Ruby Princess - Special Inquiry - Evidence To Date

[OzKiwiJJ]

1 hour ago, Cruisegroover said:

Yes some interesting things said this morning. I am pretty sure in earlier hearings NSW Health were aware of the lack of swabs onboard before sailing as they gave to the doctor a box. My question is if NSW Health were aware of this and it was a NSW Health requirement that all ships not just Ruby had an adequate supply why was Ruby given permission to leave? 

 

As for the lack of swabs it has been clearly documented that in that early period of Feb/Mar there was a huge shortage of test kits and PPE so that question for me would be did they try and had trouble or did they not care to try hard enough.

And with 20-20 hindsight the lack of swabs turned out to be a disaster.

 

They probably had very little time to source them. There were shortages of the swabs in both Australia and the US (significant shortages in that case). As I recall Australia was only testing people who had obvious symptoms around that time, and for some weeks after that. I don't think they opened up the testing more until late April / early May.

[NSWP]

4 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

And with 20-20 hindsight the lack of swabs turned out to be a disaster.

 

They probably had very little time to source them. There were shortages of the swabs in both Australia and the US (significant shortages in that case). As I recall Australia was only testing people who had obvious symptoms around that time, and for some weeks after that. I don't think they opened up the testing more until late April / early May.

Carnival Australia will be using the time worn excuse if it goes to court - 'Error of Judgement.' 😇

[OzKiwiJJ]

1 minute ago, NSWP said:

Carnival Australia will be using the time worn excuse if it goes to court - 'Error of Judgement.' 😇

In that particular case it's probably quite true. The concept was that Australia was safe to cruise in still, and it may very well have been except nobody took into account the fact that 900+ passengers were coming from overseas, particularly from countries where the virus was ramping up quite significantly.

[BRANDEE]

30 minutes ago, NSWP said:

Hate to say it, but Carnival will not escape the noose at the wash up.  Nor will other agencies, State and Federal.  Meanwhile the lawyers representing those in the class action and other claims will be waiting in the wings.  Lets make no bones about it, at the end of the day there will be some big settlements out of court on this.

 

 

I agree with you.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with Mr. Beasley about telling the passengers that there might be covid on board.  Without one case proof, is it like yelling fire in a theater?  Not really sure.  Three days of all the passengers quarantined in their rooms ..panic as the ship sailed back to Sydney?  Should the doctor have lied and announced an outbreak of noro and all stay in cabins for meals? Cancel shows and activities?  Not as "easy" as he makes it sound.  Yes, the passengers do have a right to make their own decision..but based on maybe....

How come no questions to either NSWH or Princess about all the other ships coming into Sydney that week...did they all have the right number of swabs??  

Mr. Little is an incident commander of a ramshackled system...love the way Commissioner Walker describes things!

[NSWP]

2 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

In that particular case it's probably quite true. The concept was that Australia was safe to cruise in still, and it may very well have been except nobody took into account the fact that 900+ passengers were coming from overseas, particularly from countries where the virus was ramping up quite significantly.

Spot on.

[NSWP]

3 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

 

 

I agree with you.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with Mr. Beasley about telling the passengers that there might be covid on board.  Without one case proof, is it like yelling fire in a theater?  Not really sure.  Three days of all the passengers quarantined in their rooms ..panic as the ship sailed back to Sydney?  Should the doctor have lied and announced an outbreak of noro and all stay in cabins for meals? Cancel shows and activities?  Not as "easy" as he makes it sound.  Yes, the passengers do have a right to make their own decision..but based on maybe....

How come no questions to either NSWH or Princess about all the other ships coming into Sydney that week...did they all have the right number of swabs??  

Mr. Little is an incident commander of a ramshackled system...love the way Commissioner Walker describes things!

Thank you, how is City of New York coping now with CoVid? Are the numbers still alarming? 

Edited June 26, 2020 by NSWP

[OzKiwiJJ]

Just now, BRANDEE said:

 

 

I agree with you.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with Mr. Beasley about telling the passengers that there might be covid on board.  Without one case proof, is it like yelling fire in a theater?  Not really sure.  Three days of all the passengers quarantined in their rooms ..panic as the ship sailed back to Sydney?  Should the doctor have lied and announced an outbreak of noro and all stay in cabins for meals? Cancel shows and activities?  Not as "easy" as he makes it sound.  Yes, the passengers do have a right to make their own decision..but based on maybe....

How come no questions to either NSWH or Princess about all the other ships coming into Sydney that week...did they all have the right number of swabs??  

Mr. Little is an incident commander of a ramshackled system...love the way Commissioner Walker describes things!

And I agree with you, BRANDEE. There may have been a distinct risk of panic breaking out if it was announced that Covid-19 was onboard. Also even with norovirus outbreaks they don't confine all passengers to cabins, just those that are ill. It must have been a very difficult situation.

 

How are things going with you? The US Covid-19 stats are looking very scary at the moment.  

[BRANDEE]

1 minute ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

And I agree with you, BRANDEE. There may have been a distinct risk of panic breaking out if it was announced that Covid-19 was onboard. Also even with norovirus outbreaks they don't confine all passengers to cabins, just those that are ill. It must have been a very difficult situation.

 

How are things going with you? The US Covid-19 stats are looking very scary at the moment.  

 

NSPW and OzKiwi...

 

NYC and Long Island (suburbs) are doing pretty good right now. NY, New Jersey and CT are making restrictions for travel from other states that are very high in numbers.  those are all states (Texas, Florida, Arizona, Alabama to name a few)that opened too early and did not listen to the CDC guidelines of reopening.  Of course, my country is so divided politically, that too many are ignoring the self distancing and use of masks..following trump.  The numbers are getting really scary in those states and not one learned from NYC.  None got prepared.  I am so disgusted with so many of my own friends and family.  They really believe this is a "hoax".  I am very happy to see Australia and New Zealand doing so well...  

 

[OzKiwiJJ]

1 minute ago, BRANDEE said:

 

NSPW and OzKiwi...

 

NYC and Long Island (suburbs) are doing pretty good right now. NY, New Jersey and CT are making restrictions for travel from other states that are very high in numbers.  those are all states (Texas, Florida, Arizona, Alabama to name a few)that opened too early and did not listen to the CDC guidelines of reopening.  Of course, my country is so divided politically, that too many are ignoring the self distancing and use of masks..following trump.  The numbers are getting really scary in those states and not one learned from NYC.  None got prepared.  I am so disgusted with so many of my own friends and family.  They really believe this is a "hoax".  I am very happy to see Australia and New Zealand doing so well...  

 

Unfortunately there are a few people in Australia like that. There have been some clusters in Melbourne recently and interviews with people in those areas were shocking, some of them just don't care - big family gatherings with hugging and kissing, they think it's just another flu.

 

We're being very careful as a student at a nearby school tested positive this week. Hopefully there will be no outbreak as a consequence. Quite a few kids from our street go to that school, and it's also near one of the shopping centre we regularly go to.

[BRANDEE]

1 minute ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Unfortunately there are a few people in Australia like that. There have been some clusters in Melbourne recently and interviews with people in those areas were shocking, some of them just don't care - big family gatherings with hugging and kissing, they think it's just another flu.

 

We're being very careful as a student at a nearby school tested positive this week. Hopefully there will be no outbreak as a consequence. Quite a few kids from our street go to that school, and it's also near one of the shopping centre we regularly go to.

 

We are just starting summer here, so everyone wants to go out.  They just opened the beaches in NYC last week and LI is two weeks ahead.  We can eat at restaurants out side..distanced.  No gatherings over 10.  All school graduations cancelled and school has been "home schooled" since March.  Not sure if they will reopen in fall. Weddings cancelled, no funerals..so sad.  Our Governor is very cautious and this makes his very unpopular with many, but our numbers went from 800 dead in one day to under 10.  

Hubby and I are finally feeling good enough to donate plasma next week.  Our blood can be used to save three people each...

[By The Bay]

24 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

How come no questions to either NSWH or Princess about all the other ships coming into Sydney that week...did they all have the right number of swabs?? 

Exactly what I was thinking whilst listening to the hearing today. I was disappointed that Princess sailed whilst knowingly not meeting the requirement to have sufficient swab. If they could not be obtained, they should not have sailed. Profit over the safety of the passengers was the incentive.

[BRANDEE]

2 minutes ago, By The Bay said:

Exactly what I was thinking whilst listening to the hearing today. I was disappointed that Princess sailed whilst knowingly not meeting the requirement to have sufficient swab. If they could not be obtained, they should not have sailed. Profit over the safety of the passengers was the incentive.

Ms Reesler from NSWH said she had to give the doctor on the Ruby 25 swabs...NSWH should have canceled the sailing that day.  Also, Princess, should have followed the rules too..but they are in it for the money.   "Two wrongs don't make a right"!  

Didn't Ms Resseler also testify that NSWH got on board the Ruby on March 8th to swab 30 people..she took those swabs on..looks like not following the rules was done the cruise before, too.  Just no one got caught!

[By The Bay]

3 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

Our Governor is very cautious and this makes his very unpopular with many, but our numbers went from 800 dead in one day to under 10.  He, and the compliant New Yorker's, have saved so many lives, well done.

 

Hubby and I are finally feeling good enough to donate plasma next week.  Our blood can be used to save three people each.

That is so generous of you both. Congratulations.

 

[Aus Traveller]

What difference would it have made if Princess had a couple of hundred swabs on board the 8th March cruise? Having the swabs does nothing. It is the later testing that shows whether the person has COVID or not and when the swabs that were taken on the Ruby were sent to the lab, they were not tested until late in the day. The positive result was sent (emailed I believe) to NSW Health at 9pm but no-one looked at it until the next day. Nothing would have been different except the numbers if they had an unlimited supply of swabs.

[By The Bay]

1 minute ago, Aus Traveller said:

What difference would it have made if Princess had a couple of hundred swabs on board the 8th March cruise?

They would have been following the requirement of the order issued by NSW Health. Without the swabs, they were deifying that order. The other problem was that the swabs were not analysed before the passengers were dis-embarked. Hindsight is 20/20.

[Ondine]

3 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

What difference would it have made if Princess had a couple of hundred swabs on board the 8th March cruise? Having the swabs does nothing. It is the later testing that shows whether the person has COVID or not and when the swabs that were taken on the Ruby were sent to the lab, they were not tested until late in the day. The positive result was sent (emailed I believe) to NSW Health at 9pm but no-one looked at it until the next day. Nothing would have been different except the numbers if they had an unlimited supply of swabs.

 

Totally agree - except that they could have then sent all the swabs away to get them tested the night before prior to letting passengers debark.  Not sure how long it would take to test several thousand swabs.  Passengers and crew.

 

The Commissioner keeps saying that they had no swabs yet it is also stated that they had 20 - 25.  Let's don't forget that the swabs taken in Wellington came back negative so why would  the doctor think that COVID was on board and tell the passengers.  As Brandee said there would have been panic onboard if they suggested that COVID was onboard.  Imagine all those older passengers stuck on a ship in the middle of the Tasman for several days worried about getting the virus.  Not nice.

 

Thought the Commissioner today was pressuring the witness to say what he wanted to hear and not what the witness wanted to say.  Not good.  I wonder if Border Force will have to come and explain the rather unusual instructions about self isolating.

[Cyrix400]

A short summary of today's proceedings:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/cruise-line-executive-probed-on-ruby-princess-supply-lapse-20200626-p556l2.html   

If pay wall, try using another browser.

Cruise line executive probed on Ruby Princess supply lapse

 

First few paras are:

"  A Carnival Australia executive says he was unaware the ill-fated Ruby Princess cruise ship was low on medical supplies and swabs for on-board COVID-19 tests.

Carnival Australia guest experience senior vice president Peter Little told the Special Commission of Inquiry into the Ruby Princess that he was responsible for circulating NSW Health's enhanced COVID-19 cruise ship protocols - dated February 22 - to health personnel on the ship.

Cruise companies were informed swabs were to be taken from passengers with respiratory or influenza-like illness who had travelled to countries of COVID-19 concern.

Not complying with this could affect a ship's ability to dock at NSW ports."

 

[OzKiwiJJ]

52 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

 

Hubby and I are finally feeling good enough to donate plasma next week.  Our blood can be used to save three people each...

That's really great to hear. 😘

[OzKiwiJJ]

52 minutes ago, By The Bay said:

 Profit over the safety of the passengers was the incentive.

That's the standard line but I don't believe it, especially of Princess who had already gone though the Diamond Princess outbreak, which must have cost them millions.

 

Sure, cruise lines have to make a profit otherwise they'll be out of business, but they also put together a very good package including meals and excellent entertainment to ensure their guests have a great holiday, and cruising is exceptionally good value compared with lkand-based holidays here. So I think a good part of their motivation was to keep their guests happy. Cruises cancelled at the last minute don't make people very happy.

 

[BRANDEE]

6 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

What difference would it have made if Princess had a couple of hundred swabs on board the 8th March cruise? Having the swabs does nothing. It is the later testing that shows whether the person has COVID or not and when the swabs that were taken on the Ruby were sent to the lab, they were not tested until late in the day. The positive result was sent (emailed I believe) to NSW Health at 9pm but no-one looked at it until the next day. Nothing would have been different except the numbers if they had an unlimited supply of swabs.

Totally agree...One positive or 2800 positive...NSWH let everyone off the ship before one test result..It would have made no difference. I wonder if any ship that came into Sydney harbour that week had enough swabs to be in compliance. 

Commissioner Walker just wanted Mr. Little to admit he did not do his due diligence. In US courts, Commissioner Walker would have been accused of badgering the witness with his reasking the same question so many times..If you ask enough times, eventually a witness will say.."your right, I'm wrong..stop asking"  lol   The only inquiry I ever saw in the US was a military court martial.  I've served as a juror on a trial..painfully boring and long..nothing like on TV.

[Cyrix400]

13 hours ago, BRANDEE said:

 

 

I agree with you.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with Mr. Beasley about telling the passengers that there might be covid on board.  Without one case proof, is it like yelling fire in a theater?  Not really sure.  Three days of all the passengers quarantined in their rooms ..panic as the ship sailed back to Sydney?  Should the doctor have lied and announced an outbreak of noro and all stay in cabins for meals? Cancel shows and activities?  Not as "easy" as he makes it sound.  Yes, the passengers do have a right to make their own decision..but based on maybe....  

How come no questions to either NSWH or Princess about all the other ships coming into Sydney that week...did they all have the right number of swabs??  

Mr. Little is an incident commander of a ramshackled system...love the way Commissioner Walker describes things!

 

The Commissioner asked Mr Little essentially if, as a part of total guest experience (Mr Little's area of responsibility) , should not  104 people with suspected Covid symptoms (passengers AND also  the  crew) have been told of this - to enable pax to take any decisions they might wish to take - in view of their own tolerance to risk and other medical conditions (e.g not to go to the shows or to order room service - note that a large number of pax of advanced age on this cruise).  No talk of quarantine of these pax in their rooms , as far as I understood.

 

Unfortunately, the Inquiry is specifically limited to Ruby Princess - so the situation re other ships and swabs is not within the terms of reference.

 

Also the Commissioner  is generally very clearly setting out his thinking and forming  a  preliminary view about issues - and he tries to give witnesses (including Mr Little and others) every opportunity to provide additional explanation and evidence - in other words  there is  no 'ambushing' and making an adverse finding, without extending procedural fairness to everyone (and the Counsel for Carnival did not object to most of the questioning of Mr Little ).  See previous  examples in post 268 including:

" At this moment it seems to me that what this cruise line conduct by omission, or worse by deliberate choice, produced a situation whereby the Australian public did not have the benefit of as many samples for lab  testing  as the Australian health officials had required should be the case - in breach of ..... requirements in this regard of which the cruise line was aware" (There was NOT  mention in Mr Little's statement of any concern by Carnival with the lack of required swabs)

And another quote, when the Commissioner was commenting about the role of CLIA (Cruise Lines Industry Association) in its negotiation with NSW Health about the new enhanced procedures for ships: " Why shouldn't I get the impression from this that CLIA wasn't all that keen on co-operating with the public health improvements?" - after noting that CLIA is a lobby group, representing commercial i.e. financial interests of its members.   Mr Little replied  only that the cruise line was working cooperatively with public health departments.

 

As I noted before, the Commissioner does not miss anything - when Mr Little was questioned about his role of Incident Commander   from March 2020 (to manage covid related issues) in the grandly named 'Project Gladiator', he was asked exactly whom he was commanding and what these people were exactly doing . And he was probed why the up to date awareness of covid matters, as a matter of elementary good practice, have not been known to 'people like yourself with the title of Incident Commander'

 

And finally the evidence of short email form Mr Jackson, Fleet Operations Carnival to Mr Little on 17 March (2 days before arrival) that 'The Ruby numbers gone berserk' in the last 48 hours.

 

 

 

[By The Bay]

15 minutes ago, Cyrix400 said:

 

Unfortunately, the Inquiry is specifically limited to Ruby Princess - so the situation re other ships and swabs is not within the terms of reference.

 

Thanks again for your excellent summary.

Edited June 26, 2020 by By The Bay

[Cyrix400]

26 minutes ago, By The Bay said:

Thanks again for your excellent summary.

 Glad you found it interesting.

I forgot to mention that Monday Inquiry hearing  has only 1 doctor, Dr Shelby (sp?) and is starting at 2.00 pm

 

The statement from Dr Tarling, Chief Med Officer, Carnival Corp - still to come - should also prove interesting reading.

[By The Bay]

2 minutes ago, Cyrix400 said:

The statement from Dr Tarling, Chief Med Officer, Carnival Corp - still to come - should also prove interesting reading.

I hope he has the answer as to why the ship sailed without the swabs as directed by Health NSW.

[Porky55]

15 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

What difference would it have made if Princess had a couple of hundred swabs on board the 8th March cruise? Having the swabs does nothing. It is the later testing that shows whether the person has COVID or not and when the swabs that were taken on the Ruby were sent to the lab, they were not tested until late in the day. The positive result was sent (emailed I believe) to NSW Health at 9pm but no-one looked at it until the next day. Nothing would have been different except the numbers if they had an unlimited supply of swabs.

Agree Aus Traveller - Ruby could have had 120 swabs on board and used all of them - NSW Health HAD been given 6 swabs from memory 🤔 and chose NOT to fast track those?  So what makes anybody think that a larger quantity would have made NSWH test these faster or keep passengers on board longer? The magic bullet - Covid 19 swabs 🙄
Got me confused .......

Edited June 26, 2020 by Porky55