Who is booked for MSC Caribbean November/December 2020 Cruises?

[40yearcruiser]

3 hours ago, BoundForSea said:

I do believe there is something there with the CDC and the cruise lines.  There is some sort of back history there we aren't aware of.  Some say the reason is that the cruise industry is the only entity that CDC can control completely and that's why it appears this way, only because THEY CAN.  Regardless, it's not right.  I wish there was a way to cast my vote tomorrow for my opinion on how CDC has handled the Cruise Industry, man I would be first in line with my ballot.  

 

I'd be right there with you. How can CDC continue to blame the cruise lines for spreading COVID when they have been shut down for 8 months? The virus has continued to spread, and the new infections haven't come from cruises. And if we had all the facts, I suspect that only a very small percentage of infections can be traced back to being passed from the passengers on the  ships that had outbreaks in the early days with most original infections traced to travelers arriving by plane from all over the world. But airlines continue to fly around the country and to and from countries that will accept them (I DO NOT advocate shutting down the airlines too). I personally think with all the new regulations that cruise lines are proposing the ships will be safer than about anywhere else, except possibly staying locked up in your home (which most people will not continue to do). The nature of the disease is that it will turn up in any place where people interact so yes, there will be a few positive tests on the ships, but those same people likely contracted the virus going about normal life activities on land before they boarded. And the ships will be more prepared to isolate and stop the spread than has been happening on land. They just need to be given the chance to prove it.

Edited November 3, 2020 by 40yearcruiser

[KennyFla]

10 hours ago, BoundForSea said:

  I wish there was a way to cast my vote tomorrow for my opinion on how CDC has handled the Cruise Industry, man I would be first in line with my ballot.  

 

 

You can.  The CDC wanted to extend the no sail order until March.  They were over ruled.

Edited November 3, 2020 by KennyFla

[40yearcruiser]

10 hours ago, KennyFla said:

 

You can.  The CDC wanted to extend the no sail order until March.  They were over ruled.

Over ruled? Really? They didn't actually lift the no-sail, they simply changed their tactics by putting so many conditions on a restart to make it impossible for the cruise lines to begin cruising from the US anytime soon. If it were truly "lifted" the cruise lines would be ramping up for cruising before the end of the year using the protective procedures that they have already presented to the CDC.  Instead they have been forced to cancel everything this year and don't expect a magical restart after Jan. 1. The CDC is sure to come up with some other "conditions" to keep passengers off the ships indefinitely. I love your optimism and really hope you are right that the end to this persecution of the cruise lines is in sight.

[BoundForSea]

I truly dont think the Cruise Lines nor the WH expected what the CDC put out. I honestly think they both expected a full lift of the order. I beieve these ridiculius requirements were a surprise and somewhat of a malicious compliance type of passive aggressive answer to their order from the Coronavirus Task Force’s order to lift the no sail order Nov 1. Kind of a fine.... we will.... watch this....

 

This is all opinion of course, however I am concerned for the US Cruise Industry moving forward. Its clear the industry is in the crosshairs of the CDC now, and thats not a good thing, esp depending what the outcome of the election is. I’ll be straight with you guys, I’m concerned for cruising in the US depending on tonight. 

Edited November 4, 2020 by BoundForSea

[grandgeezer]

6 hours ago, 40yearcruiser said:

Over ruled? Really? They didn't actually lift the no-sail, they simply changed their tactics by putting so many conditions on a restart to make it impossible for the cruise lines to begin cruising from the US anytime soon. If it were truly "lifted" the cruise lines would be ramping up for cruising before the end of the year using the protective procedures that they have already presented to the CDC.  Instead they have been forced to cancel everything this year and don't expect a magical restart after Jan. 1. The CDC is sure to come up with some other "conditions" to keep passengers off the ships indefinitely. I love your optimism and really hope you are right that the end to this persecution of the cruise lines is in sight.

 

I don't see much cruising going on anywhere in the world. You blaming that on the CDC too?

[KennyFla]

6 hours ago, grandgeezer said:

 

I don't see much cruising going on anywhere in the world. You blaming that on the CDC too?

 

Perhaps you should look at Europe and Asia.

[ATC cruiser]

On 10/31/2020 at 8:55 AM, IsanTom said:

I agree!  Anytime you have government involved in issuing rules on businesses they have no clue on how to run, you will have raised more questions than answers, so the start of cruises here will be delayed further. Hopefully, after the election in 3 days the economy will be able to resume it's vigor that we enjoyed before the China Virus hit! I probably won't book a cruise until I see more movement to normalcy! Planning a trip to visit friends for Thanksgiving out of state by air. 

Do you think the virus is going to one day magically disappear? I wonder where I’ve heard that before.

[Formula280SS]

17 minutes ago, ATC cruiser said:

Do you think the virus is going to one day magically disappear? I wonder where I’ve heard that before.

 

I don't believe that's what the member said so please don't pour fuel on the ashes of those discussions.

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

16 hours ago, BoundForSea said:

I truly dont think the Cruise Lines nor the WH expected what the CDC put out. I honestly think they both expected a full lift of the order. I beieve these ridiculius requirements were a surprise and somewhat of a malicious compliance type of passive aggressive answer to their order from the Coronavirus Task Force’s order to lift the no sail order Nov 1. Kind of a fine.... we will.... watch this....

 

This is all opinion of course, however I am concerned for the US Cruise Industry moving forward. Its clear the industry is in the crosshairs of the CDC now, and thats not a good thing, esp depending what the outcome of the election is. I’ll be straight with you guys, I’m concerned for cruising in the US depending on tonight. 

 

You need to understand that the CDC gets a vast portion of its revenue from selling vaccines.  They will continue to throw up obstacles until they have some sort of vaccine they can foist off on the public.  Why they are allowed to target the cruise industry and not any other industry is beyond me.  Once upon a time, they were a respected institution.

[Formula280SS]

54 minutes ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

You need to understand that the CDC gets a vast portion of its revenue from selling vaccines.  They will continue to throw up obstacles until they have some sort of vaccine they can foist off on the public.  Why they are allowed to target the cruise industry and not any other industry is beyond me.  Once upon a time, they were a respected institution.

 

Well, some also ask that question.

 

https://cruiseradio.net/cdc-double-standard-airlines-why-only-single-out-the-cruise-industry/

 

CDC Double Standard: Why Only Single Out the Cruise Industry?

Published 5 hours ago November 4, 2020

By Doug Parker 

[grandgeezer]

5 hours ago, KennyFla said:

 

Perhaps you should look at Europe and Asia.

I know all about Europe and Asia, that's why I said "not much" not none.  Compared to what it was before the pandemic, not much is generous.

[40yearcruiser]

On 11/4/2020 at 1:26 PM, Formula280SS said:

 

Well, some also ask that question.

 

https://cruiseradio.net/cdc-double-standard-airlines-why-only-single-out-the-cruise-industry/

 

CDC Double Standard: Why Only Single Out the Cruise Industry?

Published 5 hours ago November 4, 2020

By Doug Parker 

This is precisely what I have been trying to say. I am not denying that the possibility of contracting COVID is a threat to anyone who interacts with others and I support social distancing and safety measures.  But the actions of the CDC in the guise of protecting the public have not been evenly applied to all businesses. Completely shutting down one travel industry while allowing others to continue operating with little oversight and interference is unfairly targeting it with no proof that it is any more dangerous to the safety of the traveling public. I'm afraid that with the current surge of new cases it may be a very long time before cruises from the US will resume. 

[cellfree]

On 11/5/2020 at 5:23 PM, 40yearcruiser said:

This is precisely what I have been trying to say. I am not denying that the possibility of contracting COVID is a threat to anyone who interacts with others and I support social distancing and safety measures.  But the actions of the CDC in the guise of protecting the public have not been evenly applied to all businesses. Completely shutting down one travel industry while allowing others to continue operating with little oversight and interference is unfairly targeting it with no proof that it is any more dangerous to the safety of the traveling public.

Well expressed, agree.

[Hlitner]

On 11/4/2020 at 12:28 PM, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

You need to understand that the CDC gets a vast portion of its revenue from selling vaccines.  They will continue to throw up obstacles until they have some sort of vaccine they can foist off on the public.  Why they are allowed to target the cruise industry and not any other industry is beyond me.  Once upon a time, they were a respected institution.

My goodness another conspiracy :).  I seldom defend the CDC but your post is very misleading.   Yes, the CDC does sell many vaccines.  What they do is enter into major contracts with the various pharm producers at a big discount from private sector prices.  They then make these vaccines available to health departments and other entities passing through the discounted prices.  In fact, this is a very transparent process and the price lists are actually online.   In the case of COVID it is likely that any approved vaccine will be available through the CDC at big discounts or even free (this ultimately depends on some political factors).    Nobody is forced to buy vaccines from the CDC and they are also available through pharm companies, major distributors like McKesson, etc.

 

None of this has a darn thing to do with the cruise lines or no-sail orders.  The reality is that the cruise lines did an awful job early in the epidemic and was not very cooperative with some authorities.  Some of the lines took a keep in open at any cost attitude which alienated some decision makers.  The CDC is acting within their their authority and folks can certainly disagree with how they are asserting their authority.  But they are in good company shutting down cruise lines since that seems to be what has happened all over the world.  Europe has tried some limited cruises and, so far, has had over 140 COVID cases on the few cruises that have operated.  Given that Europe was using some pretty strict protocols, this does not bode well for cruises over here.

 

As to why target the cruise industry?  There is a long history of cruise lines and the various public health authorities (not just in the US).  Unlike many industries the cruise lines are moving folks around the world and present a public health risk.  Perhaps a comparison could be drawn with the airlines who have also fallen under some government regulatory hurdles.  But the airlines are different because they are essential to the world.  It would be difficult to put the cruise lines into the "essential" category.  The cruise lines also utilize crew from all over the world, many of whom are subject to various travel restrictions imposed by multiple governments.  

 

And one should not ignore the other issues regarding cruises.  What ports are willing to accept cruise ships?  Where do cruise ships send their COVID patients?  Who will pay?  How will cruise ships get their passengers home if there are any COVID cases on a cruise and passengers are banned from commercial airlines?  Who will pay?  One could easily list many more problems, some of them quite unique to the cruise world.

 

Hank

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

7 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

My goodness another conspiracy :).  I seldom defend the CDC but your post is very misleading.   Yes, the CDC does sell many vaccines.  What they do is enter into major contracts with the various pharm producers at a big discount from private sector prices.  They then make these vaccines available to health departments and other entities passing through the discounted prices.  In fact, this is a very transparent process and the price lists are actually online.   In the case of COVID it is likely that any approved vaccine will be available through the CDC at big discounts or even free (this ultimately depends on some political factors).    Nobody is forced to buy vaccines from the CDC and they are also available through pharm companies, major distributors like McKesson, etc.

 

None of this has a darn thing to do with the cruise lines or no-sail orders.  The reality is that the cruise lines did an awful job early in the epidemic and was not very cooperative with some authorities.  Some of the lines took a keep in open at any cost attitude which alienated some decision makers.  The CDC is acting within their their authority and folks can certainly disagree with how they are asserting their authority.  But they are in good company shutting down cruise lines since that seems to be what has happened all over the world.  Europe has tried some limited cruises and, so far, has had over 140 COVID cases on the few cruises that have operated.  Given that Europe was using some pretty strict protocols, this does not bode well for cruises over here.

 

As to why target the cruise industry?  There is a long history of cruise lines and the various public health authorities (not just in the US).  Unlike many industries the cruise lines are moving folks around the world and present a public health risk.  Perhaps a comparison could be drawn with the airlines who have also fallen under some government regulatory hurdles.  But the airlines are different because they are essential to the world.  It would be difficult to put the cruise lines into the "essential" category.  The cruise lines also utilize crew from all over the world, many of whom are subject to various travel restrictions imposed by multiple governments.  

 

And one should not ignore the other issues regarding cruises.  What ports are willing to accept cruise ships?  Where do cruise ships send their COVID patients?  Who will pay?  How will cruise ships get their passengers home if there are any COVID cases on a cruise and passengers are banned from commercial airlines?  Who will pay?  One could easily list many more problems, some of them quite unique to the cruise world.

 

Hank

 

I hope the day will come when posts which are contrary to one's world view are no longer labeled as "conspiracy theories."

[ATC cruiser]

1 hour ago, Happy Cruiser 6143 said:

 

I hope the day will come when posts which are contrary to one's world view are no longer labeled as "conspiracy theories."

When someone throws up a lot of accusations that aren’t true, what would one call that?

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

On 11/7/2020 at 3:07 PM, ATC cruiser said:

When someone throws up a lot of accusations that aren’t true, what would one call that?

If the posts are verified as untrue, I would call them untrue.  But if they're untrue only according to your world view, that's something else entirely.

[KennyFla]

Hopefully the vaccine will be approved and we can get back to doing what we want 

Edited November 10, 2020 by KennyFla

[CruisingFox27]

On 11/10/2020 at 10:29 AM, KennyFla said:

Hopefully the vaccine will be approved and we can get back to doing what we want 

 

We all certainly hope so. Although rolling out the vaccine to millions world wide isn't going to be a quick process.

[Hlitner]

On 11/10/2020 at 5:29 AM, KennyFla said:

Hopefully the vaccine will be approved and we can get back to doing what we want 

My "hunch" is that we will have 2-4 approved vaccines before the end of the first quarter of 2021.  And then the real fun will start.  We know (I worked in the healthcare industry) that only about 50% of Americans, Canadians, Aussies and those in most of the so-called West generally get vaccines that are not mandatory.  But in the USA we have already had two influential governors (Newsom and Cuomo) that have publicly questioned any vaccine (before there is even a real vaccine to question) and planted thoughts about an unsafe or marginal efficacy product.  So when you have politicians preaching this kind of stuff to many folks who are already doubtful or into conspiracies it is going to be a very tough road to convince many folks to get vaccinated.  We know from history that these kind of beliefs will have a lasting impact (likely for years).  These two governors, because of their remarks, have likely doomed millions to being sick and 10s of thousands to death because they will not get a vaccine that could keep them healthy and perhaps save their life.  Ironically I would bet that both Newsom and Cuomo get themselves and their families vaccinated while still questioning those same vaccines.  A few weeks ago one California poster here on CC wondered if those in CA will even be allowed to access a vaccine..or would they need to go out of State.  

 

But the question for us here on CC is what happens to cruising?  My prediction is that, at least initially. all the cruise lines will require all souls onboard (crew and passengers) to show proof of vaccination or test results indicating the presence of antibodies.  That is going to create another controversy as there will be many cruisers who want to cruise but who are "anti vaxers."  Stay tuned fans.  But this cruise lover would happily board any ship that required vaccinations and I would avoid ships that do not have that reqiurement.

 

Hank

[Nashna]

9 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

My "hunch" is that we will have 2-4 approved vaccines before the end of the first quarter of 2021.  And then the real fun will start.  We know (I worked in the healthcare industry) that only about 50% of Americans, Canadians, Aussies and those in most of the so-called West generally get vaccines that are not mandatory.  But in the USA we have already had two influential governors (Newsom and Cuomo) that have publicly questioned any vaccine (before there is even a real vaccine to question) and planted thoughts about an unsafe or marginal efficacy product.  So when you have politicians preaching this kind of stuff to many folks who are already doubtful or into conspiracies it is going to be a very tough road to convince many folks to get vaccinated.  We know from history that these kind of beliefs will have a lasting impact (likely for years).  These two governors, because of their remarks, have likely doomed millions to being sick and 10s of thousands to death because they will not get a vaccine that could keep them healthy and perhaps save their life.  Ironically I would bet that both Newsom and Cuomo get themselves and their families vaccinated while still questioning those same vaccines.  A few weeks ago one California poster here on CC wondered if those in CA will even be allowed to access a vaccine..or would they need to go out of State.  

 

But the question for us here on CC is what happens to cruising?  My prediction is that, at least initially. all the cruise lines will require all souls onboard (crew and passengers) to show proof of vaccination or test results indicating the presence of antibodies.  That is going to create another controversy as there will be many cruisers who want to cruise but who are "anti vaxers."  Stay tuned fans.  But this cruise lover would happily board any ship that required vaccinations and I would avoid ships that do not have that reqiurement.

 

Hank

In an attempt to be fair, both governors said that they would consider the vaccine safe if Dr. Fauci approved of it.  Their concern was it would not be offered until all proper protocols were followed.  Covid-19 should never have been made into a political issue.  

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, Nashna said:

In an attempt to be fair, both governors said that they would consider the vaccine safe if Dr. Fauci approved of it.  Their concern was it would not be offered until all proper protocols were followed.  Covid-19 should never have been made into a political issue.  

Yep, but many folks don't listen to all the detail and just hear that their governor says not to trust a vaccine.  That is all it takes for many folks :(.  As to Dr. Fauci (I met him when I worked with HIV/Aids programs) he is just one physician/scientist (a darn good one) at the NIH.  All vaccines (including COVID) go through a rigorous approval process run by the FDA which is an entirely different agency..  There is an independent panel of experts (most do not work for the government) who review the studies and make a recommendation (almost always followed) to the Director (Dr. Hahn) who almost always will go along with the recommendation.  I am not aware of any circumstance when the FDA has ever been accused of approving anything because of politics.  In fact, the politicians (and many activists) have long been annoyed with the FDA's usual go slow procedures.  During the early days of the HIV/Aids epidemic there was a lot of pressure on the FDA to approve relatively untested drugs and they (FDA) always held their ground.

 

But yes, COVID is different.  There is going to be a lot of pressure on the FDA to grant an "Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)" for any early COVID vaccines that clears their Phase 3 Trials.  In the entire history of the FDA (over 110 years) there has only been one EUA for a vaccine and that was a very limited use (military only) EUA for an Anthrax vaccine.  An EUA, by its very nature, means that the FDA does not think there is enough data to give a regular approval.  With COVID this will likely happen because of the sense of urgency for high risk groups.  Giving a final approval for a vaccine that has only undergone testing for a few months is unheard of (it usually takes about 3-5 years of testing to get an approval) but these are unusual circumstances.    Speaking of Dr. Fauci, I went to an AIDS conference about 35 years ago when Dr. Fauci told us to expect an HIV/AIDS vaccine within 1-2 years.  Go figure.  Given that Governor's Cuomo's policies helped lead to over 33,000 deaths (the 2nd worst death ratio on the country) in New York State, I am not sure I would want to rely on his recommendation.  

 

By the way, for those who are into politics here is an interesting tidbit.  The top 8 States in terms of COVID deaths per million all have Democratic governors.  Given that a majority of the US Governors are Republican this is even more shocking.  I would add that the death rates in the two worst States (New Jersey and New York) are more then 2 1/2 times the rate of the median State.  Why?  Darned if I know.

 

Hank

P..S.  In the interests of full disclosure I used 

[Hlitner]

2 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Yep, but many folks don't listen to all the detail and just hear that their governor says not to trust a vaccine.  That is all it takes for many folks :(.  As to Dr. Fauci (I met him when I worked with HIV/Aids programs) he is just one physician/scientist (a darn good one) at the NIH.  All vaccines (including COVID) go through a rigorous approval process run by the FDA which is an entirely different agency..  There is an independent panel of experts (most do not work for the government) who review the studies and make a recommendation (almost always followed) to the Director (Dr. Hahn) who almost always will go along with the recommendation.  I am not aware of any circumstance when the FDA has ever been accused of approving anything because of politics.  In fact, the politicians (and many activists) have long been annoyed with the FDA's usual go slow procedures.  During the early days of the HIV/Aids epidemic there was a lot of pressure on the FDA to approve relatively untested drugs and they (FDA) always held their ground.

 

But yes, COVID is different.  There is going to be a lot of pressure on the FDA to grant an "Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)" for any early COVID vaccines that clears their Phase 3 Trials.  In the entire history of the FDA (over 110 years) there has only been one EUA for a vaccine and that was a very limited use (military only) EUA for an Anthrax vaccine.  An EUA, by its very nature, means that the FDA does not think there is enough data to give a regular approval.  With COVID this will likely happen because of the sense of urgency for high risk groups.  Giving a final approval for a vaccine that has only undergone testing for a few months is unheard of (it usually takes about 3-5 years of testing to get an approval) but these are unusual circumstances.    Speaking of Dr. Fauci, I went to an AIDS conference about 35 years ago when Dr. Fauci told us to expect an HIV/AIDS vaccine within 1-2 years.  Go figure.  Given that Governor's Cuomo's policies helped lead to over 33,000 deaths (the 2nd worst death ratio on the country) in New York State, I am not sure I would want to rely on his recommendation.  

 

By the way, for those who are into politics here is an interesting tidbit.  The top 8 States in terms of COVID deaths per million all have Democratic governors.  Given that a majority of the US Governors are Republican this is even more shocking.  I would add that the death rates in the two worst States (New Jersey and New York) are more then 2 1/2 times the rate of the median State. Another factoid,  There are 24 States with Democratic governors and 8 of those are the top 8 in terms of the worst death rates  Why?  Darned if I know.

 

Hank

P..S.  In the interests of full disclosure I used 

 

[Hlitner]

12 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Yep, but many folks don't listen to all the detail and just hear that their governor says not to trust a vaccine.  That is all it takes for many folks :(.  As to Dr. Fauci (I met him when I worked with HIV/Aids programs) he is just one physician/scientist (a darn good one) at the NIH.  All vaccines (including COVID) go through a rigorous approval process run by the FDA which is an entirely different agency..  There is an independent panel of experts (most do not work for the government) who review the studies and make a recommendation (almost always followed) to the Director (Dr. Hahn) who almost always will go along with the recommendation.  I am not aware of any circumstance when the FDA has ever been accused of approving anything because of politics.  In fact, the politicians (and many activists) have long been annoyed with the FDA's usual go slow procedures.  During the early days of the HIV/Aids epidemic there was a lot of pressure on the FDA to approve relatively untested drugs and they (FDA) always held their ground.

 

But yes, COVID is different.  There is going to be a lot of pressure on the FDA to grant an "Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)" for any early COVID vaccines that clears their Phase 3 Trials.  In the entire history of the FDA (over 110 years) there has only been one EUA for a vaccine and that was a very limited use (military only) EUA for an Anthrax vaccine.  An EUA, by its very nature, means that the FDA does not think there is enough data to give a regular approval.  With COVID this will likely happen because of the sense of urgency for high risk groups.  Giving a final approval for a vaccine that has only undergone testing for a few months is unheard of (it usually takes about 3-5 years of testing to get an approval) but these are unusual circumstances.    Speaking of Dr. Fauci, I went to an AIDS conference about 35 years ago when Dr. Fauci told us to expect an HIV/AIDS vaccine within 1-2 years.  Go figure.  Given that Governor's Cuomo's policies helped lead to over 33,000 deaths (the 2nd worst death ratio on the country) in New York State, I am not sure I would want to rely on his recommendation.  

 

By the way, for those who are into politics here is an interesting tidbit.  The top 8 States in terms of COVID deaths per million all have Democratic governors.  Given that a majority of the US Governors are Republican this is even more shocking.  I would add that the death rates in the two worst States (New Jersey and New York) are more then 2 1/2 times the rate of the median State.  Why?  Darned if I know.  

 

Hank

P..S.  In the interests of full disclosure I used the latest statistics (last week).