The crew need better working and living conditions to stop disease

[medsed]

On 5/13/2020 at 9:43 PM, ontheweb said:

But Dr. Fauci has not labeled them as "floating petri dishes". He has saved that label for cruise ships. He has not tried to stop the navy from sailing its ships.

He wouldn’t have a job if he said that.......

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Aus Traveller said:

You are right. It was one passenger from Hong Kong who took the virus onto the Diamond and it is likely one unknown passenger took the virus onto the Ruby. Because there were close to 700 passengers infected by the end of the cruise on the Ruby and only literally a couple of crew members with symptoms a couple of days later, I believe it had to start with a passenger or a couple of passengers. 

I do not disagree, but I think once there was quarantine, it was spread by the crew. Crew members also caught it. And they were the ones who had to prepare and deliver food. And their close living quarters also spread it quicker among themselves.

[npcl]

4 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I do not disagree, but I think once there was quarantine, it was spread by the crew. Crew members also caught it. And they were the ones who had to prepare and deliver food. And their close living quarters also spread it quicker among themselves.

If you look up the reports from the Japanese Institute of Infectious disease they have charts of the breakdown about when symptoms appeared.  Based upon those charts, and their analysis, it seems that most passengers either got it before quarantine or from their cabin mates during quarantine.

 

The crew on the other had had cases develop later in the quarantine period.  In their case it appears that even though they were trained in PPD and procedures they were not implemented correctly.  For example wearing masks incorrectly, adjusting them often, not cleaning hand while wearing gloves.  As well as too many people in crew dining rooms at the same time. Once those procedures were corrected the new infection rate also dropped among the crew. Many of the crew that got infected were those working in food service for the passengers.  So even though the quarantine apparently worked for the passengers, the process did not work effectively for the crew that still had to work and were not isolated.

[chengkp75]

Where to begin with all this.

 

OP, most newer ships (built since about 2013) have two crew to a cabin, but older ships have 4 or sometimes 6 to a cabin.  However, reducing the number of persons to a cabin does not mean they get more room, because most of the two person cabins provide only marginally more space per person than the 4 person cabins.  Yes, most of these cabins have a sink in the cabin, and the shower and toilet are shared with the adjoining cabin.  The minimum cabin size for a 4 person cabin is 14.5 sq. mtrs, or 152 sq. ft (10x15, including bath).

 

As for sleeping.  By law, crew must have a minimum of 10 hours of rest every 24 hours, and this rest can only be broken into 2 segments, and one segment must be a minimum of 6 hours.  Now, what those crew decide to do during their rest hours is their decision.

 

As for not being paid, I would say that while that has been a purported statement from management to the crew, that will not be the case, as there are laws against this that protect the crew and the Miami cruise-chaser lawyers can do a real justice now by bringing the class action suit if needed.  Their pay may decrease to the statutory minimum, but they will get paid.

 

The CDC has no jurisdiction over the US military.

 

If there is a crew member who feels they can be punished for reporting to work ill, then that is a failure of training, and a failure of both shipboard and shoreside management, as every national sanitation program for cruise ships places a high penalty for ill crew working, or not reporting ill crew.

 

Finally, many fail to understand what "quarantine" means.  As far as the Japanese government is concerned, the Diamond Princess quarantine worked well, preventing the illness from spreading outside the quarantine limits (the ship).  Quarantine is designed to keep illness within a defined boundary, not necessarily to control that illness within the boundary.  So, setting the boundary as the Diamond Princess, the quarantine worked well.  If you wish to quarantine each person on the ship, you have to set different boundaries, i.e. each cabin.  Then, you have to set up different protocols for those attending to those in each quarantine, etc.  The biggest problem with the Diamond was that while crew are well trained in sanitation for food borne, or fecal/oral contact transmission vectors, they are not as familiar with aerosol transmission, so the use of face masks was a new experience, and their managers were learning as they went as well.  

[Loreni]

Thank you Chengkp75, that was very helping.

[capriccio]

I read this interesting and very thorough article (https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them) on recognizing the risks of contracting covid-19 and knowing how to avoid them.  Pertinent to our discussions on cruise critic is the following statement:

 

When you think of outbreak clusters, what are the big ones that come to mind? Most people would say cruise ships. But you would be wrong. Ship outbreaks, while concerning, don’t land in the top 50 outbreaks to date.

 

Ignoring the terrible outbreaks in nursing homes, we find that the biggest outbreaks are in prisons, religious ceremonies, and workplaces, such as meat packing facilities and call centers. Any environment that is enclosed, with poor air circulation and high density of people, spells trouble.

Edited May 16, 2020 by capriccio

[Thrak]

1 hour ago, capriccio said:

Ignoring the terrible outbreaks in nursing homes, we find that the biggest outbreaks are in prisons, religious ceremonies, and workplaces, such as meat packing facilities and call centers. Any environment that is enclosed, with poor air circulation and high density of people, spells trouble.

 

We just saw that here at home. A local church decided to defy the shelter-in-place rules and had a Mother's Day service. 180 people attended. The very next day one of them was diagnosed as positive. Since the tests aren't real fast they likely had to be tested prior to attending the service and likely had symptoms. Now the health department is trying to contact all of the 180 people who attended. They aren't saying anything about all of the other people who have since been in contact with those 180 people.

[hobbyfarmer2]

On 5/12/2020 at 5:03 PM, Loreni said:

Perhaps I was misinformed about 4 to cabin.  I hope I was also misinformed about crew having to sleep in two 4 hour shifts...that is so unhealthy.

 

I am concerned if crew felt in was necessary to work in food prep and delivery on the Diamond while they were sick with Covid.  I believe tHat is what the investigators found.  I think the leadership needs to clearly communicate that sick days are OK.

I know that some crew work split shifts hence the sleeping hours.  I think what the crew really needs is extensive training on combating virus spread.

Edited May 17, 2020 by hobbyfarmer2
Extra

[Roberto256]

14 hours ago, Thrak said:

 

We just saw that here at home. A local church decided to defy the shelter-in-place rules and had a Mother's Day service. 180 people attended. The very next day one of them was diagnosed as positive. Since the tests aren't real fast they likely had to be tested prior to attending the service and likely had symptoms. Now the health department is trying to contact all of the 180 people who attended. They aren't saying anything about all of the other people who have since been in contact with those 180 people.

 

To me, doing something like that is super disrespectful to the doctors and nurses who have been killing themselves trying

to keep up with the covid-19 cases over the past 2 months.

 

Anyone who voluntarily infects themselves like that should go to the absolute back of the line for medical care,

behind hang-nails, and ingrown hairs.

 

Every doctor and nurse should end their shift on schedule, without regard to the voluntary infectee.

 

I'm not completely cold hearted.   I support leaving hydro-chloraquine and bleach outside the door,

as a sort of medical trick-or-treat.

 

 

 

[bookmama22]

Working conditions for all crew are very poor for the most part. I had a relative who had a position on one ship working on lights for the shows for a one year position and unfortunately i do not know the ship. A significant portion of the crew on that ship was was in the Pacific Ocean having departed from Vancouver  became ill with norovirus which easily spread throughout crew housing areas but beyond that the working conditions for performing his job were inadequate and unhealthy, in cramped spaces where you could barely move, let alone perform your job adequately and safely. 

 

On the other hand in 2009 on the Panama Canal cruise that I was on that was a HAL ship and I have no memory of the name of the ship we had an oceanview room, not a balcony and there was a crew member, perhaps front desk or position similar to that who was in an interior room across from ours.

[Kate P.C]

On 5/12/2020 at 10:41 PM, Loreni said:

Yes, I think this is true in some cases.  I hope someone who knows will chime in.

That is true. A lot of the crew like Buffet stewards, utility cleaners, laundry crew, cabin stewards.... share a cabin of 4 and share a bathroom with another cabin of 4. Their cabins are on deck 2 and 3 which is below water surface. I agree with Loreni as the crew need better and more comfortable living conditions. Their cabins are like a matchbox. Can't imagine living there for 6 or 9 months and pray to get a good sleep.

[Roberto256]

On 5/16/2020 at 8:06 PM, Thrak said:

 

We just saw that here at home. A local church decided to defy the shelter-in-place rules and had a Mother's Day service. 180 people attended. The very next day one of them was diagnosed as positive. Since the tests aren't real fast they likely had to be tested prior to attending the service and likely had symptoms. Now the health department is trying to contact all of the 180 people who attended. They aren't saying anything about all of the other people who have since been in contact with those 180 people.

 

This from the cdc web site:

 

"Among 92 attendees at a rural Arkansas church during March 6–11, 35 (38%) developed laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, and three persons died. "

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6920e2.htm

 

"Go with God"  ...maybe a little sooner than you expected.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Roberto256

[Iryna K]

Dear guests, this rewiev is from the crew stayed on board after Princess stopped sailing because of global restrictions. Although there were no COVID l-19 cases registered on our ship, but all crew were provided with personal comfortable staterooms and all the facilities on board. The countries' borders were shut down and Princess became our home for next couple months. Ten days ago due to Princess' enormous efforts I got back home, a lot of crew are on their way back home, Princess' ships personally sail them back home, book charter flights etc. 

      My message is about appreciating of Company's kindnesses. I am so thankful for the comfort and kind attitude given to us on Emerald Princess and Regal Princess (believe the same situation was on the other Princess' ships). It is a great act of humanity in this challenging situation. 

      This message is from the bottom of my heart. I want to let people, including Princess' future guests , know that according to my experience, Princess cruises contributed not only money, but also soul into this operation of repatriation of crew. I wish Princess cruises and her passengers bright and joyful future! God bless you! We'll come back new and never forget your kindness🙏❤️

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Iryna K

[ontheweb]

5 hours ago, Roberto256 said:

 

This from the cdc web site:

 

"Among 92 attendees at a rural Arkansas church during March 6–11, 35 (38%) developed laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, and three persons died. "

 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6920e2.htm

 

"Go with God"  ...maybe a little sooner than you expected.

 

 

But the CDC has not labeled Churches or other places of worship as petri dishes.

[Roberto256]

6 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

But the CDC has not labeled Churches or other places of worship as petri dishes.

I'm sure that will be comforting to the families of the three people who died in the above incident.

 

[capriccio]

45 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

But the CDC has not labeled Churches or other places of worship as petri dishes.

 

True and outbreak clusters have been found in many other environments.  I found this article by Erin S. Bromage, Ph.D  very interesting:  https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

 

He notes that

 

When you think of outbreak clusters, what are the big ones that come to mind? Most people would say cruise ships. But you would be wrong. Ship outbreaks, while concerning, don’t land in the top 50 outbreaks to date.

 

Instead he notes that the biggest 'super-spreading- events have been:

 

• Meat packing
• Weddings, funerals, birthdays
• Business networking (in the early days of the virus in the US)

 

 

[jwattle]

On 5/16/2020 at 5:06 PM, Thrak said:

 

We just saw that here at home. A local church decided to defy the shelter-in-place rules and had a Mother's Day service. 180 people attended. The very next day one of them was diagnosed as positive. Since the tests aren't real fast they likely had to be tested prior to attending the service and likely had symptoms. Now the health department is trying to contact all of the 180 people who attended. They aren't saying anything about all of the other people who have since been in contact with those 180 people.

One of the biggest misconceptions about Coronavirus/COVID-10 is symptoms. There are so many people who are positive for the virus who are asymptomatic (have no symptoms at all). We opened a test facility in our are about a month ago, to get widespread testing and those with no symptoms or mild symptoms are encouraged to go. We have had a  surprisingly large number of positives turn up from that testing site, which in turn leads to finding more positives from their family/friends/contacts who have also been asymptomatic.

[Aus Traveller]

10 hours ago, Kate P.C said:

That is true. A lot of the crew like Buffet stewards, utility cleaners, laundry crew, cabin stewards.... share a cabin of 4 and share a bathroom with another cabin of 4. Their cabins are on deck 2 and 3 which is below water surface. I agree with Loreni as the crew need better and more comfortable living conditions. Their cabins are like a matchbox. Can't imagine living there for 6 or 9 months and pray to get a good sleep.

Sorry to say it, but you make your statement as a fact and it is totally incorrect. On ships I have been on, some crew are on deck 4 and the stewards and cleaners are on deck 3. Deck 3 is around the waterline, but does it matter when there are no portholes on that deck anyway. Please check facts before stating them because some people have the tendency to think that anything they see in writing is correct. Your statement is incorrect.🙂

 

Maybe you didn't read the post by 'cheng75' who is a ship's engineer. Nowhere did he say that a cabin of four shared a bathroom with another cabin of four. On the older ships (Sun class) some crew are in 2-person cabins with their own bathrooms and stewards on deck 3 share a bathroom with the adjoining 2-person cabin. No 4-person cabins even on ships that old.

 

Cheng75 said

OP, most newer ships (built since about 2013) have two crew to a cabin, but older ships have 4 or sometimes 6 to a cabin.  However, reducing the number of persons to a cabin does not mean they get more room, because most of the two person cabins provide only marginally more space per person than the 4 person cabins.  Yes, most of these cabins have a sink in the cabin, and the shower and toilet are shared with the adjoining cabin.  The minimum cabin size for a 4 person cabin is 14.5 sq. mtrs, or 152 sq. ft (10x15, including bath).

 

As for sleeping.  By law, crew must have a minimum of 10 hours of rest every 24 hours, and this rest can only be broken into 2 segments, and one segment must be a minimum of 6 hours.  Now, what those crew decide to do during their rest hours is their decision.

 

 

[Roberto256]

34 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

Sorry to say it, but you make your statement as a fact and it is totally incorrect. On ships I have been on, some crew are on deck 4 and the stewards and cleaners are on deck 3. Deck 3 is around the waterline, but does it matter when there are no portholes on that deck anyway. Please check facts before stating them because some people have the tendency to think that anything they see in writing is correct. Your statement is incorrect.🙂

 

A girl I know who works on ships refers to that as being undergrond.  "Now I start living underground for 6 months"

 

As far as I know, the lowest crew on princess lives in cabins as 'cheng75' described:

Two people in two cabins, with all four sharing a bathroom between the two cabins.

 

One stripe (or above) gets you a single cabin.

 

 

 

[Aus Traveller]

1 minute ago, Roberto256 said:

 

A girl I know who works on ships refers to that as being undergrond.  "Now I start living underground for 6 months"

 

As far as I know, the lowest crew on princess lives in cabins as 'cheng75' described:

Two people in two cabins, with all four sharing a bathroom between the two cabins.

 

One stripe (or above) gets you a single cabin.

An inside crew cabin could be referred to as "underground" then so could passenger inside cabins. They are on a higher deck and only a little bit larger.

Yes, stewards live in 2-person cabins sharing a bathroom with the next cabin (on the Sun class ships which are fairly old), but other crew (or staff) such as casino and shop workers, chefs, bridge crew (not the senior officers) and the Cruise Director's staff live in 2-person cabins with their own bathroom.

[Roberto256]

1 minute ago, Aus Traveller said:

An inside crew cabin could be referred to as "underground" then so could passenger inside cabins.

 

I think the biggest difference is that a passenger has deck privledges.

 

[wolfie11]

I'm pretty sure you have to be two stripes or the equivalent on Princess for a single cabin... Musicians, asst. cruise directors, etc share a cabin.

 

Chengkp, do the required rest periods include all crew, i.e., waiters, cabin stewards, shop clerks, or just crew that stand a watch?

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, wolfie11 said:

I'm pretty sure you have to be two stripes or the equivalent on Princess for a single cabin... Musicians, asst. cruise directors, etc share a cabin.

 

Chengkp, do the required rest periods include all crew, i.e., waiters, cabin stewards, shop clerks, or just crew that stand a watch?

All crew. From time sheets I have seen (on Princess), crew working hours are limited to a maximum of 14 hours in any one day, but also limited to 70 hours in a seven day period with the rest breaks that 'cheng75' mentioned.

[caribill]

16 hours ago, Iryna K said:

Dear guests, this rewiev is from the crew stayed on board after Princess stopped sailing because of global restrictions. Although there were no COVID l-19 cases registered on our ship, but all crew were provided with personal comfortable staterooms and all the facilities on board. The countries' borders were shut down and Princess became our home for next couple months. Ten days ago due to Princess' enormous efforts I got back home, a lot of crew are on their way back home, Princess' ships personally sail them back home, book charter flights etc. 

      My message is about appreciating of Company's kindnesses. I am so thankful for the comfort and kind attitude given to us on Emerald Princess and Regal Princess (believe the same situation was on the other Princess' ships). It is a great act of humanity in this challenging situation. 

      This message is from the bottom of my heart. I want to let people, including Princess' future guests , know that according to my experience, Princess cruises contributed not only money, but also soul into this operation of repatriation of crew. I wish Princess cruises and her passengers bright and joyful future! God bless you! We'll come back new and never forget your kindness🙏❤️

 

 

 

 

Thanks very much for your message.

 

I, and I assume all who read this, are happy that you are home now.

[Roberto256]

6 hours ago, wolfie11 said:

I'm pretty sure you have to be two stripes or the equivalent on Princess for a single cabin... Musicians, asst. cruise directors, etc share a cabin.

 

As far as I know, those people on princess have (and I know it sounds crazy) half-a-stripe.

 

cruise staff, dancers, etc. are two to a cabin, as you said.