty far stretch from 15,000. You can say this curve was flattened because of school closings, and maybe you are right. I would also argue that kids probably weren't the best at social distancing and wearing masks either..

 

 

Errr that is the entire point. Schools. Were. Closed.

 

Look opening schools if you have a low/declining number of cases like the rest of the world does makes total sense - not arguing. Opening schools when you have an absolutely massive number of new cases (far more than when schools originally closed) makes zero sense and is criminally negliagent. 

 

Again - South Korea re-locked schools with 79 new cases. Florida is seeing 15,000 new cases per day. South Korea has more than double the population (51M to 21M).

 

15,000 cases PER day.

 

79 cases per day.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/south-korea-shuts-schools-spike-coronavirus-cases-deaths-spike-a9538441.html 

Edited July 14, 2020 by pmd98052

[pmd98052]

7 hours ago, jotjot said:

The rest of us, lets get back on the ships we can work it out. If someone is afraid or worried they can stay home too.

 

No one is getting back on ships.

 

You might have just heard. Qantas just cancelled all international flights until end of March 2021.

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12348043

 

AIn't no one cruising for a long time in the USA thanks to Florida, Texas etc.

Edited July 14, 2020 by pmd98052

[pmd98052]

Latest cases and fatalities trends for Florida. Disney isn’t going to be open for much longer let alone cruising!

 

 

[coffeebean]

On 5/30/2020 at 4:45 PM, NutsAboutGolf said:

 

Of course.  The reason I pointing out sneezing/coughing is because people usually do so in their hands then without realizing it, could be contaminating anything they touch.  Sneeze into your hands, remember after the fact that you shouldn't have done so and need to wash your hands, on the way to the nearest restroom you receive a smartphone notification, check your phone put it back in your pocket that's now potentially contaminated.

It has been several years now, but there was a big push to NOT sneeze or cough into your hands. Sneeze or cough into your elbow. In fact, that is what the experts are telling us now even though this is not new information. It makes sense. Think about it. Who opens a car door with their elbow? That is just one example.

[npcl]

12 hours ago, jotjot said:

Rocketman275, you are correct . up until a few month ago both the WHO and CDC were telling everyone "no mask". Keep the sick ones home and safe. The rest of us, lets get back on the ships we can work it out. If someone is afraid or worried they can stay home too.

 

At the time the CDC and WHO were making those recommendations far less was known about the virus and how it spread.  Also at that time there was difficulty in obtaining PPE for health care providers and first responders.

 

With better knowledge comes better policies.

[Aldeya]

24 minutes ago, npcl said:

At the time the CDC and WHO were making those recommendations far less was known about the virus and how it spread.  Also at that time there was difficulty in obtaining PPE for health care providers and first responders.

 

With better knowledge comes better policies.

JUNE 1, 2020.  Association of American Physicians and Surgeons

"

• Surgical masks – loose fitting. They are designed to protect the patient from the doctors’ respiratory droplets.  The wearer is not protected from others airborne particles
• People do not wear masks properly. Most people have the mask under the nose. The wearer does not have glasses on and the eyes are a portal of entry.
• The designer masks and scarves offer minimal protection – they give a false sense of security to both the wearer and those around the wearer.
  **Not to mention they add a perverse lightheartedness to the situation."

https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

Edited July 14, 2020 by Aldeya

[chipmaster]

6 minutes ago, Aldeya said:

JUNE 1, 2020.  Association of American Physicians and Surgeons

"

• Surgical masks – loose fitting. They are designed to protect the patient from the doctors’ respiratory droplets.  The wearer is not protected from others airborne particles
• People do not wear masks properly. Most people have the mask under the nose. The wearer does not have glasses on and the eyes are a portal of entry.
• The designer masks and scarves offer minimal protection – they give a false sense of security to both the wearer and those around the wearer.
  **Not to mention they add a perverse lightheartedness to the situation."

https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

 

The strangest thing I see is for the anti mask to dwell on these three items

1) People wearing the mask improperly.  My feeling is any mask even poorly worn is better than NO mask.  Setting this as the reason for not wearing is stupid.    It is like saying don't wear seat belts, don't wear jacket/gloves or use raingear because you aren't wearing it properly.  Even poorly worn, is less than ideal, but better than naked.

2) There are many in-effective masks ( cloth, poorly fitting, etc. etc.  ) again like 1) any mask better than none.

3) False sense of security and cause bad / less safe behavior.   Think about it, you make excuses to not do better and safer, than say if you try and do safer, you'll be more unsafe, the irony of these people thinking.

 

People are just looking for every excuse to do nothing or do minimal to minimize inconvenience. 

[fisherguy]

40 minutes ago, npcl said:

At the time the CDC and WHO were making those recommendations far less was known about the virus and how it spread.  Also at that time there was difficulty in obtaining PPE for health care providers and first responders.

 

With better knowledge comes better policies.

In addition to what you mentioned above, Mask use was not promoted because there was a misconception that they were used primarily to protect yourself when they were really for protecting others.  Our health authority was worried that early promotion of mask use would lead to the population neglecting to practice social distancing and frequent handwashing both of which were considered more important.  

[Aldeya]

11 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

 

 you make excuses to not do better and safer, than say if you try and do safer, you'll be more unsafe, the irony of these people thinking.

 

People are just looking for every excuse to do nothing or do minimal to minimize inconvenience. 

Just in case you didn't notice that my post was a direct quote from the official article of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons. Definitely people who are more qualified than you and me to access the situation.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Aldeya

[pmd98052]

Oh interesting as well as cancelling all flights until end of March 2021 Qantas also says they don't expect flights to start back up again until July 2021!

[CruzRamirez]

On 5/8/2020 at 5:14 PM, Sunseeker810 said:

So, I just got off the phone with NCL.  I asked if they were planning on sailing with a lesser capacity in order to social distance on the pool deck.  The answer was no.  They do however plan to space out the chairs.  I said that it can be impossible to get a chair as it is.  I was told to go out earlier.  I am usually out there by 7AM.  Perhaps I should go out at 3AM???

I think NCL plans upcharge for the ability of you the cruiser to be able to be more socially distanced from others. Like pay them more to be able to be at least six feet from others at the pool deck. Pay even more to be able to stay 20 feet from others not in your group. Or at the restaurant. Or in the theater.

[mking8288]

Schools and educational settings might not be the "most dangerous" setting for kids themselves - however, IMHO and there are plenty of data to support the notion that, kids can be asymptomatic and "help" spread the virus to others, like their teachers & support staff in the institutions ... and, bring it home to their own parents, grandparents, other adults and neighbors with other known & hidden comorbility or risk factors. 

 

There are risks in making blanket generalizations, like "kids don't care" - perhaps true, but not always true and not across the board false or untrue.  Kids in other countries are coached and taught, learned to wear a mask, properly ... maintain social distancing and wash hands before & after certain activities - and, they respect, follow and listen to the guidance & instructions given by others.  It could be good parenting and education by the grown-ups, adults. 

 

Our family dentist has resumed seeing current patients, by appointments, with measures in place, on a limited scale ... as he put it, " it is not necessary worth the risk to himself and his office team - despite being in as much PPE as he could" when I sat down again in his chair again, last week for a delayed follow-up to get some work done, and yesterday."  His office manager still has trouble getting FDA/OSHA-certified N95 masks and even the availability of an "equivalent" KN95 batch of masks were out of stock for ordering/delivery.  

 

We used to chat and share our cruise stories ... and, like us, they aren't returning to cruising and/or flying in a while - there are safer and "better" options or alternatives, not a matter of giving up one's freedom to live and die.  To which her/his own, as always - free free to disagree.  

[sverigecruiser]

16 hours ago, MJSailors said:

 

   Social distancing on a cruise ship ? I can’t see that happening. MHO

.

 

For me as a teacher social distancing on a cruise ship should be easier than at work. I'm very close to more people at work than I should be on a cruise if I made an effort to avoid being close to other people on the ship.

[pmd98052]

11 hours ago, Joebucks said:

but kids don't care about CDC guidelines. They are out playing with their friends. In big groups.

 

You've got to be kidding me right? We have kids of 12 and 14. I can assure you they are not out playing in big groups! You might have missed the news but here in the UK we've had a locked down precisely to stop the above and ensure things don't spread out of control like in Florida, Texas, Arizona etc.

 

So again. NO. That is not happening in other places.

 

On numbers - Look the CDC themselves say the COVID case fatality rate for kids is 0.02%. If the entire USA school population (~76 million) goes back to school the law of numbers says that is around 15,000 kids dead. I know math(s) is hard but come on. That doesn't even include numbers dead from kids then spreadin it further.

 

There are some places in the USA where schools could easily open (same here in the UK) there are others where they absolutely should not due to being COVID19 epicenters (Florida, Texas, Arizona to name just three).

 

 

[Joebucks]

5 hours ago, pmd98052 said:

 

You've got to be kidding me right? We have kids of 12 and 14. I can assure you they are not out playing in big groups! You might have missed the news but here in the UK we've had a locked down precisely to stop the above and ensure things don't spread out of control like in Florida, Texas, Arizona etc.

 

So again. NO. That is not happening in other places.

 

On numbers - Look the CDC themselves say the COVID case fatality rate for kids is 0.02%. If the entire USA school population (~76 million) goes back to school the law of numbers says that is around 15,000 kids dead. I know math(s) is hard but come on. That doesn't even include numbers dead from kids then spreadin it further.

 

There are some places in the USA where schools could easily open (same here in the UK) there are others where they absolutely should not due to being COVID19 epicenters (Florida, Texas, Arizona to name just three).

 

 

0.02% of infections, which is a far lower number. Not 0.02% of the population, no matter how badly you want to make a point. Even if it was 0.02% of the population, you still would want to see how many things can kill you 0.02% of the time. With that level of fear, you should never leave the house again. More kids have died from the flu than COVID this past season. No one ever even considered closing a school because of the flu.

 

Now if you want to talk about kids spreading it further, that is a more valid argument. Still, school is not an exclusive platform for kids to get and spread COVID.

[OzCanuck]

22 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

 

0.02% of infections, which is a far lower number. Not 0.02% of the population, no matter how badly you want to make a point. Even if it was 0.02% of the population, you still would want to see how many things can kill you 0.02% of the time. With that level of fear, you should never leave the house again. More kids have died from the flu than COVID this past season. No one ever even considered closing a school because of the flu.

 

Now if you want to talk about kids spreading it further, that is a more valid argument. Still, school is not an exclusive platform for kids to get and spread COVID.

How old are your kids, Joe?

[Joebucks]

16 minutes ago, OzCanuck said:

How old are your kids, Joe?

 

I do not have any. I hope this isn't some segue way into an emotional argument. More kids have died from flu this year than COVID. No one ever made an emotional plea over kids dying from flu.

 

I do have a much younger sister, and have watched how her and all of her friends interact. There is nothing different about it. All of her neighborhood friends do the same. Same in my neighborhood and all of the kids. Then they all interact with their family who interacts with other people.