Key West Votes to Ban Mega Ships

[Hawaiidan]

21 hours ago, Classiccruiser777 said:

Many in Seattle don’t want cruise ships even though the cruise industry contributes approximately $500,000,000 per year to the local economy. Seattle seems to be engaged in a massive economic suicide movement. Very sad.

Happy to help in it's demise.....  They have turned their great city  into an unsafe nightmare  like Portland has..... As they say, as you cast your bread on the water so shall you reap....   Bad behavior deserves what it gets

[Hawaiidan]

1 hour ago, pinotlover said:

I believe he lived in Hawaii for quite awhile.

like 11 years... saw  the real Hawaii and that is why I  left.... Most  corrupt and racist society I have ever been...  As a NPS ranger naturalist   Hawaiians used to spit on  or at us and curse....   Aloha is a BS term in todays society...Maybe in decades past.... but not today.   Sorry

   They are very fair people ...they deep down hate everyone equally. I caught on slow but good.

[clo]

4 hours ago, Daniel A said:

’m not convinced that the residents of one municipality have to right to block US citizens from entering the municipality.

Interesting. But what about when NY, NJ and ??? blocked people from coming in?

[clo]

1 hour ago, Hawaiidan said:

Happy to help in it's demise.....  They have turned their great city  into an unsafe nightmare  like Portland has..... As they say, as you cast your bread on the water so shall you reap....   Bad behavior deserves what it gets

Perhaps you just don't like big, sophisticated, multi-cultured places. Seattle is one of our favorite cities and we never feel unsafe. We're there about a half dozen time a year.

[Daniel A]

1 hour ago, clo said:

Interesting. But what about when NY, NJ and ??? blocked people from coming in?

I don't think either state blocked anybody.  You may be confusing blocking entry with a requirement to quarantine.

 

I think you've also confused a state with a municipality.

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Daniel A

[clo]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

I think you've also confused a state with a municipality.

 

But does it matter? I've certainly seen counties and cities put in restrictions. Actually our governor is allowing our regional governments to be even more, but not less, restrictive.

[Silver Sweethearts]

4 hours ago, Hawaiidan said:

like 11 years... saw  the real Hawaii and that is why I  left.... Most  corrupt and racist society I have ever been...  As a NPS ranger naturalist   Hawaiians used to spit on  or at us and curse....   Aloha is a BS term in todays society...Maybe in decades past.... but not today.   Sorry

   They are very fair people ...they deep down hate everyone equally. I caught on slow but good.

 

The amount of vitriol you have shown all along about Hawaii and its people leads us to believe you obviously had some bad dealings with them in the past.  That is no excuse, however, for painting everyone with a misleading and inaccurate broad brush.

[Hawaiidan]

1 hour ago, Silver Sweethearts said:

 

The amount of vitriol you have shown all along about Hawaii and its people leads us to believe you obviously had some bad dealings with them in the past.  That is no excuse, however, for painting everyone with a misleading and inaccurate broad brush.

gee  I got the same take from the Hawaii county DA and several state Senators, friends, who over the years informed me of the reality of Hawaii   and the new generation in Hawaii..

.. 

 I give everyone an even break , I draw my conclusions from over a decade of meeting thousands of people locals over thousands of days...on all islands. .  No excuse for voicing reality of shame  It is just counter to the travel brochures.

 

   I might say to say all is well and good is likewise wearing rose colored glasses to reality.    The tourist Hawaii  is nothing like the reality of its residents... and how they really feel about anyone non-Hawaiian.

  On the other hand living in the micro world of Maui is a world detached from actual Hawaii  its more So Cal with pineapples and tough to see from the glint of the golden Maui coast and its enclaves....     

[Hawaiidan]

5 hours ago, clo said:

Perhaps you just don't like big, sophisticated, multi-cultured places. Seattle is one of our favorite cities and we never feel unsafe. We're there about a half dozen time a year.

No  I do not like high crime, drug cultures of radical anti establishment people who feel no need to conform to society and want to act out....

. Glad you feel safe in Seattle  now that they are trying to get rid of the police it will be fun. ...  not me

[clo]

2 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

No  I do not like high crime, drug cultures of radical anti establishment people who feel no need to conform to society and want to act out....

. Glad you feel safe in Seattle  now that they are trying to get rid of the police it will be fun. ...  not me

wimp

[RJB]

15 hours ago, Hawaiidan said:

Happy to help in it's demise.....  They have turned their great city  into an unsafe nightmare  like Portland has..... As they say, as you cast your bread on the water so shall you reap....   Bad behavior deserves what it gets

Too bad.  Both used to be  very nice city's.  Not now.  Never get me there again until they make it right.  If they ever can.  Both may be too far gone.  

[clo]

2 hours ago, RJB said:

Too bad.  Both used to be  very nice city's.  Not now.  Never get me there again until they make it right.  If they ever can.  Both may be too far gone.  

As I said, we're in Seattle five or six times a year, go everywhere and love it. When were you there last?

[Hawaiidan]

3 hours ago, clo said:

As I said, we're in Seattle five or six times a year, go everywhere and love it. When were you there last?

2014.... and it was pretty bad homeless, all over the waterfront.. Panhandlers aggressive to you, People staggering around whacked on drugs  and   outside the hotels too...  The permissive attitude of the city and residents enables this....  just look at the past 2 years....autonomous zones and violence for months on end.......   I do not enjoy that level of vulgar sophistication anywhere.  Even the police do not feel safe there

[clo]

19 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said:

2014.... and it was pretty bad homeless, all over the waterfront.. Panhandlers aggressive to you, People staggering around whacked on drugs  and   outside the hotels too...  The permissive attitude of the city and residents enables this....  just look at the past 2 years....autonomous zones and violence for months on end.......   I do not enjoy that level of vulgar sophistication anywhere.  Even the police do not feel safe there

To each their own. We love big cities and the countryside. Hate the burbs. I guess having lived in SF for so long we're pretty immune to the things that bother YOU. But this thread isn't about that. But rather what would SEA do without the cruise business...which I think would be monumental.

[Daniel A]

1 hour ago, clo said:

But this thread isn't about that. But rather what would SEA do without the cruise business...which I think would be monumental.

I was under the impression this is a discussion about Key West and their banning people from visiting from a cruise ship.

[Tranquility Base]

28 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

I was under the impression this is a discussion about Key West and their banning people from visiting from a cruise ship.

But they haven't.

 

[clo]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

I was under the impression this is a discussion about Key West and their banning people from visiting from a cruise ship.

I think it quite logically spread to other ports, both pre and post and interim like KW.

[Pitcairn17]

On 11/25/2020 at 2:07 PM, Daniel A said:

I’m not convinced that the residents of one municipality have to right to block US citizens from entering the municipality.  I’m not a lawyer but it seems to me that it would be a violation of the Interstate Commerce Clause of the US Constitution.  

 

“Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3, of the Constitution empowers Congress "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among several States, and with the Indian Tribes." The term commerce as used in the Constitution means business or commercial exchanges in any and all of its forms between citizens of different states, including purely social communications between citizens of different states by telegraph, telephone, or radio, and the mere passage of persons from one state to another for either business or pleasure”

 

Interstate commerce clause legal definition of Interstate commerce clause (thefreedictionary.com)

 

Unfortunately, the new charter amendments in Key West probably cannot be challenged in court until somebody is harmed by the change.  With The CDC blocking any cruises to anywhere, it will be a while before any US citizens are blocked from entering the City of Key West.  I think that’s when it will end up in court.

 

As I said, I’m not a lawyer,  maybe one or two might want to address this with more expertise.

 

Sorry about the formatting, for some reason, I can't get the quote to format properly.☹️

 

But they aren’t blocking US citizens from entering. US citizens - and foreign nationals for that matter - are free to enter Key West via the Overseas Highway from Florida, via private boat, via high-speed commercial ferry from Miami, whatever. What they ARE doing is regulating (not prohibiting) dockage access for foreign-flag vessels entering from international waters.  My read is that such is outside the scope and intent of the Commerce Clause, and certainly not a "rights" issue. 

[clo]

22 hours ago, Hawaiidan said:

they are trying to get rid of the police it will be fun. ...  not me

Oh good grief. That's not the plan at all. You say these things and I suppose some people actually believe them. You may want to consider going somewhere remote, live off the grid, etc.

[Daniel A]

3 hours ago, Pitcairn17 said:

 

But they aren’t blocking US citizens from entering. US citizens - and foreign nationals for that matter - are free to enter Key West via the Overseas Highway from Florida, via private boat, via high-speed commercial ferry from Miami, whatever. What they ARE doing is regulating (not prohibiting) dockage access for foreign-flag vessels entering from international waters.  My read is that such is outside the scope and intent of the Commerce Clause, and certainly not a "rights" issue. 

So when a cruise ship arrives in KW with 1200 PAX and they get off into KW, then I arrive on Insignia with 700 PAX.  According to the KW Charter, now only 300 of the 700 can go into KW, the rest must stay onboard.  If I'm one of the 400 who must remain on board, I have been blocked from entering a US City.  I still think that violates the clause.  In that scenario, what if I need to go to a pharmacy in KW to replace an asthma inhaler that I lost during my cruise.  I would say I have been denied access to obtaining life saving medication and that's real harm.

 

They are not regulating  vessels, they are regulating the PEOPLE aboard the vessels. The actual text of the amendment reads:

 

"Cruise ships with the capacity to carry 1,300 or more persons (passengers and crew) shall be prohibited from disembarking individuals at any and all public or privately owned or leased property located within the municipal boundary of the City of Key West."

 

As you can see, they are not regulating the size of the vessels.  They can still dock there, the passengers are being blocked from entry to the City of Key West.

[hamrag]

6 hours ago, Daniel A said:

So when a cruise ship arrives in KW with 1200 PAX and they get off into KW, then I arrive on Insignia with 700 PAX.  According to the KW Charter, now only 300 of the 700 can go into KW, the rest must stay onboard.  If I'm one of the 400 who must remain on board, I have been blocked from entering a US City.  I still think that violates the clause.  In that scenario, what if I need to go to a pharmacy in KW to replace an asthma inhaler that I lost during my cruise.  I would say I have been denied access to obtaining life saving medication and that's real harm.

 

Call the pharmacy, they'll deliver such to the ship and save your life! 🙄 

[pinotlover]

I believe that NCLH, Carnival, RCCL, HAL, Disney, Crystal, et.al. should do as the good citizens want and remove KW as a port of call for all of their individual cruise lines and ships. They want solitude, let them have it. Then they can decide if they like the cost of said solitude .

 

We certainly changed our plans on staying there for a week in February. Heaven forbid our rental car pollute their air and disturb their peace while we pay to stay in the Hyatt and eat meals in the town’s various restaurants.

[Daniel A]

33 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

I believe that NCLH, Carnival, RCCL, HAL, Disney, Crystal, et.al. should do as the good citizens want and remove KW as a port of call for all of their individual cruise lines and ships. They want solitude, let them have it. Then they can decide if they like the cost of said solitude .

 

We certainly changed our plans on staying there for a week in February. Heaven forbid our rental car pollute their air and disturb their peace while we pay to stay in the Hyatt and eat meals in the town’s various restaurants.

Maybe those lines should get together and anchor off KW just to the west where the 'mega ships' would block the views from Mallory Square of the sunset.  Not much of a celebration when there's no sunset to see...

 

On the topic of cruise ships anchoring off KW, it might be legal to anchor off KW and let an entrepreneur start a shuttle service so that the PAX would be disembarking from a small private local ferry service not the cruise ship.  If the cruise ship is anchored off Key West, is wouldn't be within the city  limits and only the ferry would be entering the city and disembarking the PAX.  Another alternative is use the portion of Stock Island which is not within KW city limits as a disembarkation point.

 

I don't know why I'm even concerned with this, I'm not going to travel to Key West anymore if that's how they feel about me.  In the past, I always drove there and stayed for a week - no more...

[LHT28]

slow week

[Hawaiidan]

16 hours ago, clo said:

Oh good grief. That's not the plan at all. You say these things and I suppose some people actually believe them. You may want to consider going somewhere remote, live off the grid, etc.

That was the city council vote and the Mayor...   Crime is between 186% and 128% above national norms  according to Seattle Police  Dept as of 11-25-2020 at 5 pm....The Police Chief resigned saying the future was impossible...   Maybe you should  get informed to the extent you always claim others are misinformed.