Social Distancing - will ships have to rearrange or even close venues? And who regulates this?

[clo]

Nevada is starting to reopen certain industries like restaurants, hair salons, etc. Restaurants will have to remove half their seating, servers must wear masks. Reservations are recommended, probably to help with distancing at the entrance. Space in hair salons is going to have to be a lot greater, again masks must be worn.  Are these things going to be implemented before ships can sail? And who makes that call? CDC?  I can't believe that it will be business as usual. Has anyone read anything in this regard? TIA.

Edited May 10, 2020 by clo

[Host Kat]

Cruise Lines Start Outlining Return to Service Plans

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5330/

 

I assume all the lines are still developing protocols in conjunction with the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and local authorities.

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Host Kat
Additional information.

[clo]

4 minutes ago, Host Kat said:

Cruise Lines Start Outlining Return to Service Plans

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5330/

 

 

Thanks for that.

 

I wonder if they're going to take bookings based upon the old maximum number or the new. Half as many? I also forgot to mention that, at least here, bars are closed, including bars in restaurants. Meaning the bar can serve people in the dining room but not in the bar. Considering the at last somewhat black eye the cruise industry has gotten I sure hope they're going to do a lot. A whole lot.

[Elaine5715]

The CDC does not control the cruise industry

[Hlitner]

There is a reason many call the big cruise lines "mass market lines.  They make their money by packing large numbers into relatively small spaces.  The only way to change this formula and allow for social spacing would be to vastly reduce the numbers on the ship (only sell 2/3 of the berths) which would result in a cruise ship that loses money.  It will not happen on the mass market ships.  But do not fear because you will hear the usual fixes like more hand washing stations, less food in the buffets which will no longer be self service, and more attention to cleaning the ship (which does nothing to protect anyone from coughing and sneezing).  

 

Understand that the business plan of the mass market cruise lines is to cover costs with the cruise fare and make their profit by maximizing onboard revenue.  But if you have fewer passengers your onboard revenue drops, the cost per person for fuel and fixed costs, increases, etc.  These mass market vessels cannot make money if there are many empty berths.

 

But here in my opinion.  Most of the cruise lines have been increasing their pricing (for the next 2 years) by 20 - 25%.  At the same time they will likely use COVID-19 as an excuse to further cut services (such as buffets, entertainment in crowded public loungers, etc).  Once folks have used up their Future Cruise Credits (from cancellations) it will be interesting to see if they can sell their products.

 

Hank

[Elaine5715]

1 minute ago, Hlitner said:

There is a reason many call the big cruise lines "mass market lines.  They make their money by packing large numbers into relatively small spaces.  The only way to change this formula and allow for social spacing would be to vastly reduce the numbers on the ship (only sell 2/3 of the berths) which would result in a cruise ship that loses money.  It will not happen on the mass market ships.  But do not fear because you will hear the usual fixes like more hand washing stations, less food in the buffets which will no longer be self service, and more attention to cleaning the ship (which does nothing to protect anyone from coughing and sneezing).  

 

But here in my opinion.  Most of the cruise lines have been increasing their pricing (for the next 2 years) by 20 - 25%.  At the same time they will likely use COVID-19 as an excuse to further cut services (such as buffets, entertainment in crowded public loungers, etc).  Once folks have used up their Future Cruise Credits (from cancellations) it will be interesting to see if they can sell their products.

 

Hank

None of these current political posturings are included in the final stage plans of any published plans

[clo]

9 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

The CDC does not control the cruise industry

Well, they're not letting them sail. Could they put conditions on allowing them? Who does "control" them?

[clo]

11 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

entertainment in crowded public loungers,

Oh right, I forgot about that. In some states that type of thing is banned until, like, phase 4.

[clo]

9 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

political posturings

Huh? Please explain what that means.

[slidergirl]

Some popular restaurants that now have dine-in are actually putting a time limit on table occupancy.  They have to in order to get enough people though the doors to lose as little money as possible right now.  Could you see that in the restaurants, including the MDRs on a ship doing this??? "I'm sorry sir, but you must leave after an hour of table time."   

 

 

[slidergirl]

6 minutes ago, clo said:

Huh? Please explain what that means.

Me too.  What political posturing?   All I see are pieces of potential health & safety ideas put forth.  

[Hlitner]

20 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

None of these current political posturings are included in the final stage plans of any published plans

Political posturings?  Surely you jest.  Consider the cruise line efforts to rid themselves of Norovirus,  Their plans sounded good, the onboard efforts are obvious, and the Noro outbreaks continue unabated.  The first cruise line plans for COVID-19 (which CLIA tried to sell to the White House) were largely about putting all kinds of restrictions on old folks!   But once they realized that such a policy is biting one of the hands that feed they pivoted to other policies that will not be effective.  Simply consider any cruise with only 1 person who becomes ill.  What then?  No ports will accept the ship?  Passengers will be confined to their cabins for 10 -20 years at soft labor?  etc etc.  Yes, some folks want to apply "politics" to anything including a public health crises.  But having spent over 35 years of my life in the healthcare/government world I tend to ignore all the politics and simply deal with facts.  OMG!  As to vaccines, I have previously posted that when I worked with the HIV/AIDs epidemic we heard lectures from experts (including Dr Anthony Fauci) about the soon to come vaccine.  That was about 35 years ago and there is still is no vaccine.

 

Forgive me for being a bit of a skeptic, but after more than 40 years of extensive cruising I have had very good teachers.  The fact is that we have a nasty virus that is going to be with us for a while.  There is little that cruise lines can do to effectively deal with this virus just like there is little they can do to deal with Norovirus, Flu, etc.  They will take the usual PR steps to try and give us all a good level of confidence and many of us will take our chances on future cruises.

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

15 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

Some popular restaurants that now have dine-in are actually putting a time limit on table occupancy.  They have to in order to get enough people though the doors to lose as little money as possible right now.  Could you see that in the restaurants, including the MDRs on a ship doing this??? "I'm sorry sir, but you must leave after an hour of table time."   

 

 

Hmmm what an idea.  I can see a "time menu" on each table that sets forth the extra charges for any extra time you spend at your table.  If you don't finish your dinner in 59 minutes you will pay an extra $20 for every 10 minutes?  Of course that menu will be on  paper (that will self destruct after 59 minutes) and next to the menu of all the pricy add-ons such as $25 for a cup of real small batch coffee.  I guess they could also put large pexiglass panels on the tables to separate all the diners.  But of course they would be able to communicate through texting at $5 per minute.

 

Hank

P.S.  During this COVID-19 panic, keeping one's humor (humour for you Brits) is important.  But I do suspect that nobody is laughing at the main offices of cruise lines.

[clo]

24 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

Some popular restaurants that now have dine-in are actually putting a time limit on table occupancy.  They have to in order to get enough people though the doors to lose as little money as possible right now.  Could you see that in the restaurants, including the MDRs on a ship doing this??? "I'm sorry sir, but you must leave after an hour of table time."   

 

 

Oh, I've read about that also. Perhaps the cruise industry could pay some attention to these things.

[clo]

5 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

But I do suspect that nobody is laughing at the main offices of cruise lines.

Especially if they're reading this post 🙂

[cruisemom42]

54 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

The CDC does not control the cruise industry

 

I guess this depends on your definition of "control" and "cruise industry".

 

The CDC, as a U.S. federal agency under the Department of Health and Human Services, has the right to regulate certain actions of the cruise lines that sail to and from US ports particularly related to concerns about public health, introduction of disease and (in my opinion one of the most crucial factors) preserving hospital, healthcare, and emergency response resources. And their No Sail Order published in the Federal Register on April 15 regulates the actions of those ships with regard to their operations in any US waterways or ports. And the US Coast Guard is tasked with seeing that such orders are followed.

 

As approximately 40% or more of ALL cruises operate in one of the several US-based markets (Caribbean, Alaska, Mexico, New England), that's certainly a large portion of the cruise industry, at any rate.

 

P.S.  Most people conveniently forget that it is the CDC which is also responsible for ensuring periodic sanitary inspections of ships and that all ships within their purview operate following their very stringent guidelines in order to ensure passenger health on every single sailing.

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by cruisemom42

[lenquixote66]

1 hour ago, clo said:

Nevada is starting to reopen certain industries like restaurants, hair salons, etc. Restaurants will have to remove half their seating, servers must wear masks. Reservations are recommended, probably to help with distancing at the entrance. Space in hair salons is going to have to be a lot greater, again masks must be worn.  Are these things going to be implemented before ships can sail? And who makes that call? CDC?  I can't believe that it will be business as usual. Has anyone read anything in this regard? TIA.

My wife received an e-mail today from her dentist stating that they hope to open May 25 but it is up to the Governor.The dentist stated that anyone seeking dental services must be tested for Covid-19 and be negative.When they open only one patient will be allowed in the waiting room and they must wear a mask .I guess when they go into the treatment room they remove the mask.

[clo]

8 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

has the right to regulate certain actions of the cruise lines that sail to and from US ports

So do you think they could require social distancing and other things like we've been living with for these last couple of months? I'd like to see that happen. Honestly.

[cruisemom42]

59 minutes ago, clo said:

Thanks for that.

 

I wonder if they're going to take bookings based upon the old maximum number or the new. Half as many? I also forgot to mention that, at least here, bars are closed, including bars in restaurants. Meaning the bar can serve people in the dining room but not in the bar. Considering the at last somewhat black eye the cruise industry has gotten I sure hope they're going to do a lot. A whole lot.

 

It's a conundrum to me how ships are going to manage this.

 

On the one hand, it is clear that social distancing is a part of the expected process for most land-based businesses to reopen. (My own company is grappling with how that would look right now) and is viewed as a necessary precaution to help prevent spread of disease and keep from overwhelming health care resources.

 

On the other hand, we have all heard time and again how cruise ships cannot be profitable without sailing full each and every voyage. Low base fares per cabin means the profit comes from onboard sales of things like specialty dining, photos, spa, shore excursions, alcohol, etc.

 

So, how can ships afford to operate with perhaps half as many passengers. Even doubling the base fare to account for the empty cabins will not enable them to make a profit, with only half as many souls on board to spend, spend, spend. And that's without stating the obvious -- that many who sail on the mass market lines will not (and probably cannot) afford to pay twice as much for their cabin....

 

I just don't see how it can work.

 

[cruisemom42]

5 minutes ago, clo said:

So do you think they could require social distancing and other things like we've been living with for these last couple of months? I'd like to see that happen. Honestly.

 

As posted by Host Kat above, part of the No Sail Order states that cruise lines must have plans approved for dealing with COVID-19 in order to begin sailing prior to the expiration of the order.

 

I have no idea what guidelines they have been given, but I have to imagine that in some respects they must bear resemblance to the Phased reopening plans provided to states -- hence social distancing would have to be considered.

 

[lenquixote66]

50 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Political posturings?  Surely you jest.  Consider the cruise line efforts to rid themselves of Norovirus,  Their plans sounded good, the onboard efforts are obvious, and the Noro outbreaks continue unabated.  The first cruise line plans for COVID-19 (which CLIA tried to sell to the White House) were largely about putting all kinds of restrictions on old folks!   But once they realized that such a policy is biting one of the hands that feed they pivoted to other policies that will not be effective.  Simply consider any cruise with only 1 person who becomes ill.  What then?  No ports will accept the ship?  Passengers will be confined to their cabins for 10 -20 years at soft labor?  etc etc.  Yes, some folks want to apply "politics" to anything including a public health crises.  But having spent over 35 years of my life in the healthcare/government world I tend to ignore all the politics and simply deal with facts.  OMG!  As to vaccines, I have previously posted that when I worked with the HIV/AIDs epidemic we heard lectures from experts (including Dr Anthony Fauci) about the soon to come vaccine.  That was about 35 years ago and there is still is no vaccine.

 

Forgive me for being a bit of a skeptic, but after more than 40 years of extensive cruising I have had very good teachers.  The fact is that we have a nasty virus that is going to be with us for a while.  There is little that cruise lines can do to effectively deal with this virus just like there is little they can do to deal with Norovirus, Flu, etc.  They will take the usual PR steps to try and give us all a good level of confidence and many of us will take our chances on future cruises.

 

Hank

Having spent 31 years of my life in the healthcare/government world I concur with your assessment.

[clo]

4 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

So, how can ships afford to operate with perhaps half as many passengers.

I'm on a food site and the talk is that restaurants can't make it when they have half as many customers. Their profit margins are too slim.  I'm speculating that IF there's a solid vaccine (ever) and over a few years with fewer and milder cases (hopefully) then the restrictions will be lifted. From a business standpoint it's going to be a big issue IMO. Thanks as always for your input.

[John Bull]

2 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Hmmm what an idea.  I can see a "time menu" on each table that sets forth the extra charges for any extra time you spend at your table.  If you don't finish your dinner in 59 minutes you will pay an extra $20 for every 10 minutes?  Of course that menu will be on  paper (that will self destruct after 59 minutes) and next to the menu of all the pricy add-ons such as $25 for a cup of real small batch coffee.  I guess they could also put large pexiglass panels on the tables to separate all the diners.  But of course they would be able to communicate through texting at $5 per minute.

 

Hank

P.S.  During this COVID-19 panic, keeping one's humor (humour for you Brits) is important.  But I do suspect that nobody is laughing at the main offices of cruise lines.

 

 

Hi, Hank,

 

That's perhaps a bit over-cooked, even for the land of add-ons. 

Methinks you've been over-indulging in the evil black Irish stuff during your lock-down 

 

I do have some sympathy for the cruise lines (yes, astonishing - JB expressing sympathy for cruise lines ) because they will be amongst the hardest-hit for the reasons in your previous post.

A patron in a bar or restaurant or even a hotel goes down with the virus - were they infected there or elsewhere? Nobody's going to be locked-down in a restaurant or bar (though the idea does have some appeal )

But cruise ships have the disadvantages as in your previous post. I have no wish to be locked-into a ship because another passenger is diagnosed. Or go on a cruise to nowhere because ports have said "we won't allow you to berth here".

And a lot of cruise passengers have to fly -  & flying is one thing JB won't be doing til a vaccine is available.

 

I don't expect there to be any (sea-going) mass-market cruises until the Fall, or next Spring in Europe, and that depends on a vaccine.

Tough times for cruise lines.

 

Stay safe & sane, Hank

(I'm at least staying safe) 

 

JB 

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, Elaine5715 said:

The CDC does not control the cruise industry

You are right when it comes to day-to—day operations — but an entity which has pretty strong say over whether you can conduct your business at all should be seen as having some “control” over what you do.

[clo]

2 minutes ago, John Bull said:

I have no wish to be locked-into a ship because another passenger is diagnosed. Or go on a cruise to nowhere because ports have said "we won't allow you to berth here".

And a lot of cruise passengers have to fly -  & flying is one thing JB won't be doing til a vaccine is available.

This, this, this and this. 

 

I've talked to a whole lot of people 'our age' and we are pretty solid that life will never be the same again. And that may be that some things go away...and that could be cruising. And we also won't be flying - maybe a 90 minutes to Seattle with a good mask - without a vaccine.