Ruby Princess - Special Inquiry - Evidence To Date

[christodan]

45 minutes ago, Vader1111 said:

Who died as a result of NSW Health letting the passengers off the ship?  Nobody - there have been no deaths from secondary cases (i.e. people who caught it from the disembarked passengers). 

 

I think I read that nobody knows because they didn't do any contact tracing on all the people who went back home OS. So we can't be 100% sure if there were or there were not any deaths OS from being let off the ship.

Edited July 18, 2020 by christodan

[Cyrix400]

11 hours ago, Vader1111 said:

Who died as a result of NSW Health letting the passengers off the ship?  Nobody - there have been no deaths from secondary cases (i.e. people who caught it from the disembarked passengers).  Don't get me wrong - it's only through good luck (and extremely poor management) that nobody died, but the fact remains that the NSW Health stuff-ups did not result in a single death.

 

On the contrary, the seriously mistaken non-decision may, however, have saved lives (by preventing further infections on board the ship).

 

Correction Vader 111  - it seems that 21  people died - if you accept Wikipedia references to the sources and two brief stories in two different newspapers - links, with short quotes,  below. Of course, unfortunately people do die from covid 19 - the point is what Health NSW did NOT do to  (but could have done) to minimise public health risk to to others , with disembarking pax from the ship.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Princess

"Another three passengers from the ship were reported dead in New South Wales on 5 April,^[25] and a fourth in Queensland.^[26] Another died in Western Australia on 6 April^[27] followed by one in Tasmania on 7 April,^[28] bringing total deaths to 13.^[29][27][28] The death toll reached 21 on 18 April 2020 with the death of a second man in the United States.^[30] About 900 passengers from other countries other than Australia and left Sydney after the ships arrival there; few specifics are known about infections or deaths in this group.^[31] The death toll was reported to have reached 22 on 13 May, with the death of an 81 year old passenger.^[32]:"

https://9now.nine.com.au/a-current-affair/coronavirus-ruby-princess-passenger-calls-for-answers-after-wifes-death/c7a16f00-a1f2-4208-9ee5-b41f37aa110e

"Jerry Lieben is grieving for his wife Janet after she died of COVID-19 contracted on the Ruby Princess cruise ship and he is demanding to know why the government ever let them board in the first place."

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/coronavirus/coronavirus-crisis-ruby-princess-cruise-ship-passenger-dies-taking-australian-death-toll-to-98-ng-b881546175z

"An 81-year-old woman who went on the coronavirus-plagued Ruby Princess cruise ship has died in NSW, taking the state’s toll to 47 and 98 nationwide".

 

[Aus Traveller]

I see where Vader111 is coming from with his comments. I have felt all along that NSW Health should have kept the passengers on the Ruby Princess until tests were completed on ill passengers to see if COVID was present on the ship. However, if the passengers were left to mingle in the public spaces for the rest of the day, the infection would probably have spread further. The only way to contain it would have been to confine everyone to their cabins. At that time in the pandemic, I doubt that would have happened.

[Docker123]

I may have asked this previously, but here goes.

 

Has there any reference to the Golden Princess's arrival in Melbourne the previous day?

 

There was an indication of at least one passenger with symptoms and others having had contact with a case. The ship arrived at 5am, and no-one was allowed to disembark until 3.45pm when test results were returned.

 

[OzKiwiJJ]

22 hours ago, NSWP said:

Amen to that, I have noted that these past few years, it was once a premier cruise line with some traditions, i.e. dress codes, conduct etc. Not so these days.  All about the $$$$.

I don't think it's all about the $$$$. It's more about cruising being more affordable to more people, including those who have no manners and regard a cruise ship in the same manner as they would a holiday park. The change is not driven by the cruise lines but rather by what the majority of passengers demand.

 

And it very much depends on the itinerary. A shortish South Pacific itinerary tends to have far more bogans than longer cruises and repositioning cruises. Although it's three years since we did our Med cruise, standards were higher there than on Australian cruises at that time, and some Australian cruises have gone further downhill since then. When I compare the 35 night Hawaii/Tahiti Sea Princess cruise with the 8 night Ruby Princess South Pacific cruise we did only two months later we could have been on two different cruise lines. There were far less bogans on Sea Princess but that cruise had an older demographic as you'd expect.

[christodan]

Yes Austraveller but they should have just gone straight into hotel quarantine to be safe. It would have been very easy for them to get straight on a bus and into a hotel. And then if all the tests were clear, then release them.  However, that's not foolproof as people could be negative if they were tested too soon I assume. And of course I am talking from hindsight. 

[OzKiwiJJ]

57 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

I see where Vader111 is coming from with his comments. I have felt all along that NSW Health should have kept the passengers on the Ruby Princess until tests were completed on ill passengers to see if COVID was present on the ship. However, if the passengers were left to mingle in the public spaces for the rest of the day, the infection would probably have spread further. The only way to contain it would have been to confine everyone to their cabins. At that time in the pandemic, I doubt that would have happened.

Yes, Vader111 was talking about deaths from secondary infections not of those who caught the virus on the ship - and we may never know that given lack of tracing of overseas passengers. But death is not the only serious consequence of Covid-19. Some people will have health issues for the rest of their life dur to the virus - damage to heart, kidneys, liver, brain. Indeed their lives may be shortened considerably by being infected by the virus but when they do die earlier than they probably would have their death won't attributed to the virus. 

 

The passengers should have been kept on the ship in their cabins until the tests were complete. There were no further cruises after that one so the cabins didn't need to be turned over ready for new passengers. As on Diamond food could be delivered to cabins if the delay was a long one, and would have needed to be in some cases for people, like diabetics, that need to eat regularly.

[OzKiwiJJ]

13 minutes ago, christodan said:

Yes Austraveller but they should have just gone straight into hotel quarantine to be safe. It would have been very easy for them to get straight on a bus and into a hotel. And then if all the tests were clear, then release them.  However, that's not foolproof as people could be negative if they were tested too soon I assume. And of course I am talking from hindsight. 

At that point in time they hadn't started using hotels for quarantines. Hotels were still operating reasonably normally for Australian tourists and international tourists who had arrived before they brought in the self-isolation rule, which only took effect a few days prior to Ruby's arrival. 

[Aus Traveller]

16 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Yes, Vader111 was talking about deaths from secondary infections not of those who caught the virus on the ship - and we may never know that given lack of tracing of overseas passengers. But death is not the only serious consequence of Covid-19. Some people will have health issues for the rest of their life dur to the virus - damage to heart, kidneys, liver, brain. Indeed their lives may be shortened considerably by being infected by the virus but when they do die earlier than they probably would have their death won't attributed to the virus. 

 

The passengers should have been kept on the ship in their cabins until the tests were complete. There were no further cruises after that one so the cabins didn't need to be turned over ready for new passengers. As on Diamond food could be delivered to cabins if the delay was a long one, and would have needed to be in some cases for people, like diabetics, that need to eat regularly.

Absolutely agree. The long-term health effects from COVID can be life changing and in some cases, life-ending.

 

At that stage in the pandemic, I doubt that passengers would have been isolated in their cabins, although that was what was needed. Yes - it should have been done, but I don't think that passengers on the previous cruise were kept in their cabins, even though disembarkation was delayed for health checks. 

[OzKiwiJJ]

51 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

At that stage in the pandemic, I doubt that passengers would have been isolated in their cabins, although that was what was needed. Yes - it should have been done, but I don't think that passengers on the previous cruise were kept in their cabins, even though disembarkation was delayed for health checks. 

Which was just plain stupid given it was several weeks after the Diamond Princess experience.

[Cyrix400]

1 hour ago, Docker123 said:

I may have asked this previously, but here goes.

 

Has there any reference to the Golden Princess's arrival in Melbourne the previous day?

 

There was an indication of at least one passenger with symptoms and others having had contact with a case. The ship arrived at 5am, and no-one was allowed to disembark until 3.45pm when test results were returned.

 

 

The Special Inquiry was focused only on Ruby Princess - specifically two cruises finishing 8 March and 19  March. Note that Health NSW boarded the ship on 8 March - twice as many people as they expected with respiratory type symptoms met Health in the restaurant. I think covid tests were done but they proved negative.

 

The ship doctor and others fully expected Health NSW to board on 19 March - they did not, assessing the ship 'low risk.' In the period  between 8 and 19 March there were quite a few changes to covid 19 epidemiological criteria, and related matters - some of these changes were NOT applied to the 19 March assessment by Health.

 

The 'serious mistake' of Health NSW of not waiting for the results of a few covid swabs taken on board - together with the 'Murphy's Law" (when things go wrong they go wrong at the worst possible time - and Murphy was an optimist) - meant that the tests did not make it for some reason for the morning run at the lab. The positive results were available much later that day - or  early the next.

[Docker123]

1 hour ago, Cyrix400 said:

 

The Special Inquiry was focused only on Ruby Princess - specifically two cruises finishing 8 March and 19  March. Note that Health NSW boarded the ship on 8 March - twice as many people as they expected with respiratory type symptoms met Health in the restaurant. I think covid tests were done but they proved negative.

 

The ship doctor and others fully expected Health NSW to board on 19 March - they did not, assessing the ship 'low risk.' In the period  between 8 and 19 March there were quite a few changes to covid 19 epidemiological criteria, and related matters - some of these changes were NOT applied to the 19 March assessment by Health.

 

The 'serious mistake' of Health NSW of not waiting for the results of a few covid swabs taken on board - together with the 'Murphy's Law" (when things go wrong they go wrong at the worst possible time - and Murphy was an optimist) - meant that the tests did not make it for some reason for the morning run at the lab. The positive results were available much later that day - or  early the next.

 

I know this is focussed on the Ruby Princess.

 

However, same cruise line, supposedly same instructions from head office, SOP, etc.

 

A point of comparison with Golden having suspect cases, tests taken, no disembarkation until results. Especially as it arrived the day before Ruby.

 

I would have thought the Commissioner may have been interested in how 2 jurisdictions managed the situations and what can be learnt from each approach. It would also allow for some understanding of how the messages from HQ were received and acted upon on each ship.

 

[Ondine]

When I was watching the telecast a few weeks ago I did hear the commissioner mention the Golden as a comparison so he is aware of it.  I haven't watched all of the proceedings.  

 

Friday when talking about hotel quarantine he mentioned Melbourne and Gail ???? also had a laugh about us.  Not very funny at the moment with everyone having to wear masks from Thursday.  Can't see why if I am walking down a deserted street for exercise and no one is near me.  Thank you dictator Dan.

[Ondine]

Hope all is still go for tomorrow Docker.  Not caught up in the latest cancellations I hope.  Daughter had hip replacement 2 weeks ago.  Operated on Monday pm and discharged Thursday am.  Not good.  Physio coming around and standing in the middle of front garden watching her do exercises at front door.  Crazy.

 

Good luck.

[Vader1111]

6 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

 

Correction Vader 111  - it seems that 21  people died - if you accept Wikipedia references to the sources and two brief stories in two different newspapers - links, with short quotes,  below. Of course, unfortunately people do die from covid 19 - the point is what Health NSW did NOT do to  (but could have done) to minimise public health risk to to others , with disembarking pax from the ship.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Princess

"Another three passengers from the ship were reported dead in New South Wales on 5 April,^[25] and a fourth in Queensland.^[26] Another died in Western Australia on 6 April^[27] followed by one in Tasmania on 7 April,^[28] bringing total deaths to 13.^[29][27][28] The death toll reached 21 on 18 April 2020 with the death of a second man in the United States.^[30] About 900 passengers from other countries other than Australia and left Sydney after the ships arrival there; few specifics are known about infections or deaths in this group.^[31] The death toll was reported to have reached 22 on 13 May, with the death of an 81 year old passenger.^[32]:"

https://9now.nine.com.au/a-current-affair/coronavirus-ruby-princess-passenger-calls-for-answers-after-wifes-death/c7a16f00-a1f2-4208-9ee5-b41f37aa110e

"Jerry Lieben is grieving for his wife Janet after she died of COVID-19 contracted on the Ruby Princess cruise ship and he is demanding to know why the government ever let them board in the first place."

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/coronavirus/coronavirus-crisis-ruby-princess-cruise-ship-passenger-dies-taking-australian-death-toll-to-98-ng-b881546175z

"An 81-year-old woman who went on the coronavirus-plagued Ruby Princess cruise ship has died in NSW, taking the state’s toll to 47 and 98 nationwide".

 

21 people died after contracting CV-19 on the Ruby Princess.  All of these people had caught the disease before they got off the ship.  Nothing NSW Health did or didn't do made one iota of difference to their fate.

 

Nobody that we know of, noting the lack of overseas contact tracing (as pointed out by christodan), died as a result of catching the disease from a disembarked passenger.

 

The NSW Health debacle had significant scope for generating secondary cases - people catching the disease from people who had disembarked.  Fortunately, and it really is due to nothing more than luck, there were very few secondary cases reported - and none of them were fatal.

[OzKiwiJJ]

37 minutes ago, Vader1111 said:

 

 

The NSW Health debacle had significant scope for generating secondary cases - people catching the disease from people who had disembarked.  Fortunately, and it really is due to nothing more than luck, there were very few secondary cases reported - and none of them were fatal.

Remember the self isolation rule had come into play by then and probably significantly reduced the number of secondary cases.

[Cyrix400]

37 minutes ago, Vader1111 said:

21 people died after contracting CV-19 on the Ruby Princess.  All of these people had caught the disease before they got off the ship.  Nothing NSW Health did or didn't do made one iota of difference to their fate.

 

Nobody that we know of, noting the lack of overseas contact tracing (as pointed out by christodan), died as a result of catching the disease from a disembarked passenger.

 

The NSW Health debacle had significant scope for generating secondary cases - people catching the disease from people who had disembarked.  Fortunately, and it really is due to nothing more than luck, there were very few secondary cases reported - and none of them were fatal.

 

Accept your point, Vader1111 - I  have misunderstood your original proposition.

[Aus Traveller]

3 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

 

The 'serious mistake' of Health NSW of not waiting for the results of a few covid swabs taken on board - together with the 'Murphy's Law" (when things go wrong they go wrong at the worst possible time - and Murphy was an optimist) - meant that the tests did not make it for some reason for the morning run at the lab. The positive results were available much later that day - or  early the next.

I think I read that the test results showing positive for COVID were emailed by the lab to NSW Health later on the day of disembarkation, but no-one read the email until the next day.

[possum52]

2 hours ago, Docker123 said:

 

I know this is focussed on the Ruby Princess.

 

However, same cruise line, supposedly same instructions from head office, SOP, etc.

 

A point of comparison with Golden having suspect cases, tests taken, no disembarkation until results. Especially as it arrived the day before Ruby.

 

I would have thought the Commissioner may have been interested in how 2 jurisdictions managed the situations and what can be learnt from each approach. It would also allow for some understanding of how the messages from HQ were received and acted upon on each ship.

 

I believe it was Victoria Helath Dept and Borderforce who made the decision to keep the Golden passengers onboard until results were known, probably in consultation with the Golden Captain and Medical Officer.

 

Leigh

Edited July 19, 2020 by possum52

[Docker123]

2 hours ago, Ondine said:

Hope all is still go for tomorrow Docker.  Not caught up in the latest cancellations I hope.  Daughter had hip replacement 2 weeks ago.  Operated on Monday pm and discharged Thursday am.  Not good.  Physio coming around and standing in the middle of front garden watching her do exercises at front door.  Crazy.

 

Good luck.

 

Thank you Ondine

 

Yes, still progressing as far as I know. Had my pre-admission interview on Friday. It is a private hospital, so they are still able to proceed as normal.

 

As to recovery, good question. Especially if we move to stage. Discussing whether to stay with family (if allowed), or go to a rehab facility for a few weeks.

 

My physio said he will not touch me for 12 weeks post surgery.

 

[possum52]

2 minutes ago, Docker123 said:

 

Thank you Ondine

 

Yes, still progressing as far as I know. Had my pre-admission interview on Friday. It is a private hospital, so they are still able to proceed as normal.

 

As to recovery, good question. Especially if we move to stage. Discussing whether to stay with family (if allowed), or go to a rehab facility for a few weeks.

 

My physio said he will not touch me for 12 weeks post surgery.

 

Hopefully by that time, things will be a lot better here so there won't be a problem in seeing your physio. Good luck for tomorrow.

 

Leigh

[boeckli]

Just saw the trailer for tonight's "A Current Affair" (Channel 9)

More Ruby bashing coming up - passengers banding together for justice it seems

[Aus Traveller]

2 hours ago, boeckli said:

Just saw the trailer for tonight's "A Current Affair" (Channel 9)

More Ruby bashing coming up - passengers banding together for justice it seems

It looked like 'A Current Affair' was re-using some old footage - the woman with the double transplant etc. I am sure she was saying the same words she did last time.

[OzKiwiJJ]

11 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

It looked like 'A Current Affair' was re-using some old footage - the woman with the double transplant etc. I am sure she was saying the same words she did last time.

😡😡😡

[christodan]

Just watched it online. The good news is Ms Temple and her mother say they will never cruise again. I am so grateful knowing I will never run into the likes of them on a ship.