ABC Four Corners Monday Night 8:30pm

[BRANDEE]

4 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

My DIL's sister was one of Queensland's early COVID cases, being diagnosed on 9th March after arriving home from Europe two days earlier. She spent a week or so in isolation in an infectious diseases ward in hospital, then in isolation at home while being constantly tested. She was sick, very lethargic etc. She tested positive for seven weeks, even though by then she wasn't sick, just very tired. After the first four weeks, she was told she was no longer infectious, but she continued to take precautions as if she was until she tested negative.

That is exactly what I was saying..a very tricky disease.  Even though my husband and I have antibodies now, were were told there is no guarantee  of immunity.."no get out of jail free card"  so we are still self isolating..wearing masks..keeping 6 ft distancing at grocery stores and when taking our walks around the neighborhood.  Still haven't hugged and kissed out grandchildren.  (Did pet the granddogs)

[BRANDEE]

1 minute ago, BRANDEE said:

That is exactly what I was saying..a very tricky disease.  Even though my husband and I have antibodies now, we were told there is no guarantee  of immunity.."no get out of jail free card"  so we are still self isolating..wearing masks..keeping 6 ft distancing at grocery stores and when taking our walks around the neighborhood.  Still haven't hugged and kissed out grandchildren.  (Did pet the granddogs)

 

[Aus Traveller]

2 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

That is exactly what I was saying..a very tricky disease.  Even though my husband and I have antibodies now, were were told there is no guarantee  of immunity.."no get out of jail free card"  so we are still self isolating..wearing masks..keeping 6 ft distancing at grocery stores and when taking our walks around the neighborhood.  Still haven't hugged and kissed out grandchildren.  (Did pet the granddogs)

Love your term 'granddogs'. 🙂

 

We were invited to our daughter's home for morning tea last Saturday, the first time we have seen her family in a long time.🙂 But, still no hugging allowed because they are still in isolation - no work and no school because of my son-in-law's compromised immune system. My little granddaughters did what they called "Grandma hugs" by wrapping their arms around themselves.

[lyndarra]

On 5/26/2020 at 7:52 AM, MicCanberra said:

Agreed, yes there were some other aspects I wish they had gone into further but as there are current investigations and commissions going on, perhaps they couldn't air these at this stage.

They (ABC et al)  have time restraints. There was, most likely, a lot of other stuff they could have shown.

As for the person in post #100. A smart reporter/producer could have pursued the line of lack of reporting v non reporting but that would need to be weighed against the cooperation of the person involved and keeping her onside.

[Vader1111]

For all the mis-communication and poor decision making which happened on 18/19 March, I strongly suspect that the end result may actually be the saving of lives.

 

To date there have been 850+ CV-19 cases which have been related to the Ruby Princess, of which 24 have resulted in death.  Nothing that happened on 18/19 March could have reduced the number of passengers who subsequently tested positive - they were already infected before they disembarked the ship.

 

We know that the passengers were allowed to disembark in an uncontrolled manner, and dispersed around Australia and the world.  This created a large, and completely unnecessary, risk to the general public.   However, all of the figures I've seen indicate that the number of secondary & tertiary infections resulting from this fiasco have been remarkably low.  It's impossible to give a precise figure, as several states have only classified them as "Ruby-related", not differentiating between passengers and contacts the passengers infected.  However, 30-50 seems like a reasonable estimate, based on numbers provided by the states which did make that differentiation.  I am unaware of any reported deaths from non-passengers.

 

Now, consider the alternative...  The ship is denied pilotage and is unable to dock and disembark the passengers.  As a result, passengers are forced to spend at least another 24 hours on the ship - and possibly longer.  30% of the passengers are already infected, and CV-19 is spreading like wildfire, and every day that the passengers remain onboard is adding more and more victims to the eventual death toll.  Even if the passengers had been forced to isolate in their staterooms, the Diamond Princess showed that the virus would have continued to spread.  I'm not an epidemiologist (or even a Doctor), but my guesstimate would be another 300 cases and 10 deaths if the ship's disembarkation had been delayed by 24 hours, more if the delay was longer.

 

Based on those numbers (some of which are pure supposition), it's highly likely that the fiasco on 18/19 March probably reduced the final number of positives by around 250, and saved the lives of 10 people.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Vader1111

[Vader1111]

3 hours ago, lyndarra said:

They (ABC et al)  have time restraints. There was, most likely, a lot of other stuff they could have shown.

As for the person in post #100. A smart reporter/producer could have pursued the line of lack of reporting v non reporting but that would need to be weighed against the cooperation of the person involved and keeping her onside.

A smart reporter/producer wouldn't have let NSW Police Commissioner Mick Fuller anywhere near a camera, given that he spent the better part of 2 months trying to deflect blame away from NSW Health and onto Princess.  A more biased commentator would be hard to find.

[ilikeanswers]

18 minutes ago, Vader1111 said:

A smart reporter/producer wouldn't have let NSW Police Commissioner Mick Fuller anywhere near a camera, given that he spent the better part of 2 months trying to deflect blame away from NSW Health and onto Princess.  A more biased commentator would be hard to find.

 

He got less airtime than transplant cruiser😂. I think I only remember two sentences from him and their content was unmemorable. He must have been a terrible interview if that is all they showed😜. 

[ilikeanswers]

25 minutes ago, Vader1111 said:

and CV-19 is spreading like wildfire, and every day that the passengers remain onboard is adding more and more victims to the eventual death toll.  Even if the passengers had been forced to isolate in their staterooms, the Diamond Princess showed that the virus would have continued to spread. 

 

The infection did not spread. Those people were already infected they were either not yet symptomatic or at a point where the infection was not yet detectable. 

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, Vader1111 said:

For all the mis-communication and poor decision making which happened on 18/19 March, I strongly suspect that the end result may actually be the saving of lives.

 

To date there have been 850+ CV-19 cases which have been related to the Ruby Princess, of which 24 have resulted in death.  Nothing that happened on 18/19 March could have reduced the number of passengers who subsequently tested positive - they were already infected before they disembarked the ship.

 

We know that the passengers were allowed to disembark in an uncontrolled manner, and dispersed around Australia and the world.  This created a large, and completely unnecessary, risk to the general public.   However, all of the figures I've seen indicate that the number of secondary & tertiary infections resulting from this fiasco have been remarkably low.  It's impossible to give a precise figure, as several states have only classified them as "Ruby-related", not differentiating between passengers and contacts the passengers infected.  However, 30-50 seems like a reasonable estimate, based on numbers provided by the states which did make that differentiation.  I am unaware of any reported deaths from non-passengers.

 

Now, consider the alternative...  The ship is denied pilotage and is unable to dock and disembark the passengers.  As a result, passengers are forced to spend at least another 24 hours on the ship - and possibly longer.  30% of the passengers are already infected, and CV-19 is spreading like wildfire, and every day that the passengers remain onboard is adding more and more victims to the eventual death toll.  Even if the passengers had been forced to isolate in their staterooms, the Diamond Princess showed that the virus would have continued to spread.  I'm not an epidemiologist (or even a Doctor), but my guesstimate would be another 300 cases and 10 deaths if the ship's disembarkation had been delayed by 24 hours, more if the delay was longer.

 

Based on those numbers (some of which are pure supposition), it's highly likely that the fiasco on 18/19 March probably reduced the final number of positives by around 250, and saved the lives of 10 people.

I agree with your comment that if the passengers had been held on board the Ruby Princess, it would not have made much difference to the total number of infections in Australia. Quite a while ago, the number of secondary infections in Australia was quoted as 19 people. We do not know how many overseas ones there were.

 

If the passengers were held on board until the COVID tests were done (expedited not left 36 hours), then they would have been mixing and waiting in the public areas, going to the buffet and the dining room etc. Their luggage would already have been collected for disembarkation, so they would not have stayed in their cabins unless ordered to do so. You are correct in saying that there would have been more transmissions within the 2,600 or so passengers.

 

If the passengers were isolated in their cabins, it is most likely there would not have been any further infections. The report by the Japanese Health authorities concludes that there was no transmission from passenger to passenger after they were confined to their cabins. There was limited transmission from passenger to Japanese medical personnel who checked them, and possibly from infected crew to a limited number of passengers.

[Ondine]

15 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

She certainly had descriptive language but I didn't feel she got any more air time the the other two passengers. Maybe because she was more animated that made her more memorable for everyone else. Personally the travel agent and for some reason the international maritime lawyer stuck in my mind more. 

 

Not too sure that the lawyer is an "international maritime lawyer".  I believe she is from Shine Lawyers and they are the ones who are appealing for passengers with regard to mounting a class action against Carnival in Australia.  Her opinions would be biased.

 

I also see that Princess in its April Health Advisory publication now states that if you have any signs of colds or flu like symptoms then you can get a "complimentary assessment" from the medical centre.  Don't think that this would make any difference to the transplant person because she would probably not want to be isolated in her cabin.  I would have thought that with such a compromised immune system she should have taken more care.  They didn't interview her mother who was with her so I think she just wanted her 5 minutes of fame.

[Aus Traveller]

I note that the transplant patient passenger and also the lawyer from Shine Lawyers are claiming that the Ruby Princess should never have sailed. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight we would probably all agree, but other ships sailed on that day or close to that day, and they had no problem. An example was the Sea Princess that sailed the same day - no COVID. There were also P&O cruises leaving within a couple of days of the Ruby cruise, but P&O have virtually no international passengers. That was the main difference. There would have been around 900 or more passengers on the Ruby from USA, UK and a few other countries.

[Aus Traveller]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

He got less airtime than transplant cruiser😂. I think I only remember two sentences from him and their content was unmemorable. He must have been a terrible interview if that is all they showed😜. 

He has got his pay rise for deflecting blame from the NSW government in the immediate aftermath of the Ruby fiasco, so maybe that is why he has been quiet in recent weeks.😁

[Ondine]

5 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

I note that the transplant patient passenger and also the lawyer from Shine Lawyers are claiming that the Ruby Princess should never have sailed. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight we would probably all agree, but other ships sailed on that day or close to that day, and they had no problem. An example was the Sea Princess that sailed the same day - no COVID. There were also P&O cruises leaving within a couple of days of the Ruby cruise, but P&O have virtually no international passengers. That was the main difference. There would have been around 900 or more passengers on the Ruby from USA, UK and a few other countries.

 

Princess were dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't.  Can you imagine the chaos if they cancelled the cruise on the day of sailing bearing in mind that there were hundreds of passengers who had flown in from other countries specifically to do the cruise and also many from far flung parts of  Australia.  Its not like cancelling a flight or train where you can get on the next one.  Things were moving so fast and the borders weren't closed at that time.  We had already stopped people who had transited China and Chinese passport holders from boarding so we felt a bit safer.  We left Melb on 2nd March.  Even the Diamond  in Japan seemed a long way away.  If it was so dangerous you may ask why the Federal Government didn't stop cruise ships from departing Australia!!!

 

Scenic had similar problems with their river cruise a couple of years ago when people complained that it should have been cancelled prior to them leaving Aus.  That ended up in court.

[OzKiwiJJ]

I just saw some of the interview with that woman on FB. She comes over as a very nasty piece of work. Selfish and stupid.

 

Even now it obviously hasn't occurred to her that she could have passed on the virus to others, yet she blames Princess for everything.

Edited May 27, 2020 by OzKiwiJJ

[christodan]

Yes I wish someone would contact her and tell her she is liable if she had symptoms and didn't go to the ship's doctor or self-isolate. That would shut her up. These people have no idea.

I bet she signed up for the class action. 

 

When I worked in a restaurant this woman threatened to sue us because she choked on a bit of alfalfa. Seriously? On what grounds would that be I wanted to ask. For putting edible food in a salad?

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by christodan

[Vader1111]

3 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

The infection did not spread. Those people were already infected they were either not yet symptomatic or at a point where the infection was not yet detectable. 

Some of the passengers were obviously infectious, given that the whole disaster presumably started with a small number of infected passengers boarding the ship on 8th March.  Those who caught the virus later in the cruise may not have been infectious at the time of disembarkation, but many others obviously were.

 

The point is that few non-passengers ended up being infected as a result of the uncontrolled disembarkation, while many more passengers would likely have been infected if disembarkation had been delayed, resulting in an accidental net reduction in cases and deaths from the disembarkation fiasco.  A silver lining, within a very dark cloud.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Vader1111

[Vader1111]

3 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

He got less airtime than transplant cruiser😂. I think I only remember two sentences from him and their content was unmemorable. He must have been a terrible interview if that is all they showed😜. 

He was on long enough to accuse Princess of lying when they lodged the medical documentation.

[Vader1111]

1 hour ago, Ondine said:

 

Princess were dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't.  Can you imagine the chaos if they cancelled the cruise on the day of sailing bearing in mind that there were hundreds of passengers who had flown in from other countries specifically to do the cruise and also many from far flung parts of  Australia.  Its not like cancelling a flight or train where you can get on the next one.  Things were moving so fast and the borders weren't closed at that time.  We had already stopped people who had transited China and Chinese passport holders from boarding so we felt a bit safer.  We left Melb on 2nd March.  Even the Diamond  in Japan seemed a long way away.  If it was so dangerous you may ask why the Federal Government didn't stop cruise ships from departing Australia!!!

 

Scenic had similar problems with their river cruise a couple of years ago when people complained that it should have been cancelled prior to them leaving Aus.  That ended up in court.

Royal Caribbean had to do just that.  Radiance was due to depart on Saturday 13th March.  She got as far as boarding and hosting the sailaway party, but never left Sydney Harbour.  The NZ Govt announced that they were closing their waters to all cruise ships (which weren't already there), leaving Royal no choice but to cancel the cruise immediately.

[mr walker]

1 hour ago, Ondine said:

Princess were dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't.  Can you imagine the chaos if they cancelled the cruise on the day of sailing bearing in mind that there were hundreds of passengers who had flown in from other countries specifically to do the cruise and also many from far flung parts of  Australia.  Its not like cancelling a flight or train where you can get on the next one. 

Radiance of the Seas was cancelled departing Sydney around that time, after muster drill as I understand it. Would have caused great inconvenience and annoyance for all involved.

 

Saw Vader's post after posting.

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by mr walker

[MicCanberra]

Hindsight is marvellous, I do remember thinking, why are these ships (and especially aeroplanes) not testing everyone as they embark and disembark. At that point in time we were quarantining people from off the Diamond and from out of China.

[Vader1111]

27 minutes ago, MicCanberra said:

Hindsight is marvellous, I do remember thinking, why are these ships (and especially aeroplanes) not testing everyone as they embark and disembark. At that point in time we were quarantining people from off the Diamond and from out of China.

I went through Changi Airport (Singapore) in early February, and they were scanning everyone with thermal cameras, as the people entered the terminals.  I returned to Sydney 2 weeks later, and there were still no checks at all.

 

The lack of any form of CV-19 screening at the airports was nothing short of scandalous.  The ABF and the Airport owners were massively culpable if Australia had a big outbreak.  The risk was massive, and they did absolutely nothing.  Absolutely nothing.

 

At least Royal were doing temperature checks before passengers were allowed into the terminal, and (by the 13th) they were banning anyone who had been in a high-risk country in the previous 14 days - including the Schengen countries.  Unfortunately, they were still allowing UK & US passengers onboard...

Edited May 27, 2020 by Vader1111

[ilikeanswers]

4 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

Not too sure that the lawyer is an "international maritime lawyer".  I believe she is from Shine Lawyers 

 

The lawyer I was talking about was not the Shine Lawyer. It was another woman who mostly at the beginning of the report. 

 

4 hours ago, Ondine said:

Princess were dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't.  Can you imagine the chaos if they cancelled the cruise on the day of sailing bearing in mind that there were hundreds of passengers who had flown in from other countries specifically to do the cruise and also many from far flung parts of  Australia.  

 

There were some cruise lines who did exactly that😂. I remember the complaints on the forum.