Looks like one more month of CDC lockdown on ships

[Formula280SS]

2 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Unless I'm missing something, this ruling has nothing to do with with CDC's no-sail order.  Apparently the US Government has a pending case against Carnival for Environmental concerns. This article is about the required "Environmental Safety Plan" (no relation to the CDC no-sail ruling). The environmental safety plan deals with things like pollution prevention, waste management, spare parts, etc. Nothing about Covid compliance.

 

The judge in this article went from requiring 60 days to 30 days (Cutting the time in half) between when the environmental safety plan is signed  and CCL ships can sail.  All good new for a speedy return in terms of environmental impact, but nothing at all to do with what the CDC's requirements to lift the no-sail order which is, at this time, the biggest obstacle to cruises resuming in the USA.

 

I just didn't want people getting their hopes up based on the headlines as the Environmental Impact Safety plan has little to do with addressing the CDC's no-sail concerns related to Covid.

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/23739-carnival-required-to-certify-environmental-status-of-ships-before-u-s-cruising.html

 

Hope this helps avoid confusion.

 

 

 

You're not missing anything as such was originally presented and appended by update (per a reading of each link such is clearly about the Environmental Order status).  There is no apparent confusion.  🎃

 

[BermudaBound2014]

I knew you weren't confused :), but the 72 point font title to the article states  "Judge ruling clears path for for Carnival December 1st sailing" which is being taken out of context to mean Carnival is clear to sail December 1st on several social media platforms!!  Perhaps the fine people of CC aren't confused,  but I was just trying to help.   Thank you for sharing the article, I do appreciate it :)

[Formula280SS]

45 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

I knew you weren't confused 🙂, but the 72 point font title to the article states  "Judge ruling clears path for for Carnival December 1st sailing" which is being taken out of context to mean Carnival is clear to sail December 1st on several social media platforms!!  Perhaps the fine people of CC aren't confused,  but I was just trying to help.   Thank you for sharing the article, I do appreciate it 🙂

 

NP.  The 'font is a "cut and paste issue" as the only alternative is 'plain text; so when C&P'ing, the font can be quite large. 👍 

[BermudaBound2014]

2 minutes ago, Formula280SS said:

 

NP.  The 'font is a "cut and paste issue" as the only alternative is 'plain text; so when C&P'ing, the font can be quite large. 👍 

 

I totally understand :) The C/p feature has lots of limits.

 

Are you a member of any CCL social media? OMG.... there are so many people reading just the headline and thinking cruises are good to go December 1st.!!!  I think several of the sub-forums here on CC have threads where people are misinterpreting the title.

 

Heaven help us all. Somewhere along the way we have failed to teach critical reading to many :).

[phillyguy31]

Let's face a couple of facts.

1. Florida is in a major up tic in covid cases, with the Miami area being a hot spot.

2. With everything going on how many of the countries will take a cruise ship, even if the tours are in a bubble?

3. Does anyone really expect Americans to behave in the same manner concerning the rules while on ship?

4. You can't relate other openings to cruise ships. There is little to no reporting on how many or if any got covid at a football game, theme park or other venues like that.

5. The news media will be all over it if one case appears on a ship.

 

All of these reasons and more the lines cannot be in to much of a hurry to get started. Think of the headlines that say the lines rushed to get back and now they are super spreaders. Not a good picture.

[BirdTravels]

7 hours ago, phillyguy31 said:

Let's face a couple of facts.

1. Florida is in a major up tic in covid cases, with the Miami area being a hot spot.

2. With everything going on how many of the countries will take a cruise ship, even if the tours are in a bubble?

3. Does anyone really expect Americans to behave in the same manner concerning the rules while on ship?

4. You can't relate other openings to cruise ships. There is little to no reporting on how many or if any got covid at a football game, theme park or other venues like that.

5. The news media will be all over it if one case appears on a ship.

 

All of these reasons and more the lines cannot be in to much of a hurry to get started. Think of the headlines that say the lines rushed to get back and now they are super spreaders. Not a good picture.

The cruise lines, like any business from your local diner and bar, need to operate to stay in business. And, as we have seen from cruise lines currently operating, there is a 100% chance that there will be COVID on a ship. Anything short of a positivity rate of 0% says that statistically, someone will bring the virus onboard.... now whether they become symptomatic and spread the virus is totally up to when they were infected, and their mask and hand sanitization compliance. 

 

With regard to #3, Americans seem to understand and behave "o.k." on airplanes because they are told flat out that if they fail to comply with mask requirements, they won't fly again. On a ship it is even easier, you will be stranded in a foreign country if you do not comply. There was another article today about someone getting denied boarding at a port of call for failure to comply with rules. 

 

Being from Philly, don't know if you have driven out to ACY, but they are open. Big resorts. Thousands of people. Mask compliance is "o.k." under the threat of being denied access. Social distancing, in general, is poor,,, but people seem to understand that they should (e.g., not piling into elevators). But ACY is open, making some money,,, trying to survive. 

[Trimone]

I think the elevators will be closed off, and stairs going up one end of the ship, and going down the other end, one way corridors, but instead of putting on the pounds eating, you will come back fitter.

The new NCL Leonardo range are to be called Fit Ships 1,2,3

Think about it?

[beerman2]

2 hours ago, Trimone said:

I think the elevators will be closed off, and stairs going up one end of the ship, and going down the other end, one way corridors, but instead of putting on the pounds eating, you will come back fitter.

The new NCL Leonardo range are to be called Fit Ships 1,2,3

Think about it?

The elevators will have to stay open for the disabled ( motor scooters). I'm just coming off knee replacement and not sure in another month or two I would be willing or able to take stairs without hindering others. 

 

I've seen the impatience of people before using the stairs pushing past others.

[Trimone]

1 hour ago, beerman2 said:

The elevators will have to stay open for the disabled ( motor scooters). I'm just coming off knee replacement and not sure in another month or two I would be willing or able to take stairs without hindering others. 

 

I've seen the impatience of people before using the stairs pushing past others.

Get well soon, knee surgery needs a happy balance between exercise and rest.

[bmwman]

On 10/21/2020 at 3:09 PM, BirdTravels said:

What’s the issue with a quarantine?  A lot of people work from home now and the fact that you are quarantined is totally transparent. Or are retired.
 

We were on holiday recently and spent the first 14 days in quarantine. Not a big deal. More relaxing where you don’t have to worry about being out and about. 

Sometimes you make bewildering statements that show that you are either out of touch or just have to comment for the sake of it. If you are retired you are in the vulnerable group so why would you go on a cruise and you will be surprised to find that a lot of people do not work from home. Most people can not quarantine for two weeks. I am not sure how doctors bus derivers train drivers store workers and the like "work form home".

 

In any case to demonstrate how wrong your comment s look at Wales - you can travel unless essential and for most people cruising is not essential

[bmwman]

On 10/21/2020 at 2:35 PM, DCGuy64 said:

Rubbish. The fact that ships are currently sailing proves your last sentence wrong. Cruising has resumed and will continue to expand. Honestly....

 

 

On 10/21/2020 at 10:50 PM, hamrag said:

 

 

bmwmans' first sentence is absolutely correct. His second sentence, which you have misconstrued intentionally or otherwise, is an opinion shared by many of us....that comment was clearly in relation to cruises commencing in the USofA, not Europe! 😉 

 

Given that November is less than two weeks away, there is ZERO chance of a resumption of cruising from the USofA before 2021...hopefully a happy new year to all avid cruisers.

 

Absolutely Hamrag it was USA I was referencing. In any event the start up in Europe has been an abject failure and has now stopped for all intents and purposes. Demand has been weak as evidenced by pricing and cruise agencies own admissions in recent press articles 

 

What appears to be happening is that people have seen through the cruise lines "promises" and simply are not booking any more. After 7 months of no cruises people are getting used to no cruise and the pent up demand may be waining.

 

The virus is now rampant in Europe and alongside quarantine we are seeing travel bans such as Wales. 

 

 

[bmwman]

20 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

The cruise lines, like any business from your local diner and bar, need to operate to stay in business. And, as we have seen from cruise lines currently operating, there is a 100% chance that there will be COVID on a ship. Anything short of a positivity rate of 0% says that statistically, someone will bring the virus onboard.... now whether they become symptomatic and spread the virus is totally up to when they were infected, and their mask and hand sanitization compliance. 

 

With regard to #3, Americans seem to understand and behave "o.k." on airplanes because they are told flat out that if they fail to comply with mask requirements, they won't fly again. On a ship it is even easier, you will be stranded in a foreign country if you do not comply. There was another article today about someone getting denied boarding at a port of call for failure to comply with rules. 

 

Being from Philly, don't know if you have driven out to ACY, but they are open. Big resorts. Thousands of people. Mask compliance is "o.k." under the threat of being denied access. Social distancing, in general, is poor,,, but people seem to understand that they should (e.g., not piling into elevators). But ACY is open, making some money,,, trying to survive. 

Perhaps you can explain with the mask regime in place why the virus is still spreading and accelerating.- perhaps because it s not proven but in any event who wants to go on holiday wearing a face nappy!

[All-ready2cruise]

48 minutes ago, bmwman said:

Perhaps you can explain with the mask regime in place why the virus is still spreading and accelerating.- perhaps because it s not proven but in any event who wants to go on holiday wearing a face nappy!

Agreed on both counts. 

[hamrag]

9 hours ago, bmwman said:

 

 

Absolutely Hamrag it was USA I was referencing.....

 

DCGuy64....thoughts? 😉

[deliver42]

I can't, for the life of me, see cruising opening up anytime soon. The U.S., has seen a big uptick in new cases, and Florida, the center of cruises, just had it's 2nd highest day, over 7,000 new cases, and the governors answer is to stop reporting daily numbers, so nobody will know how bad it is.

[JamieLogical]

If Cuomo hadn't exempted NJ, CT, MA, and PA from the NYS travel restriction list, 42 of the 50 states now meet the criteria to be on the list. They have 10% positivity and/or more than 10 new cases per 100,000 population per day on average over the past 7 days.  Only New York, Washington, Oregon, California, Hawaii, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine do NOT meet those criteria right now. With that being the case, I definitely don't see the Port of New York opening any time soon!

[Formula280SS]

1 hour ago, deliver42 said:

I can't, for the life of me, see cruising opening up anytime soon. The U.S., has seen a big uptick in new cases, and Florida, the center of cruises, just had it's 2nd highest day, over 7,000 new cases, and the governors answer is to stop reporting daily numbers, so nobody will know how bad it is.

 

Please, the daily rates are being reported.

 

Florida is a 'swing state, media loves C19 like manna from Heaven, and like lawyers, you can now find a medical professional to take either side of any issue.

 

Since the period March to June, when the entire world struggled to determine "what" this thing was, how does it infect, how does it kill, who is the most at risk and then determine therapeutics and risk control measures, like social distancing and masks, post July 1st is a totally different data capsule in the relationship of cases to deaths (i.e., citing cumulative deaths versus the monthly % of deaths to known cases is really misinformation by media state by state and globally).

 

Florida researchers are also skeptical of even the death report veracity (i.e., as much as 40% incorrect).

 

https://alachuachronicle.com/covid-19-fatality-rate-continues-to-drop-in-florida-3/

 

At the end of the day, the case count is almost irrelevant for the non-risk population (the risk population being nursing homes and similar, elderly with underlying conditions, and others with severe heart disease, obesity and diabetes).

 

The case count data is also flawed by absentia; cases in the at risk population above, asymptomatic cases, and those by age group.  The total count cannot be reasonably used for any purpose (well 🙄😷) without such.  IMO.

 

From the article ~

 

"For people under 65 years of age, the case fatality rate is settling under 0.3%."

 

That number is 0.0003 and gradates to almost zero descending down the age scale.

 

So, with the current late October 2020 understanding the virus, managing the death count is paramount.

 

Protective measures for nursing homes and long-term care facilities are important, but also note such a population has a historical monthly death count higher than the all other categories.  The same for sick and weakened elderly (the older the more measures), and those with the health risks of severe heart disease, obesity and diabetes.

 

The data of 'excess deaths, deaths from historic causes (influenza, heart disease, the cold, etc.) also has to be considered and factored into virus death data.

 

The concept of "social distancing" and "masks" for the rest of the population is, at this point, questionable (hasn't seemed to work here or abroad); but certainly in the case of schools and the population under 65 with none of the risk factors.  They are at risk to "be a case" but just not mathematically to "be a case that resulted in death."

 

So, to a reasonably prudent person, social distancing should apply to the non-risk population exposing the at-risk population; with mask and related risk protocols when such distancing is not possible.

 

1.  Adult children of the nursing home and similar ill and at risk elderly, and their children and families, should avoid contact with their at-risk families.  No government order, federal or state, is stronger than the families' self-risk management of the lives of their parents and grand parents.

 

2.  The same for the high risk categories, with more responsibilities on the under 65 at risk population to be as protective and proactive as they can.  No government order, federal or state, is stronger than one's  self-risk management of their own lives.

 

So, with the current late October 2020 understanding the virus, utilizing the therapeutics early count is important.

 

Simply stated, with the regimen deployed currently by medical professionals versus the "unknowns of March to June," a lot of lives are being saved that would have been lost if the infection was contracted in March to June.

 

Does this missive promote a full return to cruising 'the old way?  No, not at all.  Rather, applying the above considerations and risk protocols, including testing and on-ship bubbles at limited capacity, crawling before walking based on successes, similar to MSC Grandiosa (and now other ships and other lines).

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Formula280SS

[jaja]

1 hour ago, JamieLogical said:

If Cuomo hadn't exempted NJ, CT, MA, and PA from the NYS travel restriction list, 42 of the 50 states now meet the criteria to be on the list. They have 10% positivity and/or more than 10 new cases per 100,000 population per day on average over the past 7 days.  Only New York, Washington, Oregon, California, Hawaii, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine do NOT meet those criteria right now. With that being the case, I definitely don't see the Port of New York opening any time soon!

You are so right !   No way will Port of NY will open soon.   Also to be considered, the list of states on the travel ban change often, so planning any trip is very problematic. 

[bmwman]

14 hours ago, All-ready2cruise said:

Agreed on both counts. 

Thanks 

[david_sobe]

I totally believe that cruise lines will go the extra mile to make sure all of their ships exceed every social distancing guideline, etc.   I would never be afraid to cruise.  But the reality is that during a worldwide pandemic, it would be impossible to believe that passengers with Covid would not make it on board.  It also would be unrealistic that that person or persons did not pass it to a few other people.  If you research global pandemics, they seesaw back and forth and hit their peak one year into the pandemic.  That means January 2021 would be officially 1 year.

We have made it this far.  We WILL get through this. Lets not turn against each other.  We WILL all cruise again

Edited October 24, 2020 by david_sobe

[seaman11]

23 hours ago, bmwman said:

Perhaps you can explain with the mask regime in place why the virus is still spreading and accelerating.- perhaps because it s not proven but in any event who wants to go on holiday wearing a face nappy!

Because people in America dont like to follow it .  very simple, its not working because everyone needs to do it for it to work. even then its not a 100 percent kind of thing. 

[roger001]

2 hours ago, seaman11 said:

Because people in America dont like to follow it .  very simple, its not working because everyone needs to do it for it to work. even then its not a 100 percent kind of thing. 

Yep.  Just today, at our local Publix.  A sign at the entrance, and a second sign just inside saying, "Please wear a mask.  A mask in required in this store."   Required, not "if you wish".   At least a dozen shoppers wandering around smuggly maskless.  But, it is again "it's my cruise and and I'll wear anything I wish at the evening MDR regardless of stated dress requirements."  It's us...we won't change.  

[seaman11]

14 hours ago, roger001 said:

Yep.  Just today, at our local Publix.  A sign at the entrance, and a second sign just inside saying, "Please wear a mask.  A mask in required in this store."   Required, not "if you wish".   At least a dozen shoppers wandering around smuggly maskless.  But, it is again "it's my cruise and and I'll wear anything I wish at the evening MDR regardless of stated dress requirements."  It's us...we won't change.  

My neighbors were caught  throwing big parties a few times, so Bmw should not wonder , why it hasnt worked .

[CruiseMH]

On 10/24/2020 at 2:36 PM, Formula280SS said:

 

 

At the end of the day, the case count is almost irrelevant for the non-risk population (the risk population being nursing homes and similar, elderly with underlying conditions, and others with severe heart diseas

e, obesity and diabetes).

 

 

 

Just have a detailed look on the current figures and reports in Europe. The number of patients needing hospitalization and being young and having no severe diseases is going up relatively fast ! So this virus is not as harmless to young and healthy people as you may think.

 

On 10/24/2020 at 10:41 PM, david_sobe said:

 But the reality is that during a worldwide pandemic, it would be impossible to believe that passengers with Covid would not make it on board.  It also would be unrealistic that that person or persons did not pass it to a few other people

 

Just have a look to the current cruise line operations of AIDA cruises,TUI cruises,MSC cruises,Costa  and the few other cruise lines operating. They are operating since July/August and so far there is NO reported covid-19 case on one of these cruises.

Only exception were 7 cases of a full-charter cruise of a french company on a Costa ship.

But on all the regular cruises nothing happened yet.

This is the proof that it can work.(in case everybody follows the rules)

 

[bmwman]

On 10/25/2020 at 12:24 AM, seaman11 said:

Because people in America dont like to follow it .  very simple, its not working because everyone needs to do it for it to work. even then its not a 100 percent kind of thing. 

Exactly sir its not working anywhere in the free world. In thr UK compliance is not great and we now have protests  against them  and gathering and not wearing masks