Ruby Princess - Special Inquiry - Evidence To Date

[christodan]

2 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

And also critical of CARNIVAL, in not taking very seriously NSW Health requirements to have sufficient swabs on board - and really wanting to find  out exactly  WHAT  did Dr Sheppeard do about it,  when she found out that Ruby had ZERO swabs on board  on 7 March (second last cruise) - this was when NSW Health had to give the ship swabs 'at Government expense' , as the Commissioner noted.

 

 

Sounds biased in describing Carnival as not taking it seriously when the ABC website says: "Dr Sheppeard said the department had learnt there was a "practical difficulty" for the industry to secure COVID-19 swabs due to shortages".

 

Big difference in being defiant and not being able to get swabs.

[The_Big_M]

2 hours ago, christodan said:

 

 

Sounds biased in describing Carnival as not taking it seriously when the ABC website says: "Dr Sheppeard said the department had learnt there was a "practical difficulty" for the industry to secure COVID-19 swabs due to shortages".

 

Big difference in being defiant and not being able to get swabs.

 

Exactly. 

 

I'm sure if they were to spend a million a swab (or some exaggerated amount) they could - but if they're not required to, and it's not really in their ambit, and given the priorities from other countries which did need it, it doesn't make sense for them to.

 

Which controller is going to spend ridiculous sums of money on something that isn't necessary?

[Porky55]

“ and really wanting to find  out “exactly  WHAT  did Dr Sheppeard do about it,  when she found out that Ruby had ZERO swabs on board  on 7 March (second last cruise) - this was when NSW Health had to give the ship swabs 'at Government expense' ,“
 

We were on the  second to last cruise on Ruby Princess - which left Sydney on the 24th Feb and returned into Sydney on the 8th March.

If you read all the documents - they “NSW every Dept”  - had only just begun formulating plans for Covid on the 22nd Feb. 
How then could the “second to last cruise” (ours) have even been supplied with testing kits on the 24th Feb so they were on the ship on the 7 March (actually the 8 March)? 

I am positive that Bret Walker SC is aware of these facts too.

[Porky55]

Following from earlier and Covid swabs “should have been on the earlier cruise”: (by this time Ruby had been at sea for two days)
 

From: Exert from 17 June Dr Vicki Sheppeard

 

 I am currently Deputy Director of the Public Health Unit in the South Eastern Sydney Local Health District. I have been in this role since January 2020. I am the deputy to Professor Mark Ferson.

 

On 28 February, at 3.17pm, I circulated a draft I described, in my cover email, as a “SOP” for review (the Draft SOP). “SOP” stands for “Standard Operating Procedure”. The purpose of the document is set out under the heading “Context”, namely, to provide guidance and to delineate “responsibilities for public health units and the Public Health Emergency Operations Centre” (which sits within the Ministry) “in the risk assessment and screening process for cruise ships docking in Sydney”. The draft SOP I circulated included a number of draft attachments, including a draft email to be sent to ships 48 hours prior to arrival (Attachment 1), an updated version of the 16 February Risk Assessment Form (Attachment 2), and a number of further draft emails to be sent to ships in
11

differing scenarios. My email and its attachment appear at Tab 28. I note in particular:
(1) The SOP states that NSW Health should email cruise ship companies requesting that ships “[e]nsure all passengers with respiratory symptoms and/or fever are appropriately isolated while on board...” (emphasis added). I used the word “appropriately” in this context to give discretion to the ship’s doctor about which ill people need to be isolated, consistent with my observations above that isolation may not be appropriate for someone with a runny nose or mild cough, particularly if due to another known cause, and so the isolation of passengers with respiratory symptoms absent a fever was a matter appropriately left to the ship’s doctor’s discretion. I also ask my colleagues if they think that isolating any passengers or crew with current respiratory symptoms is too broad for the same reason.
(2) This version of the SOP only requires the doctor to collect and retain a second swab for people with a negative influenza test or a risk of exposure to COVID as most ships had a shortage of swabs, and hence had been reluctant to collect two swabs on every patient. In my view it was pragmatic just to collect a COVID-19 swab where there was a higher chance of the person having COVID-19.

[Cyrix400]

On 6/16/2020 at 1:17 PM, NSWP said:

I just have a feeling in my old bones that the cruise line, Federal/State Govt and their agencies, i.e. Border Force, NSW Health, are all going to get caned at the end of the day, standby.👮‍♂️

 

I strongly agree with you - on the evidence so far. Two other small points:

 

The Commissioner mentioned that, as a matter of administrative law, it is not known if so called pratique (defined as permission granted to a ship to have dealings with a port, given after quarantine or on showing a clean bill of health) was formally given, and if so  by whom. This is Commonwealth power delegated in  respect of Human BioSecurity to the NSW Health.

 

Regarding the SWABS issue, even though they might have been difficult but not impossible to obtain (NSW Health had them & gave the ship a box of swabs)  the Commissioner is suggesting that "The notion that these very large corporations were unable to procure swabs for love or money strikes me as almost impossible to believe could be seriously advanced, do you understand?" Commissioner Bret Walker SC asked " ( Dr S)"

 

This is the strongest criticism of Carnival so far (other than the delay in providing an updated health report). The suggestion here is that the Carnival did not take the new NSW Health swabbing requirements seriously enough, and that Dr Sheppeard after realizing that this on 8 March, did not pursue/ escalated her concerns re this i.e basically did nothing.

 

Interesting if anybody from Carnival US office (Vice President responsible for the Aust cruise  operations or the  Carnival Chief Medical Officer Dr Tarling or his representative) will be asked to provide statements/ give evidence.

 

 

[nnps]

I seem to remember from back then that procuring swabs for testing was found very difficult for many jurisdictions all over the world. I remember Trump carrying on about how clever he was to have managed to get some.

[Aus Traveller]

57 minutes ago, nnps said:

I seem to remember from back then that procuring swabs for testing was found very difficult for many jurisdictions all over the world. I remember Trump carrying on about how clever he was to have managed to get some.

I also recall that. The shortage is why testing of people was restricted to those who had a good chance of being positive to COVID. It is only in the last six weeks or so that just anyone can have a test.

[OzKiwiJJ]

15 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

I also recall that. The shortage is why testing of people was restricted to those who had a good chance of being positive to COVID. It is only in the last six weeks or so that just anyone can have a test.

Ditto. 

People were requested to only get tested if they had recently arrived from overseas, or had contact with someone who had recently arrived from overseas, or presented with severe symptoms.

[Cruisegroover]

1 hour ago, nnps said:

I seem to remember from back then that procuring swabs for testing was found very difficult for many jurisdictions all over the world. I remember Trump carrying on about how clever he was to have managed to get some.

Yes that there was a shortage and I know of 2 people who had tests around that time and actually made up symptoms to get the test. I remembering thinking how selfish as that was a waste of a test.

 

In the updated Enhanced COVID-19 Procedures for the Cruise Line Industry dated 9 March the requirement of for swabs and the type of preferred swabs was mentioned. I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere before but that does not mean it wasn't mentioned in transcripts etc not published yet. So more questions arise as to when Carnival started to source swabs supplies.

 

Supplies

Each cruise ship should ensure that they have sufficient supplies of materials to manage a respiratory outbreak on board, including:

• face masks and alcohol hand rub for passengers and crew with acute respiratory illness

• personal protective equipment for clinic staff 

• sterile transport swabs for respiratory sample collection Flexible flocked swabs and universal transport medium are preferred. For example, COPAN #321C Universal Transport Medium with Regular FLOQ Swab and Nasopharyngeal FLOQ Swab are held by NSW Health for outbreak response.

 

[Cyrix400]

1 hour ago, Cruisegroover said:

Yes that there was a shortage and I know of 2 people who had tests around that time and actually made up symptoms to get the test. I remembering thinking how selfish as that was a waste of a test.

 

In the updated Enhanced COVID-19 Procedures for the Cruise Line Industry dated 9 March the requirement of for swabs and the type of preferred swabs was mentioned. I haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere before but that does not mean it wasn't mentioned in transcripts etc not published yet. So more questions arise as to when Carnival started to source swabs supplies.

 

Supplies

Each cruise ship should ensure that they have sufficient supplies of materials to manage a respiratory outbreak on board, including:

• face masks and alcohol hand rub for passengers and crew with acute respiratory illness

• personal protective equipment for clinic staff 

• sterile transport swabs for respiratory sample collection Flexible flocked swabs and universal transport medium are preferred. For example, COPAN #321C Universal Transport Medium with Regular FLOQ Swab and Nasopharyngeal FLOQ Swab are held by NSW Health for outbreak response.

 

 

In light of the Diamond Princess Japan Covid problems in Feb 2020, no evidence appears to have emerged to date at the  Roby Princess Inquiry that Carnival HQ was greatly concerned  afterwards with updating  the cruise ships  with the  changing  information about Covid 19. (Ruby Princess received no updates from HO)

 

Forgetting about NSW Health new swabbing requirements for a moment, ships always carried some swabs to test on board for flu (they had the facilities to do that). Should not Carnival HQ medical bosses organised/ ensured that ships carry many more swabs, knowing of the  international concern with Covid19 and the likely  requirements by governments  for Covid swabbing on board??

[BRANDEE]

3 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

I also recall that. The shortage is why testing of people was restricted to those who had a good chance of being positive to COVID. It is only in the last six weeks or so that just anyone can have a test.

Still not available to everyone in the US..Please do not listen to trumps bullshouts.  

[Porky55]

6 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

This is the strongest criticism of Carnival so far (other than the delay in providing an updated health report). The suggestion here is that the Carnival did not take the new NSW Health swabbing requirements seriously enough, and that Dr Sheppeard after realizing that this on 8 March, did not pursue/ escalated her concerns re this i.e basically did nothing.

Are they discussing the Ruby Princess cruise departing on the 24th Feb and returning on the 8th March not having Covid swabs?

Because I was one of the passengers who remained on the ship on the morning of the 8th March to be checked by the boarding NSWH officials. There were app. 150 passengers who had a cough or runny nose. To my knowledge I think six were tested for Covid (which NSWH happily supplied on the day) but due to the low number (6) the ship debarked at around 11:00am, on the 8th March. We were told IF any passengers proved positive we would be notified. THAT cruise was clear - NO CASES AT ALL!! Or we would have been notified. All this has been covered in the earlier Ruby Princess Police Investigation - discussion.

If we are talking about the 8 Mar to 19 Mar cruise - whole different set of requirements by that time wasn’t there?? This cruise HAD Covid swabs, NSW Health delayed the testing of these was my understanding?? I thought this was the cruise that was the focus of the Commission?

Edited June 18, 2020 by Porky55

[Porky55]

2 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

Forgetting about NSW Health new swabbing requirements for a moment, ships always carried some swabs to test on board for flu (they had the facilities to do that). Should not Carnival HQ medical bosses organised/ ensured that ships carry many more swabs, knowing of the  international concern with Covid19 and the likely  requirements by governments  for Covid swabbing on board??

If passengers don’t present to the Medial Centre, they can’t be tested can they? Regardless of the quantity of swabs on board.

Ruby definitely had flu test swabs on board. NSWH were the ones who decided that the testing of these very same swabs were not of any priority.

They went over these facts first days of the Commission.

[Aus Traveller]

2 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

 

In light of the Diamond Princess Japan Covid problems in Feb 2020, no evidence appears to have emerged to date at the  Roby Princess Inquiry that Carnival HQ was greatly concerned  afterwards with updating  the cruise ships  with the  changing  information about Covid 19. (Ruby Princess received no updates from HO)

 

Forgetting about NSW Health new swabbing requirements for a moment, ships always carried some swabs to test on board for flu (they had the facilities to do that). Should not Carnival HQ medical bosses organised/ ensured that ships carry many more swabs, knowing of the  international concern with Covid19 and the likely  requirements by governments  for Covid swabbing on board??

I find the comment that "Ruby Princess received no updates from HO" strange.(BTW I do not direct this comment to you.) We were on the Sea Princess 23rd Feb to 8th March. At the MTP lunch, the Hotel Director told us she was receiving new up-dates and information "every day". I believe it is likely every Princess ship received this information and if it related specifically to Australian government requirements, those particular notices would have gone to Australian-based ships including the Ruby. I don't know if there would have been more updates in the next two weeks. Maybe there was nothing new to add! 

[Porky55]

Totally agree, Ruby staff wasn’t as vocal, but we received daily written updates on the 24th Feb to 8th Mar cruise.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Porky55

[Aus Traveller]

11 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

If passengers don’t present to the Medial Centre, they can’t be tested can they? Regardless of the quantity of swabs on board.

Ruby definitely had flu test swabs on board. NSWH were the ones who decided that the testing of these very same swabs were not of any priority.  They went over these facts first days of the Commission.

It was 36 hours before the test results were available. NSW Health did not direct the lab to process them urgently. Apparently the department was quite happy to let everyone go home and if someone did test positive, they would be notified. It is safe to assume that they did not expect so many 'positives' to emerge later. And so, we have the re-writing of reports etc all after the event and one doctor relying on the internet and the media for some information.

 

I noticed that she said" the Ruby cut its cruise short because of the Australian government's announcement" regarding cruise ships. She stated it as a fact, but based her comment on the sequence of events. Maybe she didn't know that Princess HQ had announced that cruises that would not be completed within 4 to 5 days, would return to port, on a date that was convenient for operational reasons and for the passengers. And so the Ruby Princess turned around and headed back to Sydney where they were due to complete their cruise anyway. They ended a couple of days early.

[Aus Traveller]

2 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

Totally agree, Ruby staff wasn’t as vocal, but we received daily written updates on the 24th Feb to 8th Mar cruise.

The only reason we heard the details about notices being sent to the ship is that we were sitting next to the Hotel Director for a couple of hours at lunch. After a couple (maybe more than a couple) of drinks, the subject of COVID-19 came up. BTW, I don't mean to imply that the Hotel Director had too much to drink - officers don't appear to drink alcohol at these lunches, only the passengers!

[Porky55]

Understand. 👍
Princess did the best they could given the information they were probably being bombarded with and if the Commission is anything to go by, confusing as well. It has been the craziest of times.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Porky55

[Cruisegroover]

Tomorrow the hearing will hear from 5 passengers via videolink. Counsel for Carnival wants about 30 minutes each passenger.

[BRANDEE]

1 minute ago, Cruisegroover said:

Tomorrow the hearing will hear from 5 passengers via videolink. Counsel for Carnival wants about 30 minutes each passenger.

Didn't mention the passenger who admits she got sick but didn't go to medical center because of the cost. Bummer!!

[By The Bay]

4 minutes ago, Cruisegroover said:

Tomorrow the hearing will hear from 5 passengers via videolink. Counsel for Carnival wants about 30 minutes each passenger.

It will be interesting to hear the passengers perspective. 

[Cruisegroover]

Just now, BRANDEE said:

Didn't mention the passenger who admits she got sick but didn't go to medical center because of the cost. Bummer!!

I only caught 2 names and I did note she was not one of them. I have kept the recordings of the TV shows where passengers were interviewed so will rewatch them to refresh my memory on what was said bearing in mind that often what people say can be taken out of context to make a better TV show.

[BRANDEE]

With all the talk of not following procedure..I am wondering why there has not been mentioned about..what the NSW Health was doing about other ships that were docking that same week.

I read that the Ovation of the Seas that docked on March 18, did report passengers with high fevers and respiratory trouble.  But not near the 1%.  Those passengers were not even told to self isolate like the Mar 19th passengers were.  The passengers from the Ovation were notified on March 21 that covid was on the ship.  Later that week, it was reported 98 cases and one death...never heard about that ship again. Number of infections were too low?

Even if the report about positive covid was reported by 9pm on the 19..most passengers were already home or in transit by then.  We were all told to quarantine when we got home anyway.

[BRANDEE]

2 minutes ago, Cruisegroover said:

I only caught 2 names and I did note she was not one of them. I have kept the recordings of the TV shows where passengers were interviewed so will rewatch them to refresh my memory on what was said bearing in mind that often what people say can be taken out of context to make a better TV show.

Not sure about spelling but I heard..Londero, Anderson, Williams, Lake and Waters.  If you plan to review recordings.

[Cruisegroover]

21 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

With all the talk of not following procedure..I am wondering why there has not been mentioned about..what the NSW Health was doing about other ships that were docking that same week.

I read that the Ovation of the Seas that docked on March 18, did report passengers with high fevers and respiratory trouble.  But not near the 1%.  Those passengers were not even told to self isolate like the Mar 19th passengers were.  The passengers from the Ovation were notified on March 21 that covid was on the ship.  Later that week, it was reported 98 cases and one death...never heard about that ship again. Number of infections were too low?

Even if the report about positive covid was reported by 9pm on the 19..most passengers were already home or in transit by then.  We were all told to quarantine when we got home anyway.

My best friend was on Ovation that returned on 18 March after leaving Sydney on 12 March. They were advised NSW Health didn't require them to self isolate as they had not got off the ship having just sailed around in circles waiting to come back to Sydney after NZ closed the ports before they got there. OPT was busy that week with unscheduled returns and Voyager come in the morning and Ovation in the afternoon.

 

A Canadian man then reported tested positive  My friend had a phone call from Royal HQ in Florida in the early hours of the 22nd to tell her to self isolate. She also had emails from NSW Health. 

 

No doubt there are internal government reports about the whole response to the cruiseships in March that could only be made available through the Freedom of Information Act if someone requested them and if the government agreed to them being released.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Cruisegroover