Key West Votes to Ban Mega Ships

[nocl]

2 hours ago, pinotlover said:

From the Port of Key West’s website:

 

“The Port of Key West is a major economic engine for the City and local businesses, resulting in an economic impact of $85 million per year. The port provides 1250 direct and indirect jobs to 25,000 citizens, while contributing 15 percent of the City’s total revenue.

 

These passengers are introduced to the unique charm of Key West, without contributing vehicular traffic to the overburdened US-1 corridor. “

 

How many of those 1250 people with direct jobs or 25,000 indirect got to vote in that election? 
 

Are those citizens prepared to make up most of that $85 million in lost revenue in new taxes? 
 

Perhaps the State is trying to protect a lot of affected citizens that don’t live within the City limits. 

I expect that most of them would have had the opportunity to vote.  Of course what the article you referenced does not mention is what the financial impact of the over night visitors to KW contribute, which is considerable more than the port.  However, the impact of the cruise visitors is having a negative impact on the more lucrative over night visitors.

 

In Monroe county tourist spending in 2018 was 2.4 Billion with over 950 million spent for lodging. For Key West itself tourist spending was over 1.1 billion. 

 

https://www.monroecounty-fl.gov/DocumentCenter/View/21667/Economic-Impact-of-Tourism-in-The-Florida-Keys-?bidId=#:~:text=Of the 5.1 million visitors,and 20% from international origins.

 

Cruise ship passengers (about 1 million) in 2019 accounted for a little less than half of the tourists, but only 7% of the spend

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by nocl

[nocl]

Duplicate

Edited January 26, 2021 by nocl

[jagoffee]

6 hours ago, Daniel A said:

You got me interested so I looked it up.  Here is what I discovered:  In Florida, the bill does not require the signature of the governor.  If he signs it, it becomes law.  If he doesn't sign it and allows it to sit on his desk, it becomes law.  If he actively vetoes the bill then it goes back to both houses for a 2/3 override in each house.  In the Federal System and probably other states, when the chief executive (president or governor) allows the bill to sit on his desk without a signature, it becomes a 'pocket veto.'  Apparently under Florida's system the opposite happens and the unsigned bill becomes law.

Interesting.  Thanks for the research.  Very unusual.  

 

[Daniel A]

12 hours ago, clo said:

They're limiting the type of SHIPS!

 

8 hours ago, nocl said:

There are quite a few places that do limit the number of visitors or the type of transport.  Several of the national parks do not allow you to drive in for example, others have quotas.  If you hike in many areas in the west there are quotas on the trails.

 

Not uncommon to have some limits on the number of people or type of transport to preserve an area.  In Key West there is concern over the impact of cruise ships on the waters around the island.

 

Also the limits in Key West is not on people, but a limit on the type of transportation that can visit an area.  For example there is no restriction if the cruise line wants to bus people from Miami to Key West, only on the size and type of ship that can dock at the city.

Both statements are not accurate.  Key West voted to ban ships with a capacity of 1300 persons (that is PAX and Crew) not ships of a certain tonnage.  If the ships are under that capacity, the ban goes further to ban more than 1,500 cruise passengers permitted to disembark each day.  So if two ships are docked and each has 1200 souls on board, 900 people are banned from disembarking into the city.  How does KW plan to decide who are the 900 who aren't permitted in Key West?  In my book, when they state they are preventing people from entering the city, it is a ban on people. 

 

We're not writing about National Parks or amusement parks, we are discussing municipalities in the United States.  Can the borough of Gettysburg ban you from entering the borough because they set an arbitrary limit on how many 'tourists' can enter the borough?  How about the college town restricting the number of students allowed to leave campus and enter the town?

[marieps]

Civilized, thoughtful debate.  How refreshing compared to what we see from the people who govern us.

[Daniel A]

21 minutes ago, marieps said:

Civilized, thoughtful debate.  How refreshing compared to what we see from the people who govern us.

Thank you, that is what I try to do.  🙂 

[nocl]

3 hours ago, Daniel A said:

 

Both statements are not accurate.  Key West voted to ban ships with a capacity of 1300 persons (that is PAX and Crew) not ships of a certain tonnage.  If the ships are under that capacity, the ban goes further to ban more than 1,500 cruise passengers permitted to disembark each day.  So if two ships are docked and each has 1200 souls on board, 900 people are banned from disembarking into the city.  How does KW plan to decide who are the 900 who aren't permitted in Key West?  In my book, when they state they are preventing people from entering the city, it is a ban on people. 

 

We're not writing about National Parks or amusement parks, we are discussing municipalities in the United States.  Can the borough of Gettysburg ban you from entering the borough because they set an arbitrary limit on how many 'tourists' can enter the borough?  How about the college town restricting the number of students allowed to leave campus and enter the town?

we are talking about places that have restrictions on numbers of people or types of transportation. I gave some examples but here are a few more.

 

A beach town near me has limited public parking and does not allow street parking so once all the spots are filled late arrivals are out of luck. They will also close the road into town once the lots fill. They also do not allow vehicles over a certain length into town (buses for example). So not unlike not allowing cruise ships over a certain size

 

so there are plenty of examples of places that limit or restrict numbers or types of vehicles nothing illegal about it.

 

As far as your example you would not have both ships allow to dock so it would not be an example of selecting specific passengers.

 

Bottom line the town is protecting its quality of life and its major source of income, the overnight visitor that makes up half of its visitors but accounts for 93% of the money spent in town.

 

 

[Hlitner]

We can certainly keep debating the pros and cons of the Key West referendums.  But I think the most interesting facet is that the 3 anti-cruise referendums passed by such a wide margin which we can assume reflects the feelings of the residents.  When I first started posting about this (before November) it was in the context of a growing anti-cruise movement around the world.   In fact, Key West is not even the first US cruise port to run into these anti cruise issues (it has been an issue in Charleston, SC for many years).  

 

As both an avid cruiser (often more then 100 days a year) and frequent independent land traveler we do see both sides of the issue.  In some cases I think the anti cruise sentiment makes little sense.  But in cases like Key West; Venice, Italy; La Spezia, Italy;  Santorini, Greece and some other places I do think there is a very good case to banning large cruise ships and limiting total number of cruise tourists per day.   In other cases such as St Thomas, since Charlotte Amalie has already been ruined by overtourism from ships there is no benefit to now imposing limitations (i.e. the damage has already been done).

 

There are some places that seem to have adapted to having lots of cruise ships (Barcelona and Port Everglades coming quickly to mind) and they often have something in common.  Not only do they have fine ports but they are generally located in major cities or relatively close to large cities.  Big cities can often absorb lots of cruise tourism without major problems.   But small towns like Key West and La Spezia (near Riomaggiore) are just not suited to lots of cruisers.  

 

It has become obvious that the cruise industry is not going to help find and mitigate overtourism.  Many governments are also doing little to deal with overtourism since they get greedy and just see the money.  So it now falls to locals to do the deed and protect their communities and way of life.  We think the best example of this has been Venice, Italy (an issue we have followed for over 20 years) where there has been a real tug of war between those that want to limit/ban big ships and those that want to welcome the masses (without any regard to the cost/damage).  

 

As cruise ship continue to grow in size (and number of passengers) this overtourism issue is only going to become a bigger problem and further inflame passions on both sides.  It would be nice to see the cruise industry (through their CLIA Organization) take a more active role in self-regulation but I will not hold my breath.

 

Hank

[clo]

3 hours ago, Daniel A said:

Key West voted to ban ships with a capacity of 1300 persons (that is PAX and Crew) not ships of a certain tonnage. 

You're splitting hairs.

[Daniel A]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

As far as your example you would not have both ships allow to dock so it would not be an example of selecting specific passengers.

I may have missed something here, but where did you see that they limited the number of ships as well?  It is obvious if one charter amendment says no ships that can have more than 1300 people onboard and another one says no more than 1500 people can disembark in the same day, they obviously anticipate more than one ship can dock the same day.

 

Whatever, It isn't my desire to debate the pros or cons of the vote in KW.  I just wanted to update that the vote in KW isn't necessarily a done deal.  We'll just have to wait and see what the Florida legislature thinks about the bans.

 

Good debate though!

 

 

[nocl]

1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

I may have missed something here, but where did you see that they limited the number of ships as well?  It is obvious if one charter amendment says no ships that can have more than 1300 people onboard and another one says no more than 1500 people can disembark in the same day, they obviously anticipate more than one ship can dock the same day.

 

Whatever, It isn't my desire to debate the pros or cons of the vote in KW.  I just wanted to update that the vote in KW isn't necessarily a done deal.  We'll just have to wait and see what the Florida legislature thinks about the bans.

 

Good debate though!

 

 

It is all in the implementation.  The way they will limit the number of passengers that disembark, is by limiting the ship calls such that no more than 1500 can disembark.  Not by counting the number of passengers getting off.

 

Will be interesting to see how the other ports in FL like the thought of their losing local control of their ports (which tend to be under county control).

[nocl]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

We can certainly keep debating the pros and cons of the Key West referendums.  But I think the most interesting facet is that the 3 anti-cruise referendums passed by such a wide margin which we can assume reflects the feelings of the residents.  When I first started posting about this (before November) it was in the context of a growing anti-cruise movement around the world.   In fact, Key West is not even the first US cruise port to run into these anti cruise issues (it has been an issue in Charleston, SC for many years).  

 

As both an avid cruiser (often more then 100 days a year) and frequent independent land traveler we do see both sides of the issue.  In some cases I think the anti cruise sentiment makes little sense.  But in cases like Key West; Venice, Italy; La Spezia, Italy;  Santorini, Greece and some other places I do think there is a very good case to banning large cruise ships and limiting total number of cruise tourists per day.   In other cases such as St Thomas, since Charlotte Amalie has already been ruined by overtourism from ships there is no benefit to now imposing limitations (i.e. the damage has already been done).

 

There are some places that seem to have adapted to having lots of cruise ships (Barcelona and Port Everglades coming quickly to mind) and they often have something in common.  Not only do they have fine ports but they are generally located in major cities or relatively close to large cities.  Big cities can often absorb lots of cruise tourism without major problems.   But small towns like Key West and La Spezia (near Riomaggiore) are just not suited to lots of cruisers.  

 

It has become obvious that the cruise industry is not going to help find and mitigate overtourism.  Many governments are also doing little to deal with overtourism since they get greedy and just see the money.  So it now falls to locals to do the deed and protect their communities and way of life.  We think the best example of this has been Venice, Italy (an issue we have followed for over 20 years) where there has been a real tug of war between those that want to limit/ban big ships and those that want to welcome the masses (without any regard to the cost/damage).  

 

As cruise ship continue to grow in size (and number of passengers) this overtourism issue is only going to become a bigger problem and further inflame passions on both sides.  It would be nice to see the cruise industry (through their CLIA Organization) take a more active role in self-regulation but I will not hold my breath.

 

Hank

Barcelona has also taken steps to limit day visitors to the city.  They have decreased the number of ship calls in favor of home porting of ships.  Days calls have been reduced from 60% to 40% of ships calls in the port.

 

Having cruised for a number of years it is amazing how formerly remarkable ports to visit are now almost unvisitable due to the massive size and numbers of ships.

 

[LHT28]

I saw  a program on Barcelona  where one of the  resident guides  mentioned how  less congested the city was without cruise ship pax

The locals  were able to enjoy their own city  without the crowds from cruise pax

  many other ports  may be starting to rethink the cruise ships allowed  in after  the past year without the crowds

JMO

[Daniel A]

3 hours ago, nocl said:

It is all in the implementation.  The way they will limit the number of passengers that disembark, is by limiting the ship calls such that no more than 1500 can disembark.  Not by counting the number of passengers getting off.

 

Will be interesting to see how the other ports in FL like the thought of their losing local control of their ports (which tend to be under county control).

Sorry, I missed where Key West said that in the referendum.

[clo]

3 hours ago, nocl said:

Barcelona has also taken steps to limit day visitors to the city. 

I understand that Dubrovnik has also. We were there on a land visit and it was just dreadful. Way too many tourists.

[nocl]

1 minute ago, Daniel A said:

Sorry, I missed where Key West said that in the referendum.

It wasn't in the referendum though it has come up in discussion in Key West about how it would be implemented.  Saw it in the Key West newspaper a week or so after the referendum. The number of passengers is another limit, as well as the number of ships both criteria used in ship scheduling.

[the more ports the better]

I can see places like Cinque Terre and Dubrovnik, etc. when protecting world heritage sites is paramount but seriously, Key West..... talk about being a bit duplicitous.  
 

It is not on my radar as a cruise stop as I typically go to the Key West world boat races every November and I have might visited Fantasy Fest a time or two......   these are just a few of many crazy out of control Key West sanctioned events.  
 

Fantasy Fest has at least 50,000 people welcomed with open arms over the course of 10 days each October and the city gets beyond trashed every single year (except this year of course, as it was cancelled).  I can not even imagine the clean up costs.  I also can’t believe that few thousand cruisers walking around town browsing gift shops can even compare damage wise.

 

Its kind of selective tourism.  My money is on them making an exception for some of the “naughty” cruises.

[nocl]

On 1/26/2021 at 6:23 PM, the more ports the better said:

I can see places like Cinque Terre and Dubrovnik, etc. when protecting world heritage sites is paramount but seriously, Key West..... talk about being a bit duplicitous.  
 

It is not on my radar as a cruise stop as I typically go to the Key West world boat races every November and I have might visited Fantasy Fest a time or two......   these are just a few of many crazy out of control Key West sanctioned events.  
 

Fantasy Fest has at least 50,000 people welcomed with open arms over the course of 10 days each October and the city gets beyond trashed every single year (except this year of course, as it was cancelled).  I can not even imagine the clean up costs.  I also can’t believe that few thousand cruisers walking around town browsing gift shops can even compare damage wise.

 

Its kind of selective tourism.  My money is on them making an exception for some of the “naughty” cruises.

The difference is the 50,000 dine in local restaurants, stay in local hotels. In general drop a lot of money.  They might leave a mess, but they also leave a lot of money.  Cruise passengers leave less of a mess (unless you consider Diamonds international and expanding number of shops aimed at cruise ships passengers), but leave much much less money per person.

Edited January 28, 2021 by nocl

[Hlitner]

On 1/26/2021 at 8:23 PM, the more ports the better said:

I can see places like Cinque Terre and Dubrovnik, etc. when protecting world heritage sites is paramount but seriously, Key West..... talk about being a bit duplicitous.  
 

It is not on my radar as a cruise stop as I typically go to the Key West world boat races every November and I have might visited Fantasy Fest a time or two......   these are just a few of many crazy out of control Key West sanctioned events.  
 

Fantasy Fest has at least 50,000 people welcomed with open arms over the course of 10 days each October and the city gets beyond trashed every single year (except this year of course, as it was cancelled).  I can not even imagine the clean up costs.  I also can’t believe that few thousand cruisers walking around town browsing gift shops can even compare damage wise.

 

Its kind of selective tourism.  My money is on them making an exception for some of the “naughty” cruises.

I am trying to stick with facts rather then opinion.  Just about everyone I talked to in Key West (we were most recently there in December) said the same things.  The cruise ships stir up the silt on the bottom of the channel and cloud the nearby water.  Once the ships stopped coming last March, after a few days the locals (many do enjoy the water for boating, snorkeling, and even SCUBA) noticed that the water was clearer then it had been in years.  The cruise industry has known about the channel issue (and the narrow path way through nearby reefs) and a few years ago they pushed the idea of widening and deepening the channel.  This never got anywhere and I was told (although do not know for myself) that several environmental groups had multiple reasons to oppose changes to the ship channel.  

 

The other issue is that cruisers do not really spend a lot of money in KW when compared to visitors who stay in KW (another post talked about statistics).  Consider that cruisers do not stay at the hotels and most do not use the restaurants (and are never there for dinner).    As to "selective tourism" there is nothing new to that idea.   Most tourist cities do their best to attract the tourists that spend the most money.

 

Hank

 

Hank

[pinotlover]

Enough already. If KW residents doesn’t want the jobs and revenue associated with the cruise ship sailing industry, give them what they want. The good, bad, and ugly.

 

Personally, I cancelled a late February stay there because of their anti tourist positions. Perhaps it will draw others in.

 

Let the locals decide, they obviously don’t care about those 1250 losing their jobs. I hope those folks don’t stay around and facilitate those voted to eliminate their livelihood, but move out to search for more other locations more welcoming to all tourists.

Edited January 30, 2021 by pinotlover

[nocl]

1 hour ago, pinotlover said:

Enough already. If KW residents doesn’t want the jobs and revenue associated with the cruise ship sailing industry, give them what they want. The good, bad, and ugly.

 

Personally, I cancelled a late February stay there because of their anti tourist positions. Perhaps it will draw others in.

 

Let the locals decide, they obviously don’t care about those 1250 losing their jobs. I hope those folks don’t stay around and facilitate those voted to eliminate their livelihood, but move out to search for more other locations more welcoming to all tourists.

Considering that 1 million land tourists spend over a billion per year in Key West (93% of tourist spend) and the 1 million cruise ship passengers spend less than a tenth of that (7% of tourist spend). I am sure they will do fine. Especially since that lack of cruise ship masses will make it better for the land based tourists. Less crowds, clearer water for snorkeling, etc.

[YoHoHo]

2 hours ago, pinotlover said:

Enough already. If KW residents doesn’t want the jobs and revenue associated with the cruise ship sailing industry, give them what they want. The good, bad, and ugly.

 

Personally, I cancelled a late February stay there because of their anti tourist positions. Perhaps it will draw others in.

 

Let the locals decide, they obviously don’t care about those 1250 losing their jobs. I hope those folks don’t stay around and facilitate those voted to eliminate their livelihood, but move out to search for more other locations more welcoming to all tourists.

It took a while but you've got it now. Hopefully you will be happier having cancelled than if you went.

Edited January 30, 2021 by YoHoHo

[pinotlover]

When I go ashore, at any port, I always do tours, visit the local sights, and eat local cuisine at their restaurants and cafes. I realize not every one does that. So it appears that the residents of KW have opted to stereotype all cruisers . Stereotyping and redlining seem to be popular in some locales. Should we next approve of road blocks when coming off the bridge stereotyping, redlining, and refusing entry to those they don’t want in?

 

Turn your @ss around boy, we don’t want your type here. You and all those swarmy cruiser types!

Edited January 30, 2021 by pinotlover

[nocl]

4 hours ago, pinotlover said:

When I go ashore, at any port, I always do tours, visit the local sights, and eat local cuisine at their restaurants and cafes. I realize not every one does that. So it appears that the residents of KW have opted to stereotype all cruisers . Stereotyping and redlining seem to be popular in some locales. Should we next approve of road blocks when coming off the bridge stereotyping, redlining, and refusing entry to those they don’t want in?

 

Turn your @ss around boy, we don’t want your type here. You and all those swarmy cruiser types!

They are not stereo typing cruiser, merely limiting the number to a reasonable number of day visitors per day, 1300,  and the ship sizes to minimize damage to the waters around the ship channel.

 

Blame the cruise lines for their wanting to build ever larger ships, not managing passenger numbers at any port (as long as they can dock they will send a ship).

 

That is why a number of ports around the world are taking actions to limit the number of cruise line passengers and ships sizes - Venice, Dubrovnik, Barcelona, Santorini, etc. If the cruise lines won't more and more locations will.

[clo]

19 hours ago, nocl said:

Considering that 1 million land tourists spend over a billion per year in Key West (93% of tourist spend) and the 1 million cruise ship passengers spend less than a tenth of that (7% of tourist spend). I am sure they will do fine. Especially since that lack of cruise ship masses will make it better for the land based tourists. Less crowds, clearer water for snorkeling, etc.

This appears to be a broad-based peeve of pinotlover. 

 

We were in Dubrovnik a few years ago and it was a mess with cruise ships there. I understand it may have changed since UNESCO threatened their heritage status if they didn't do something.