Social distancing on a cruise ship

[chipmaster]

8 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

For me as a teacher social distancing on a cruise ship should be easier than at work. I'm very close to more people at work than I should be on a cruise if I made an effort to avoid being close to other people on the ship.

 

What about the bar, theater, gym, pool, buffet, dining room, hallway, stairway, elevator.

 

or do you just hang out in your cabin suite?

[chipmaster]

1 hour ago, Joebucks said:

 

I do not have any. I hope this isn't some segue way into an emotional argument. More kids have died from flu this year than COVID. No one ever made an emotional plea over kids dying from flu.

 

I do have a much younger sister, and have watched how her and all of her friends interact. There is nothing different about it. All of her neighborhood friends do the same. Same in my neighborhood and all of the kids. Then they all interact with their family who interacts with other people.

 

So we should just open it Joe?   A preventable death isn't one we should try and prevent.  Not to mention a infection w/o death that leads to a parent or grandparent death isn't important?

 

 

[pmd98052]

2 hours ago, Joebucks said:

0.02% of infections, which is a far lower number. Not 0.02% of the population, no matter how badly you want to make a point. Even if it was 0.02% of the population, you still would want to see how many things can kill you 0.02% of the time. With that level of fear, you should never leave the house again. More kids have died from the flu than COVID this past season. No one ever even considered closing a school because of the flu.

 

Now if you want to talk about kids spreading it further, that is a more valid argument. Still, school is not an exclusive platform for kids to get and spread COVID.

 

 

Fair point my calc assumes every kid gets it. Lets assume only 30% of kids get infected.

 

So 4,500 dead kids. And that doesn't include all the spreading the kids then go and do. Given they are often asymptomatic the risk is terrible there for others.

 

Your move.

 

More kids die of flu? Gimme a break. This year 105 kids died of flu. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/21/health/child-flu-deaths-105/index.html 

 

But get this the huge difference is flu also has a vaccine (some years more effective than others sure) and many of those deaths could be prevented. Ain't no vaccine for COVID19. Your move.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by pmd98052

[sverigecruiser]

20 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

 

What about the bar, theater, gym, pool, buffet, dining room, hallway, stairway, elevator.

 

or do you just hang out in your cabin suite?

 

If a make an effort to avoid people I can do it.

 

I'm normally close to 2-3 persons during breakfast, lunch and dinner. Most of them are the same for every meal so maybe 4 different persons. The Yacht Club  pooldeck is not crowded so no need to be close to anyone there. I may be close to maybe 3 more persons serving drinks if I stay within the Yacht Club. No need to be close to any passengers if I stay in the Yacht Club. Hallway and stairway is normally empty in the Yacht Club. So if I make an effort I may be close to less than 10 persons on a cruiseday and I'm close to much more people than that at work. I don't say that I prefer that experience but it is possible to stay away from people on a cruise. 

[OzCanuck]

1 hour ago, Joebucks said:

 

I do not have any. I hope this isn't some segue way into an emotional argument. More kids have died from flu this year than COVID. No one ever made an emotional plea over kids dying from flu.

 

I do have a much younger sister, and have watched how her and all of her friends interact. There is nothing different about it. All of her neighborhood friends do the same. Same in my neighborhood and all of the kids. Then they all interact with their family who interacts with other people.

I get it. You have no skin in the game. Credibility = 0. 

[pmd98052]

On the plus side perhaps cruising will re-open soon because if you just hide the data. Its all good!

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/16/us-coronavirus-data-has-already-disappeared-after-trump-administration-shifted-control-from-cdc-to-hhs.html?fbclid=IwAR26mBB-CdPshXD5PyK_Cpro_00pcUcFO3KhfsvImrkgotn6vYWQL6U69hw

 

[beerman2]

45 minutes ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

If a make an effort to avoid people I can do it.

 

I'm normally close to 2-3 persons during breakfast, lunch and dinner. Most of them are the same for every meal so maybe 4 different persons. The Yacht Club  pooldeck is not crowded so no need to be close to anyone there. I may be close to maybe 3 more persons serving drinks if I stay within the Yacht Club. No need to be close to any passengers if I stay in the Yacht Club. Hallway and stairway is normally empty in the Yacht Club. So if I make an effort I may be close to less than 10 persons on a cruiseday and I'm close to much more people than that at work. I don't say that I prefer that experience but it is possible to stay away from people on a cruise. 

So you're comparing MSC ( Yacht Club) to NCL?

 

i believe we are talking about the majority of pax in a regular setting , not Yacht Club (Msc) or Haven (NCL). Those are entirely diffferent scenarios.

[sverigecruiser]

3 hours ago, beerman2 said:

So you're comparing MSC ( Yacht Club) to NCL?

 

i believe we are talking about the majority of pax in a regular setting , not Yacht Club (Msc) or Haven (NCL). Those are entirely diffferent scenarios.

 

Since this is the NCL board I should have mentioned Haven instead of Yacht Club. My experience is that the Haven is more crowded than the Yacht Club so social distancing is easier in the Yacht Club but possible in the Haven too.

 

I am talking about my scenario, not the majoritys scenario. Of course people who work from home can easier have a distance to other people "at work" than on a cruiseship with a cheap cabin.

 

My scenario is that it's easier to have a social distance on a cruise than at work.   

[beerman2]

3 minutes ago, sverigecruiser said:

 

Since this is the NCL board I should have mentioned Haven instead of Yacht Club. My experience is that the Haven is more crowded than the Yacht Club so social distancing is easier in the Yacht Club but possible in the Haven too.

 

I am talking about my scenario, not the majoritys scenario. Of course people who work from home can easier have a distance to other people "at work" than on a cruiseship with a cheap cabin.

 

My scenario is that it's easier to have a social distance on a cruise than at work.   

The greater % of pax sail in a “cheap” cabin, and it’s great for those that can afford the Haven or Yacht club but again let’s talk about the majority of cruisers.

 

Your elite areas with private dining , bars, elevators, pool are a far cry from the rest of the ship and social distancing.

 

 

[sverigecruiser]

3 minutes ago, beerman2 said:

The greater % of pax sail in a “cheap” cabin, and it’s great for those that can afford the Haven or Yacht club but again let’s talk about the majority of cruisers.

 

Your elite areas with private dining , bars, elevators, pool are a far cry from the rest of the ship and social distancing.

 

 

 

I am only saying that I have to be close to more people at work than on a cruise. For me it's easier to keep distance on a cruise than at work. I don't talk about other persons situation.

 

I have never said that it's the same thing for everyone. 

[Newleno]

As the year started 2020 there was going to be about 3 million people that were going to die in the usa, now because of the modern plague more than 3 million will die but not because of the plague, but because of the stress's of the plague, aka not going for regular checkups, domestic violence, poverty, drugs, mental health, oh not to mention the lockdown riots, etc, etc, etc.  Got to look at the big picture not just a snap shot.  open cruising now!!!

[GeminiBrian]

On a related note, a study of cloth masks by BMJ Journals in 2015 showed these results:

"Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%."

 

Source: https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577

 

 

[Joebucks]

19 hours ago, pmd98052 said:

 

 

Fair point my calc assumes every kid gets it. Lets assume only 30% of kids get infected.

 

So 4,500 dead kids. And that doesn't include all the spreading the kids then go and do. Given they are often asymptomatic the risk is terrible there for others.

 

Your move.

 

More kids die of flu? Gimme a break. This year 105 kids died of flu. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/21/health/child-flu-deaths-105/index.html 

 

But get this the huge difference is flu also has a vaccine (some years more effective than others sure) and many of those deaths could be prevented. Ain't no vaccine for COVID19. Your move.

 

 

 

At least we are down from 15,000 deaths now. Your 4,500 death quote is still pure, baseless, conjecture. Justify it all you want. There is zero data that children are at that much danger here.

 

You even said it with the flu deaths. We even have a vaccine there. So in theory, flu deaths shouldn't even be a problem, right? Since everyone is asking for a vaccine to fix COVID. The flu vaccine is not completely effective. The death rates for flu and COVID have proven to be fairly similar. Also, your 105 number is off. It was 144 as of March. Remember, that is also with a lockdown. More kids have died from flu than COVID. Yet it is wrong to even use those two in the same sentence because people will only follow the fear they are told to fear.

 

https://www.aappublications.org/news/2020/03/13/flu031320

 

Again if you want to make a case that kids will spread it to more vulnerable people, that is more valid than "but do you want the children to die?!?!" Put the emotions down for a moment. No one wants kids to die. If you think this is the first time in history that kids unfortunately pass, you're dead wrong. You do not stop education and socialization of 57,000,000 kids for something this small.

[pmd98052]

8 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

There is zero data that children are at that much danger here.

 

Yea there is. CDC states that 0.02% CFR for child cases. That is data.

 

8 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

You even said it with the flu deaths. We even have a vaccine there. So in theory, flu deaths shouldn't even be a problem, right?

 

Lets get your statements accurate first. You claimed more kids die from flu that COVID19. I pointed out only 105 kids died of flu this year. So no.

 

Of course Flu deaths still happen. Not everyone gets the vaccine. Not everyone in the USA has medical coverage unfortunately.

 

8 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

Again if you want to make a case that kids will spread it to more vulnerable people, that is more valid

 

That is also the case. Look at Israel - They opened schools and have now found schools were the mega spreaders that have caused the massive problem they now face:

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-second-wave-of-covid-hits-israel-like-a-tsunami?fbclid=IwAR1qkOseCKPlsjYLTMtTHT5R1fHiO7n0I83-aKn006Us8Qs16g9uQZYt37o

 

And then moving on today.

 

CDC just extended no sail order. No one is cruising.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/cdc-cruise-ship-no-sail-order/index.html

 

"In its executive summary, the order notes that CDC data shows a total of 2,973 Covid-19 or Covid-like cases of illness aboard cruise ships, in addition to 34 deaths, between March 1 and July 10.

"These data have also revealed a total of 99 outbreaks on 123 different cruise ships, meaning that 80% of ships within US jurisdiction were affected by Covid-19 during this timeframe," 

Edited July 17, 2020 by pmd98052

[GeminiBrian]

TLDR; Wearing masks by people who are infected can help prevent the spread of the virus. Wearing masks by healthy people has little to no effect and can carry grave risks for the person wearing the mask. Hand hygiene is more important and more effective than wearing a mask.

 

The following text is quoted from this document by the WHO:

https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/331693/WHO-2019-nCov-IPC_Masks-2020.3-eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

Wearing a medical mask is one of the prevention measures that can limit the spread of certain respiratory viral diseases, including COVID-19. However, the use of a mask alone is insufficient to provide an adequate level of protection, and other measures should also be adopted.Whether or not masks are used, maximum compliance with hand hygiene and other IPC measures is critical to prevent human-to-human transmission of COVID-19.

 

Studies of influenza, influenza-like illness, and human coronaviruses provide evidence that the use of a medical mask can prevent the spread of infectious droplets from an infected person to someone else and potential contamination of the environment by these droplets.13 There is limited evidence that wearing a medical mask by healthy individuals in the households or among contacts of a sick patient, or among attendees of mass gatherings may be beneficial as a preventive measure.14-23 However, there is currently no evidence that wearing a mask (whether medical or other types) by healthy persons in the wider community setting, including universal community masking, can prevent them from infection with respiratory viruses, including COVID-19.

 

The document was originally published on April 6, 2020. There was an update to this document on June 5, 2020, but the referenced section above was not changed.

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by GeminiBrian
Added bold for highlight

[Joebucks]

1 hour ago, pmd98052 said:

 

Yea there is. CDC states that 0.02% CFR for child cases. That is data.

 

And do you know what the infection rate is? Do you know what the CFR is for flu?

 

Lets get your statements accurate first. You claimed more kids die from flu that COVID19. I pointed out only 105 kids died of flu this year. So no.

 

The most accurate count is 185 child flu deaths. So yes, more kids have died from flu this season.

 

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/pedfludeath.html

 

Of course Flu deaths still happen. Not everyone gets the vaccine. Not everyone in the USA has medical coverage unfortunately.

 

Another thing we agree on. So do we close schools forever or wait for a vaccine, knowing that it won't fix everything?

 

 

[pmd98052]

14 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

And do you know what the infection rate is? Do you know what the CFR is for flu?

 

I can't believe you are trying to say the CFR for Flu is higher than COVID. Its not worth even trying to argue this point.

 

17 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

The most accurate count is 185 child flu deaths. So yes, more kids have died from flu this season.

 

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/pedfludeath.html

 

No they haven't. 185 I'll even go with your number. Lets remember only 50% of kids get a flu vaccine! Most of those 185 are utterly preventable. Unlike COVID19 deaths. Which brings me to:

 

https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Sex-Age-and-S/9bhg-hcku

 

Where from the CDC you can see that for the following ages of kids in school/college the following deaths:

 

Under 1 year: 9 dead

1-4 years: 8 dead

5-14 years: 14 dead

15-24 years: 157 dead

 

So 188 dead with all schools closed. Unlike flu none of these deaths can be prevented with a vaccine.

 

Which brings me to the problem I linked to above - Israel tried re-opening schools and schools then became THE leading mega spreader for the huge surge in cases that Israel is now struggling with.

 

Does the USA want to learn from Israel's mistake or not?

 

 

 

 

[electro]

16 hours ago, Newleno said:

As the year started 2020 there was going to be about 3 million people that were going to die in the usa, now because of the modern plague more than 3 million will die but not because of the plague, but because of the stress's of the plague, aka not going for regular checkups, domestic violence, poverty, drugs, mental health, oh not to mention the lockdown riots, etc, etc, etc.  Got to look at the big picture not just a snap shot.  open cruising now!!!

No one is going to die because they can't go on a cruise.

[Fido Chuckwagon]

On 7/12/2020 at 5:47 PM, RocketMan275 said:

The masks are ineffective since most do not wear them in a manner that would make them effective.  

A cloth mask made out of  t-shirt isn't effective regardless of how it's worn.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

 

Either you're right, or the mayo clinic is right.  I'm sure it's you though!  You sound like a real man of genius.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Fido Chuckwagon

[RocketMan275]

51 minutes ago, Fido Chuckwagon said:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

 

Either you're right, or the mayo clinic is right.  I'm sure it's you though!  You sound like a real man of genius.

When has the Mayo clinic stated that improperly worn masks are effective?

[pmd98052]

3 hours ago, Fido Chuckwagon said:

Either you're right, or the mayo clinic is right.  I'm sure it's you though!  You sound like a real man of genius.

 

Well there are multiple experiements going on right now with those who are wearing, and those who are not wearing, masks. Time will tell who is right.

 

What we do know from the 1918 pandemic is - well - lets just say lessons were learnt about masks back then. If we don't learn from history it is doomed to repeat.

Edited July 17, 2020 by pmd98052

[chipmaster]

6 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

And do you know what the infection rate is? Do you know what the CFR is for flu?

 

 

 

 

The most accurate count is 185 child flu deaths. So yes, more kids have died from flu this season.

 

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/pedfludeath.html

 

 

 

 

Another thing we agree on. So do we close schools forever or wait for a vaccine, knowing that it won't fix everything?

 

 

 

Actually countries that had a leadership, strategy, and put in place a plan and resources to support it have managed to open up many important things, schools included.    They also have been quick to shut it down.   A common theme for those countries was the a larger majority of the people to not debate the merits and to follow the leadership and comprehend the strategy and required actions and made the sacrifices to support them, while other countries, cultures and leadership struggle or failed across any number of points.      Your response is only as good as your weakest link and all the links in some countries are um broken

[EllieinNJ]

I was so eager for the casinos here in Atlantic City to reopen which they did this month.  I usually go once a month.  But reading some of the stories people are posting on Trip Advisor, I think I'll stay home for the time being.  Of course, everyone has to wear a mask in all parts of the hotel.  You cannot bring anything to drink at the machines.  They close every other machine but that does not stop people from sitting down there next to you to watch.  The only food to get is outside and the lines are very long.  They removed all coffee machines from the rooms.  People who planned to stay a few days are leaving after just one, saying it is not very enjoyable. 

 

That is how I feel cruising will be once it resumes.  Not enjoyable.

[JoeTec]

@EllieinNJ I am also from NJ. I have gone twice to mount airy casino in PA. Its alot smaller & they are checking people coming in, every other machine is closed off, but they are serving drinks.

  1st time we went you could also smoke, went 1 week later - no smoking inside. The buffet was changed to a grab & go. Other restaurants were open inside.

I keep getting all these great offers from AC but if I can't have a drink on the machine while I am playing & have to eat in my room that's a no go for me.

[Joebucks]

18 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

Actually countries that had a leadership, strategy, and put in place a plan and resources to support it have managed to open up many important things, schools included.    They also have been quick to shut it down.   A common theme for those countries was the a larger majority of the people to not debate the merits and to follow the leadership and comprehend the strategy and required actions and made the sacrifices to support them, while other countries, cultures and leadership struggle or failed across any number of points.      Your response is only as good as your weakest link and all the links in some countries are um broken

 

I know, our leadership bad. Vacation bad. Protest good. The news would never report it anything other than as it is.