Ruby Princess - Special Inquiry - Evidence To Date

[christodan]

26 minutes ago, By The Bay said:

I hope he has the answer as to why the ship sailed without the swabs as directed by Health NSW.

Does anyone know if the swabs processed in Wellington (?) were from the ship or the shore? Maybe Princess thought they could get supplies in NZ if there was a shortage here? 

[BRANDEE]

2 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

 

The Commissioner asked Mr Little essentially if, as a part of total guest experience (Mr Little's area of responsibility) , should not  104 people with suspected Covid symptoms (passengers AND also  the  crew) have been told of this - to enable pax to take any decisions they might wish to take - in view of their own tolerance to risk and other medical conditions (e.g not to go to the shows or to order room service - note that a large number of pax of advanced age on this cruise).  No talk of quarantine of these pax in their rooms , as far as I understood.

 

Unfortunately, the Inquiry is specifically limited to Ruby Princess - so the situation re other ships and swabs is not within the terms of reference.

 

Also the Commissioner  is generally very clearly setting out his thinking and forming  a  preliminary view about issues - and he tries to give witnesses (including Mr Little and others) every opportunity to provide additional explanation and evidence - in other words  there is  no 'ambushing' and making an adverse finding, without extending procedural fairness to everyone (and the Counsel for Carnival did not object to most of the questioning of Mr Little ).  See previous  examples in post 268 including:

" At this moment it seems to me that what this cruise line conduct by omission, or worse by deliberate choice, produced a situation whereby the Australian public did not have the benefit of as many samples for lab  testing  as the Australian health officials had required should be the case - in breach of ..... requirements in this regard of which the cruise line was aware" (There was NOT  mention in Mr Little's statement of any concern by Carnival with the lack of required swabs)

 

And another quote, when the Commissioner was commenting about the role of CLIA (Cruise Lines Industry Association) in its negotiation with NSW Health about the new enhanced procedures for ships: " Why shouldn't I get the impression from this that CLIA wasn't all that keen on co-operating with the public health improvements?" - after noting that CLIA is a lobby group, representing commercial i.e. financial interests of its members.   Mr Little replied  only that the cruise line was working cooperatively with public health departments.

 

 

As I noted before, the Commissioner does not miss anything - when Mr Little was questioned about his role of Incident Commander   from March 2020 (to manage covid related issues) in the grandly named 'Project Gladiator', he was asked exactly whom he was commanding and what these people were exactly doing . And he was probed why the up to date awareness of covid matters, as a matter of elementary good practice, have not been known to 'people like yourself with the title of Incident Commander'

 

 

And finally the evidence of short email form Mr Jackson, Fleet Operations Carnival to Mr Little on 17 March (2 days before arrival) that 'The Ruby numbers gone berserk' in the last 48 hours.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Commissioner Walker is extremely thorough.  As I said earlier, his quips are stinging.  Mr. Little is the Incident Commander of a ramshackled system.   And yes, the term Project Gladiator did not go over well.  I'm not sure he would have been able to constantly reask the same question to a witness here in the US courts.

 

Regarding, telling the passengers that there was a suspected case of covid would have been wrong, in my opinion. I did not take Mr. Beasley's question to mean just telling the 104 with flu like symptoms that they might have covid.  I understood it as the whole ship should have been made aware.  I think panic and chaos would have been the result and there was absolutely no positive case.  Imagine three days of sailing with terrified passengers based on a hunch.  Passengers were being told to cover coughs and sneezes, report fever and chills, use own bathroom, do not shake hands and wash hands from the beginning of the cruise.  All passengers being treated for flu like symptoms should have been quarantined, that is usually standard on any cruise. But it looks like a lot of policies and practices were ignored!

[BRANDEE]

2 hours ago, christodan said:

Does anyone know if the swabs processed in Wellington (?) were from the ship or the shore? Maybe Princess thought they could get supplies in NZ if there was a shortage here? 

They were 5 of the 25 given to doctor by Ms. Ressler on March 8th.

[Docker123]

Brandee, this is not a trial and the commissioner is not filling the role of an attorney.

 

He is the presiding officer of an inquiry and his role is to find something resembling the truth.

 

Best equation is probably a Senate/Congressional hearing, and the members are not limited on badgering as they would be in court.

 

[BRANDEE]

24 minutes ago, Docker123 said:

Brandee, this is not a trial and the commissioner is not filling the role of an attorney.

 

He is the presiding officer of an inquiry and his role is to find something resembling the truth.

 

Best equation is probably a Senate/Congressional hearing, and the members are not limited on badgering as they would be in court.

 

Thank you for the comparison...I have watched congressional hearings and there is a similar tone.  I have been watching all the sessions live and very interested and intrigued.  (Just lack of sleep with the time difference).  

[Cyrix400]

22 hours ago, By The Bay said:

Exactly what I was thinking whilst listening to the hearing today. I was disappointed that Princess sailed whilst knowingly not meeting the requirement to have sufficient swab. If they could not be obtained, they should not have sailed. Profit over the safety of the passengers was the incentive.

 

6 hours ago, Porky55 said:

Agree Aus Traveller - Ruby could have had 120 swabs on board and used all of them - NSW Health HAD been given 6 swabs from memory 🤔 and chose NOT to fast track those?  So what makes anybody think that a larger quantity would have made NSWH test these faster or keep passengers on board longer? The magic bullet - Covid 19 swabs 🙄
Got me confused .......

 

NSW Health cannot escape the blame for assessing the ship as  a low risk (on outdated covid- related criterias, without an on board inspection and with 104 pax with flu like symptoms)  - and for the delay in the lab to undertake these priority tests.  This is a given.

 

On the other hand Princess Cruises (i.e Carnival Corp) could have easily come from this debacle a whole lot  better if:

 

- they  swabbed all these104 people with flu like symptoms for covid, as per NSW  Health requirements  (bearing in mind the difficulty in obtaining swabs on one hand, but also no apparent special effort to obtain them urgently prior to the 8 March cruise  by the ship doctor/ and  Princess procurement people)

 

 -   if the overburden ship doctor sent the updated pax respiratory illness log to NSW Health within the time frame required prior to the ship arrival.

 

- and if Princess had available the 14 days travel history of every pax and crew prior to the joining of the ship (as was required)

[Aus Traveller]

5 hours ago, BRANDEE said:

  All passengers being treated for flu like symptoms should have been quarantined, that is usually standard on any cruise. But it looks like a lot of policies and practices were ignored!

I thought that the ship's doctor testified that passengers with flu-like symptoms were confined to their cabins.

 

I agree that it would have been irresponsible to tell passengers they might have COVID when there was no positive test.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Aus Traveller

[GUT2407]

6 hours ago, BRANDEE said:

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Commissioner Walker is extremely thorough.  As I said earlier, his quips are stinging.  Mr. Little is the Incident Commander of a ramshackled system.   And yes, the term Project Gladiator did not go over well.  I'm not sure he would have been able to constantly reask the same question to a witness here in the US courts.

 

Regarding, telling the passengers that there was a suspected case of covid would have been wrong, in my opinion. I did not take Mr. Beasley's question to mean just telling the 104 with flu like symptoms that they might have covid.  I understood it as the whole ship should have been made aware.  I think panic and chaos would have been the result and there was absolutely no positive case.  Imagine three days of sailing with terrified passengers based on a hunch.  Passengers were being told to cover coughs and sneezes, report fever and chills, use own bathroom, do not shake hands and wash hands from the beginning of the cruise.  All passengers being treated for flu like symptoms should have been quarantined, that is usually standard on any cruise. But it looks like a lot of policies and practices were ignored!

Re asking the same question over and over, ummm he is the judge, he makes the rules, ohh and it’s not a trial so the rules of evidence don’t apply.

 

[BRANDEE]

8 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

Re asking the same question over and over, ummm he is the judge, he makes the rules, ohh and it’s not a trial so the rules of evidence don’t apply.

 

TY  ....Docker 123 , yesterday, explained to me that an inquiry is not the same as a trial..different rules and procedures.  Using a Congressional hearing as a comparison..never to old to learn!

[Cyrix400]

A short reflection on the seriousness of Covid - in light of cruise pax evidence

 

The pax stories at the Inquiry show how many times a partner or friends of a person with covid, who spent together most of the time during the cruise,  do NOT get the illness at all.

And how frequently those who start with very mild symptoms (but who may have underlying health conditions) cannot be saved or end up with many long term debilitating problems months afterwards  - lack of energy being one of them. And I read somewhere (have no link) that doctors are very baffled how covid affects other than respiratory body systems.

 

Keep thinking about Mr Moore, the last pax to give evidence. Husband had minor on board sniffles. On return home, their family doctor, who was aware that they had return from Ruby Princess, insisted that they be tested.  Husband positive, not the wife. When the husband developed temperature (but otherwise OK), the family doctor insisted that he get an ambulance and be admitted to hospital. Husband died shortly afterwards. Mrs Moore concluded her evidence by saying that, why nothing can be done about her husband, she hoped to prevent similar problems on other cruises (hard to see what really can be done).

 

And for those hoping to re-start cruising when the safe vaccine will be available - a depressing news is that it may be a long wait. See "Why we may not get a  coronavirus vaccine' - link:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/22/why-we-might-not-get-a-coronavirus-vaccine

 

 

[BRANDEE]

25 minutes ago, Cyrix400 said:

A short reflection on the seriousness of Covid - in light of cruise pax evidence

 

The pax stories at the Inquiry show how many times a partner or friends of a person with covid, who spent together most of the time during the cruise,  do NOT get the illness at all.

And how frequently those who start with very mild symptoms (but who may have underlying health conditions) cannot be saved or end up with many long term debilitating problems months afterwards  - lack of energy being one of them. And I read somewhere (have no link) that doctors are very baffled how covid affects other than respiratory body systems.

 

Keep thinking about Mr Moore, the last pax to give evidence. Husband had minor on board sniffles. On return home, their family doctor, who was aware that they had return from Ruby Princess, insisted that they be tested.  Husband positive, not the wife. When the husband developed temperature (but otherwise OK), the family doctor insisted that he get an ambulance and be admitted to hospital. Husband died shortly afterwards. Mrs Moore concluded her evidence by saying that, why nothing can be done about her husband, she hoped to prevent similar problems on other cruises (hard to see what really can be done).

 

And for those hoping to re-start cruising when the safe vaccine will be available - a depressing news is that it may be a long wait. See "Why we may not get a  coronavirus vaccine' - link:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/22/why-we-might-not-get-a-coronavirus-vaccine

 

 

 

Very interesting article/link...thank you.  Agree it is a depressing read..for the US even worse with our anti science leader.

 

I wonder if stats on those who did get sick and those who died...specifically information of pneumonia and flu immunization was taken into account.  Yearly influenza immunization and lifetime pneumonia immunization is recommended in US but not necessarily done by many. Interested if it made a difference. 

[Pushka]

One of the more recent medical findings is that people who contract the virus can feel reasonably well, but unknown to them their sat levels (blood oxygenation) are very low, and they don't seek hospital treatment because they simply don't feel sick enough. It's possible that the patient referred to above was checked by his Dr and his levels were very low (it's a very simple test using an oximeter on the finger tip) and that's why he sent him to hospital immediately but even then it was too late. 

[Porky55]

2 hours ago, BRANDEE said:

I wonder if stats on those who did get sick and those who died...specifically information of pneumonia and flu immunization was taken into account.  Yearly influenza immunization and lifetime pneumonia immunization is recommended in US but not necessarily done by many. Interested if it made a difference. 

Our influenza vaccines aren’t usually available in Aus until late March / early April.
Would be very surprised if any passenger had current vaccine for flu as it is yearly - and it’s a changing vaccine at the best of times.
This is a very good point BRANDEE 🤔 but some are determined to see Princess as the bad guy in this tragic event - you can’t take legal action against a virus ........

[Cyrix400]

1 hour ago, Pushka said:

One of the more recent medical findings is that people who contract the virus can feel reasonably well, but unknown to them their sat levels (blood oxygenation) are very low, and they don't seek hospital treatment because they simply don't feel sick enough. It's possible that the patient referred to above was checked by his Dr and his levels were very low (it's a very simple test using an oximeter on the finger tip) and that's why he sent him to hospital immediately but even then it was too late. 

 

And much higher number  of people than previously expected have NO symptoms.

 

The real time research by a Dr on board of the covid- stricken Greg Mortimer  on the Antarctic cruise (which had a  medical conference on board  i.e a lot of pax were doctors)  is very interesting - and frightening as well.

 

https://lighthouse.mq.edu.au/article/june-2020/81-of-COVID-positive-passengers-on-Antarctic-cruise-ship-had-no-symptoms-new-study

"Macquarie University respiratory physician Professor Alvin Ing was on the MV Greg Mortimer Antarctic cruise ship when COVID-19 struck the passengers and crew in March. His subsequent research findings raise an alarm about how we may be underestimating the prevalence of the virus".

 

[BRANDEE]

1 hour ago, Porky55 said:

Our influenza vaccines aren’t usually available in Aus until late March / early April.
Would be very surprised if any passenger had current vaccine for flu as it is yearly - and it’s a changing vaccine at the best of times.
This is a very good point BRANDEE 🤔 but some are determined to see Princess as the bad guy in this tragic event - you can’t take legal action against a virus ........

 

Influenza vaccines here in US are, of course, six months after you.  Me, my husband, brother and wife are all very up to date in all vaccines we are told to get by our doctors. We also got the new "Over 65" pneumonia booster last year.  Just wondering if that helped the four of us from developing respiratory problems/symptoms with covid.  

[BRANDEE]

1 hour ago, Pushka said:

One of the more recent medical findings is that people who contract the virus can feel reasonably well, but unknown to them their sat levels (blood oxygenation) are very low, and they don't seek hospital treatment because they simply don't feel sick enough. It's possible that the patient referred to above was checked by his Dr and his levels were very low (it's a very simple test using an oximeter on the finger tip) and that's why he sent him to hospital immediately but even then it was too late. 

 Actually that was my husband's problem and it totally exhausted him and he felt a heaviness in breathing, not a shortness of breath.

FYI: You can put an oximeter app on your smart phone and take your own level whenever. "Pulse Oximeter"  My husband's oxygen level lowers with a mask on and he doesn't feel it until he almost passes out.

[Pushka]

15 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

 Actually that was my husband's problem and it totally exhausted him and he felt a heaviness in breathing, not a shortness of breath.

FYI: You can put an oximeter app on your smart phone and take your own level whenever. "Pulse Oximeter"  My husband's oxygen level lowers with a mask on and he doesn't feel it until he almost passes out.

And that indeed is a significant warning sign. It's great that you are on the mend but it seems no thanks to the Health system. We ended up buying one from Amazon although we only know of one neighbour who actually developed Covid. 

[possum52]

1 hour ago, BRANDEE said:

 

Influenza vaccines here in US are, of course, six months after you.  Me, my husband, brother and wife are all very up to date in all vaccines we are told to get by our doctors. We also got the new "Over 65" pneumonia booster last year.  Just wondering if that helped the four of us from developing respiratory problems/symptoms with covid.  

BRANDEE, I think our flu vaccine is based on what strains are prevalent in the northern winter. 
 

Leigh

[Porky55]

1 hour ago, Cyrix400 said:

And much higher number  of people than previously expected have NO symptoms.

This is so true, take for example the evidence given by Graeme Lake and the tragic loss of his wife Karla to Covid - her only symptom (which was also another ongoing disease side affect) was a dry cough. This passenger never thought to attend the medical centre during the cruise but could have possibly been Positive much earlier than her testing on the 20th March.

How can ANYONE possibly make any type of fair ruling about this case? 

[NSWP]

2 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

This is so true, take for example the evidence given by Graeme Lake and the tragic loss of his wife Karla to Covid - her only symptom (which was also another ongoing disease side affect) was a dry cough. This passenger never thought to attend the medical centre during the cruise but could have possibly been Positive much earlier than her testing on the 20th March.

How can ANYONE possibly make any type of fair ruling about this case? 

Send it all to the International Court at the Hague in ye olde Netherlands, they will sort it.

[NSWP]

As a related comment. Do you know on Princess ships, the ship's doctors, generally two, operate as a private business. They are not directly employed by Princess, same with shop staff etc.  The doctors have to give a considerable commission from their income derived from passenger consultation fees to Carnival, they also pay a bond to get on the ship.  I was told that by a Princess insider, all top secret.  I am surprised this has not come up at the 'special enquiry.'   Perhaps it has, I am not following it much. I am waiting for Judgement Day.'👮‍♂️

[Porky55]

24 minutes ago, NSWP said:

They are not directly employed by Princess, same with shop staff etc.  The doctors have to give a considerable commission from their income derived from passenger consultation fees to Carnival

Perhaps this will come up this week? Don’t they have more Doctors from Princess scheduled to give evidence? Could you imagine the personal Insurance Cover and Indemnity etc they would need??? 😳 Mind boggling .........

[NSWP]

5 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

Perhaps this will come up this week? Don’t they have more Doctors from Princess scheduled to give evidence? Could you imagine the personal Insurance Cover and Indemnity etc they would need??? 😳 Mind boggling .........

I am not hammering the quality of ship's doctors, but one wonders about their experience and expertise. I have been down to the ship's medical centres on a few occasions, as I have a low immune system as a Coeliac, I pick up any virus going around. Most of the docs I have seen have been South Africans. As was/is the female senior doc on Ruby.

Edited June 28, 2020 by NSWP

[NSWP]

8 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

Perhaps this will come up this week? Don’t they have more Doctors from Princess scheduled to give evidence? Could you imagine the personal Insurance Cover and Indemnity etc they would need??? 😳 Mind boggling .........

Yes, their insurance cover etc would be huge.  I have two local doctors live next door to me, husband and wife, they tell me a few things when we have the odd drop of Chivas Regal.🥃

Edited June 28, 2020 by NSWP

[Blackduck59]

6 minutes ago, NSWP said:

Yes, their insurance cover etc would be huge.  I have two local doctors live next door to me, husband and wife, they tell me a few things when we have the odd drop of Chivas Regal.🥃

 

A wee Dram can help the conversation, to many wee Drams not so much