COVID-19 Surging Across Europe

[Host Hattie]

3 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

How do they pay the rent, food, medical bills, etc.. This is an honest question.  Can someone who lives in a country shut down for months like this clue me in on how your economy, and in turn your population, survived this economically? 

We don't have medical bills as such, lots of us working from home, millions have been furloughed on a minimum of 80% of their wages. Some employers made up some or all of the difference. There have been loans and grants for the self-employed. 

[MTAK]

2 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 

That's the problem, isn't it.  The reality is that those states decided to come together since the federal government was doing nothing.  Nada.  Zippo.  Federal "guidance" was that COVID-19 was going to go away on its own, that it wasn't a great to Americans, and the federal government was not going to help in any way.  Sadly, states had to strike on their own for the sake of their citizens.  I recall NY governor Cuomo pleading for Washington's assistance - and it falling on deaf ears.  States even started tracking cars with out-of-state license plates to ensure they "passed through" or if stopping, isolated for the required time.  Florida, which has the highest COVID-19 death rate, offered to do the same to states with low rates.  It was very political and driven from the White House.  In the end it caused tremendous confusion, exacerbated the pandemic, resulted in ballooning the curve, and now is the impetus for the rising infection and death rates.  In a sense this is what drives the CDC "no sail" order: lack of federal policy and action.  The primary reason we can't cruise.  Today Dr Fauci recommended a national mask requirement to prevent further expansion of the pandemic and to curb phase II.  Countries which have gone that route, restricted travel and required PPE, are so much safer than those who have taken a laissez fair attitude.  The federal government has a mandate to keep us safe.  The Department of Homeland Security was created just to do that.  So far, it has failed miserably.

CDC (who is part of the Federal Govt. by the way) published a phased reopening plan for the states to follow back in March.  Despite claims that this did nothing, the 'curve' actually flattened and was on a downward trend between the beginning of April and mid June, as can be seen by the very graph you posted earlier.  Once states reached the benchmark criteria and began to reopen, the curve trended back upward.  States were supposed to revert back to previous phases to control the spike, but many have chosen not to do so, such as my own state.  How exactly do you propose the Federal government enforce the guidelines at this point? Take over state governments and start shutting down businesses? Withhold Federal funding from states that do not comply?

 

The CDC also issued mask wearing and social distancing guidelines for citizens. Many chose not to follow them, even after individual states like mine instituted mask mandates. The only enforcement here is by businesses who are willing to refuse service to non-mask wearing customers. Again, how do you propose the Federal government enforce a mask mandate and prevent non-compliant gatherings?  Send out DHS agents? Deploy the military?

 

Your contention is that the CDC no sail order is a result of lack of Federal action? How is this possible considering the CDC is part of a Federal Agency?

[Gracie115]

30 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

R-T-W you are quite passionate posting pandemic related numbers and it seems clear that you hold parts of the US government to blame.  That is your right and I know lots of others agree with you and some do not.  But this is all very much political agenda on both sides.  Numbers can be used to support any argument out of context.  So why here on Cruise Critic where we try to keep politics out?  All I was trying to say in my post is that the political Blame Game has no end and does not really contribute to the solution. We are where we are no matter how we got here.  We are not cruising.  Even if the US handled this pandemic absolutely perfectly we would still not be cruising now.  There would still be the second worldwide wave as predicted.  The primary reason we cannot cruise is because there is a deadly virus worldwide.  Most countries outside the US could care less about the CDC and US "failed" policies and responses.  They have not been cruising either. Can we try to keep the politics at a minimum?  I know it is impossible for any of us to be entirely apolitical.

 

 

YES PLEASE!!!!!!!!

[Ex-Airbalancer]

Here is an interesting link comparing States and Provinces 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-in-the-u-s-how-do-canada-s-provinces-rank-against-american-states-1.5051033

[Quo Vadis?]

53 minutes ago, cantstopingcruising said:

 

I believe Quebec and Alberta are higher than the national average but 7 American States are higher than that.  Some provinces and some states are much better at controlling the spread of covid. 

 

I was raving about our local situation with no new cases but now there is an explosion:

from zero to 35 cases in a population of 100,000.

 

[Ex-Airbalancer]

18 minutes ago, Argo. said:

I believe Quebec and Alberta are higher than the national average but 7 American States are higher than that.  Some provinces and some states are much better at controlling the spread of covid. 

 

I was raving about our local situation with no new cases but now there is an explosion:

from zero to 35 cases in a population of 100,000.

 

Our health unit has pop of188,935, I am Northumberland County , we not doing to bad

[LGW59]

34 minutes ago, Gracie115 said:

 

 

YES PLEASE!!!!!!!!

🍸🍸🍸🍸

[RickT]

1 hour ago, Airbalancer said:

Here is an interesting link comparing States and Provinces 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-in-the-u-s-how-do-canada-s-provinces-rank-against-american-states-1.5051033

Very thankful to be living in Nova Scotia.  Fewer than one new case per week yet people willingly wear face masks and practice social distancing.  Most businesses are open with reduced capacity and strict enforcement of face masks and other safety protocols.  We know that a few wrong moves can push the needle in the wrong direction.

[Ashland]

1 minute ago, RickT said:

Very thankful to be living in Nova Scotia.  Fewer than one new case per week yet people willingly wear face masks and practice social distancing.  Most businesses are open with reduced capacity and strict enforcement of face masks and other safety protocols.  We know that a few wrong moves can push the needle in the wrong direction.

Just hoping to have our scheduled port stop there in Oct 2021.....if you'll have us.

[cantstopingcruising]

1 hour ago, Airbalancer said:

Here is an interesting link comparing States and Provinces 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-in-the-u-s-how-do-canada-s-provinces-rank-against-american-states-1.5051033

Thank you. I wonder if there is a more recent chart?

 

[Ride-The-Waves]

2 hours ago, TeeRick said:

R-T-W you are quite passionate posting pandemic related numbers and it seems clear that you hold parts of the US government to blame.  That is your right and I know lots of others agree with you and some do not.  But this is all very much political agenda on both sides.  Numbers can be used to support any argument out of context.  So why here on Cruise Critic where we try to keep politics out?  All I was trying to say in my post is that the political Blame Game has no end and does not really contribute to the solution. We are where we are no matter how we got here.  We are not cruising.  Even if the US handled this pandemic absolutely perfectly we would still not be cruising now.  There would still be the second worldwide wave as predicted.  The primary reason we cannot cruise is because there is a deadly virus worldwide.  Most countries outside the US could care less about the CDC and US "failed" policies and responses.  They have not been cruising either. Can we try to keep the politics at a minimum?  I know it is impossible for any of us to be entirely apolitical.

Teerick:  My posts are apolitical.  I belong to no political party of political persuasion.  A life-long independent who is educated and trained, as a career intelligence professional, to look at data and provide conclusions.  I offer facts, not innuendo or fantasy. Facts based on 30 years in uniform serving the Constitution, and 12 years as a senior civilian, global travel to all 7 continents and more countries than I want to count, and living/residing in places from Communist eastern Europe to western Europe to the US.  Firmly believe in Mark Twain: "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." According to Twain, travel is the antidote for prejudice.

 

My career was one of factual analysis.  An extremely important consideration when discussing issues like pandemics.  I also was a professor of national security strategy at the US National War College and have a good understanding of the USG, its responsibilities and functions.  My comments are fact based, not fantasy.  

 

I am disappointed in not being able to cruise, as is my wife of 50 years.  We really enjoy getting out and seeing new places, meeting new people and even revisiting old haunts (like Switzerland).  Can't do that at the moment and based on our ages the pandemic may outlast us, or at least preclude us from traveling as we like to do it.  

 

As a country with world class science and medical capabilities, we failed keeping our fellow citizens safe.  Didn't need to be that way.  Numbers don't lie (although as you point out liars can manipulate numbers).  COVID-19 should not have propagated as it did across the US.  Right at this moment COVID-19 is again spreading across Europe and the US.  France, Germany, the UK and others are taking serious measures to limit its spread.  The US, once again, is not.  Some are saying that the current federal administration has "given up."  The political side - maybe.  I know there are lots of great Americans working in the federal government who are doing their best to mitigate the spread, establish policies and procedures which permit life to go on as best and normal as possible.  We need to support them, not denigrate their efforts.

 

If we want to get back to "riding the waves" we need to do all the things the CDC recommends, using PPE, social distancing, stop congregating, etc., and even as Dr Fauci advocates, have a national mask mandate!  We are all in this together.  And together implies individual effort and compliance for the whole to be successful.  

Edited October 29, 2020 by Ride-The-Waves

[Fouremco]

19 minutes ago, cantstopingcruising said:

Thank you. I wonder if there is a more recent chart?

 

The charts are based on information from yesterday, and from today in some cases. You're unlikely to get anything more recent.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Fouremco

[cscurlock]

On 10/27/2020 at 12:15 PM, Crazy planning mom said:

In NY, the Governor is shutting down now only in micro-clusters( neighborhoods or portions of neighborhoods)

where the infection rate is too high and then reopening as soon as the numbers come down.  I think that is the right tactic.

They had it very rough in the beginning.  NY will not let that happen again.  They didn't have all the tools available that we do now to help people recover hence the bad mortality rate early on and also no tracing systems.  Governments have to be really on top of their people and understand where things are going wrong and quickly get it under control.  As long as we can get a majority of people to take the 3 simple steps that the CDC is telling us to do there won't be a need for a shutdown.  I think NY even subpoenas you if you get infected and don't want to help them with contact tracing.  

Edited October 29, 2020 by cscurlock

[Ride-The-Waves]

1 hour ago, Airbalancer said:

Here is an interesting link comparing States and Provinces 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-in-the-u-s-how-do-canada-s-provinces-rank-against-american-states-1.5051033

 

Excellent chart.  Thanks for sharing.  Find it very interesting that the US state of North Dakota has approximately ten times the rate of its Canadian neighbors.  Good job Manitoba and Saskatchewon.

[dani negreanu]

4 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

When I was attached to the US embassy in Bucharest as diplomat in1989/1990

 

Off-topic, but I couldn't resist... Is not everyday you see someone was living in the city I was born. I lived in Floreasca neighborhood until my parents and I were finally granted the permission to emigrate to Israel (1966). I was 15.

 

As an adolescent, I have very fond memories of Bucharest, the "small Paris".

 

I sincerely hope you've enjoyed your service there.🌸

[Ex-Airbalancer]

1 hour ago, cantstopingcruising said:

Thank you. I wonder if there is a more recent chart?

 

It was up dated this morning

[phoenix_dream]

3 hours ago, Host Hattie said:

We don't have medical bills as such, lots of us working from home, millions have been furloughed on a minimum of 80% of their wages. Some employers made up some or all of the difference. There have been loans and grants for the self-employed. 

Wow - very different from this country!  We do have a lot of people working from home.  Some of the ones hardest hit are the service industry workers.  In my area, for example, the positivity rate had risen so they are going back to prohibit dining inside restaurants - you can only do take-out, delivery, or eat outside (but the cold weather is really hurting that).  Many of these small business employers can't afford to subsidize their furloughed staff, if they are even lucky enough to stay in business at all.  There has been some loans and grants available, although right now our politicians are fighting each other about doing it again even though it is badly needed.  We have some level of unemployment insurance, but it is nowhere near 80% and there have been administrative nightmares for some people trying to secure it.   This would certainly be a good time for countries to learn from each other about what works and what doesn't work.  

[cantstopingcruising]

36 minutes ago, Airbalancer said:

It was up dated this morning

 

 

thanks

[Gracie115]

12 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

 If we want to get back to "riding the waves" we need to do all the things the CDC recommends, using PPE, social distancing, stop congregating, etc., and even as Dr Fauci advocates, have a national mask mandate!  We are all in this together.  And together implies individual effort and compliance for the whole to be successful.  

 

Thanks for the background, sure sounds like you have had an interesting life.

 

Couldn't agree more with that last paragraph.

[BigAl94]

Spain has extended the State of Alarm until next May https://www.spainenglish.com/2020/10/29/spain-state-of-alarm-until-may-2021/

[Oulton Jim]

This is the most emotive issue as one could only imagine. It intrigues me to keep reading such phrases as ''what are the government doing/going to do about it?' -the correct question to pose should be this 'what are YOU doing about it?'

 Governments do not spread this disease - that is done by individuals. I really am amazed that the world over one sees a similar mantra...... take obesity -it IS there -it is literally and metaphorically spreading. 'Governments' do not 'force-feed' individuals with trash food -we are mainly responsible for our own destiny and that of our children. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Oulton Jim

[Miaminice]

58 minutes ago, Oulton Jim said:

-the correct question to pose should be this 'what are YOU doing about it?'

 Governments do not spread this disease - that is done by individuals. 

You are totally correct! Only blaming others is the wrong way - easy but wrong.

 

The only point I would see differently: Governments are not spreading the virus! However, it is a government‘s responsibility to provide a legal ground to protect those who are responsible from those who are not. And it’s also the responsible of a government to lead by example. Unfortunately that’s not the case everywhere...

[TeeRick]

14 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Teerick:  My posts are apolitical.  I belong to no political party of political persuasion.  A life-long independent who is educated and trained, as a career intelligence professional, to look at data and provide conclusions.  I offer facts, not innuendo or fantasy. Facts based on 30 years in uniform serving the Constitution, and 12 years as a senior civilian, global travel to all 7 continents and more countries than I want to count, and living/residing in places from Communist eastern Europe to western Europe to the US.  Firmly believe in Mark Twain: "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." According to Twain, travel is the antidote for prejudice.

 

My career was one of factual analysis.  An extremely important consideration when discussing issues like pandemics.  I also was a professor of national security strategy at the US National War College and have a good understanding of the USG, its responsibilities and functions.  My comments are fact based, not fantasy.  

 

I am disappointed in not being able to cruise, as is my wife of 50 years.  We really enjoy getting out and seeing new places, meeting new people and even revisiting old haunts (like Switzerland).  Can't do that at the moment and based on our ages the pandemic may outlast us, or at least preclude us from traveling as we like to do it.  

 

As a country with world class science and medical capabilities, we failed keeping our fellow citizens safe.  Didn't need to be that way.  Numbers don't lie (although as you point out liars can manipulate numbers).  COVID-19 should not have propagated as it did across the US.  Right at this moment COVID-19 is again spreading across Europe and the US.  France, Germany, the UK and others are taking serious measures to limit its spread.  The US, once again, is not.  Some are saying that the current federal administration has "given up."  The political side - maybe.  I know there are lots of great Americans working in the federal government who are doing their best to mitigate the spread, establish policies and procedures which permit life to go on as best and normal as possible.  We need to support them, not denigrate their efforts.

 

If we want to get back to "riding the waves" we need to do all the things the CDC recommends, using PPE, social distancing, stop congregating, etc., and even as Dr Fauci advocates, have a national mask mandate!  We are all in this together.  And together implies individual effort and compliance for the whole to be successful.  

I agree with this in red for sure!

Thanks for sharing your info of your accomplished career.  I personally will commit to a focus on productive apolitical discussions talking about solutions (and science for those that know about my career).

[TeeRick]

17 hours ago, Airbalancer said:

Here is an interesting link comparing States and Provinces 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-in-the-u-s-how-do-canada-s-provinces-rank-against-american-states-1.5051033

Thank you for the chart.  Tracking and comparing the trends in the positive cases (both total and cumulative)  is useful information as it gives a snapshot of the virus in the population.  But it is potentially misleading as well since many of these types of charts do not normalize the data for the number of tests taken and analyzed.  States with high positives might also be testing more than neighboring states.  So the media and reports go on about surges based on total positives.  Or positives per X population in the state.  Same is true in comparing countries.

 

But a much more useful way to look at the data it is to look at the ratio of positive cases to total number of tests administered on a given day or week or month. This is the Percent Positive metric.  See JUH link below.   If state A reports 100 positives but has tested 10,000 people the ratio is 1% (very good).  If state B reports "only" 50 positives but tests 1000 people the ratio is 5% which is worse than state A.  But most of these charts would say the outbreak is "worse" in State A vs State B because they are just looking at positive tests as their only parameter.

 

https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/covid-19-testing-understanding-the-percent-positive.html

Edited October 30, 2020 by TeeRick

[phoenix_dream]

2 hours ago, Oulton Jim said:

This is the most emotive issue as one could only imagine. It intrigues me to keep reading such phrases as ''what are the government doing/going to do about it?' -the correct question to pose should be this 'what are YOU doing about it?'

 Governments do not spread this disease - that is done by individuals. I really am amazed that the world over one sees a similar mantra...... take obesity -it IS there -it is literally and metaphorically spreading. 'Governments' do not 'force-feed' individuals with trash food -we are mainly responsible for our own destiny and that of our children. 

I agree with you to a point.  I am a firm believer that the government is not my daddy.  I have a responsibility to do my part to keep myself safe and to make my own way in the world if I have the ability to do so.  That said, the government IMHO has as one of its primary responsibilities to keep us safe.  That is why we have laws, that is why we have military, that is why here in the US we have the FBI and the CIA and on and on.  In the case of the virus, the government then has the responsibility to provide leadership over what is needed to keep the country safe.  Not all of this can be done by the individual.  I cannot mandate that others wear masks; the government can.  I cannot ramp up production of PPE and medical equipment like ventilators; the government can.  I cannot close borders or enact other restrictions like shutting down super spreader facilities; the government can.  I could not shut down cruise lines sailing out of the US due to the serious virus issues onboard; the government could.  

 

We absolutely have a responsibility to do all we can to keep ourselves safe.  I think we also have a responsibility to do all we can to not endanger others.  But the government definitely has responsibilities as well.  Depending on the government, some have done a good job at this and others far from it.