All Carnival Cruises Canceled through 1/31/2020

[WAMarathoner]

15 hours ago, leck57 said:

As long as I have had the vaccination and my fellow cruise passengers have as well, I don't really care what's happening on dry land.

Why would you care if your fellow passengers had the vaccination when it supposedly protects you?  Doesn't make sense -- if you are vaccinated against it, why would it matter if your tablemate wasn't?  You're vaccinated, right?

[caribill]

5 hours ago, WAMarathoner said:

Why would you care if your fellow passengers had the vaccination when it supposedly protects you?  Doesn't make sense -- if you are vaccinated against it, why would it matter if your tablemate wasn't?  You're vaccinated, right?

Unless you are one of the 5% that the vaccine is not effective for.

[leck57]

8 hours ago, WAMarathoner said:

Why would you care if your fellow passengers had the vaccination when it supposedly protects you?  Doesn't make sense -- if you are vaccinated against it, why would it matter if your tablemate wasn't?  You're vaccinated, right?

 

Fair point. I guess to minimise any chance of the virus getting on the ship, if everyone has the vaccine then hopefully that should prevent any potential problems. One positive case will probably mean a repeat of the early situations where no one would let ships berth.

However your point is valid. Personally, I want cruise lines to mandate that the vaccination is compulsory.

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, WAMarathoner said:

Why would you care if your fellow passengers had the vaccination when it supposedly protects you?  Doesn't make sense -- if you are vaccinated against it, why would it matter if your tablemate wasn't?  You're vaccinated, right?

Even if you do not get sick, you are affected of someone else does. Given past experience, ports may deny all passengers from embarking, the entire ship might be quarantined, or the cruise could be cut short.

[Daniel A]

15 hours ago, joepeka said:

The CDC has had "their grubby fingers in the cruise industry pie" forever - they are the ones doing ship inspections (the Vessel Sanitation Program) and issuing sanctions for violations.

Yes, I was aware of the VSP which is concerned with GI disorders.  Maybe I should have said 'deeper into the pie...'  I had presumed it was understood that I was referencing the additional regulations from Covid and whether or not they will disappear aft the end of the pandemic, but I could have made my point more clear.

[phabric]

Today, Princess has cancelled all sailings to March 31, 2021.  Either 100% refund fill in online form by Dec 2020 or 125% FCC nothing to do.

[WAMarathoner]

Yeah, sad to see that.  Damned CDC.  The 125% isn't enough to cover moving it out a year.  We got a great rate initially and nothing seems comparable up to 125% of that.  Wish they had followed RCCL's Lift and Shift instead.

[voljeep]

7 minutes ago, WAMarathoner said:

Yeah, sad to see that.  Damned CDC.  The 125% isn't enough to cover moving it out a year.  We got a great rate initially and nothing seems comparable up to 125% of that.  Wish they had followed RCCL's Lift and Shift instead.

exactly - our cruise booked for 4/2021 is $ 100 pp pd less than a comparable 4/2022 date

[caribill]

17 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Even if you do not get sick, you are affected of someone else does. Given past experience, ports may deny all passengers from embarking, the entire ship might be quarantined, or the cruise could be cut short.

 

The cruise could be cut short, but the CDC requirements include making arrangement in advance for being able to go to a port if a Covid-19 case shows up on the ship.

[chengkp75]

On 11/18/2020 at 12:50 PM, Daniel A said:

One of my concerns is that new 'temporary' regulations have a habit of not going away even after the need for them no longer exists.  Now that CDC has their grubby fingers in the cruise industry pie will they return to the previous status quo after Covid-19 is controlled or eliminated?

So, since the VSP has virtually eliminated many foodborne illnesses like e. coli, and botulism from cruise ships, I guess you feel that those regulations should go away?  While many of the "front line" requirements for covid remediation will go away as the pandemic recedes, the most costly ones, the private agreements with health care, transportation, and lodging (quarantine) service providers will likely remain (as the CDC suggests in the CSO) as permanent requirements.  While these will affect the cost of cruising in the future, I think they are actually fair and equitable, making that cost similar to the taxes paid to municipalities that support health care and emergency infrastructure by other leisure industries.  Too long have the cruise lines shifted their medical expenses to shoreside facilities that they do nothing to support.

 

As for eliminating covid?  Smallpox took decades to eradicate, even with the WHO making billions of house calls in underdeveloped nations to ensure vaccinations and quarantines.  TB was on its way out, but is likely to have a resurgence due to the covid pandemic, and that work has also been going on for decades. 

[Daniel A]

54 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, since the VSP has virtually eliminated many foodborne illnesses like e. coli, and botulism from cruise ships, I guess you feel that those regulations should go away?  While many of the "front line" requirements for covid remediation will go away as the pandemic recedes, the most costly ones, the private agreements with health care, transportation, and lodging (quarantine) service providers will likely remain (as the CDC suggests in the CSO) as permanent requirements.  While these will affect the cost of cruising in the future, I think they are actually fair and equitable, making that cost similar to the taxes paid to municipalities that support health care and emergency infrastructure by other leisure industries.  Too long have the cruise lines shifted their medical expenses to shoreside facilities that they do nothing to support.

 

As for eliminating covid?  Smallpox took decades to eradicate, even with the WHO making billions of house calls in underdeveloped nations to ensure vaccinations and quarantines.  TB was on its way out, but is likely to have a resurgence due to the covid pandemic, and that work has also been going on for decades. 

Your guess would be wrong.  I never said VSP should be eliminated.  I clearly indicated my concern was that new temporary regulations would remain in place forever.  The VSP continues to be effective in controlling some GI illnesses so why would I wish the program to be eliminated?  I’m only referencing the temporary regs that are instituted as a result of Covid-19 pandemic.  It is not unreasonable to believe that at some point the pandemic will come to an end.  My concern is when that happens, will the additional regs remain in place?  I’m sure you wouldn’t want your governor to keep a 10PM to 5AM curfew going in perpetuity or keeping restaurants shut down forever because the bureaucrats tell you that they are saving you from a resurgence of Covid disease.

 

 

I’m reminded of the story where the young boy is walking down the street banging loudly on a trash can lid.  When a policeman asked him why he was making such a racket, the boy replied he was scaring away tigers.  When the policeman told the boy there were no tigers anywhere near the city, the boy replied "See what a good job I’m doing?”

[Luckiestmanonearth]

On 11/18/2020 at 12:58 PM, mcrcruiser said:

Imo ,The only way this is going away is with successful  vaccinations of at least 70% of the US population . Thus ,go figure the time line from there &  most likely that will be the time cruises can resume out of USA ports

Agree.  It’s likely resumption of cruising may not be until end of 2021

[Luckiestmanonearth]

On 11/19/2020 at 9:07 PM, WAMarathoner said:

Why would you care if your fellow passengers had the vaccination when it supposedly protects you?  Doesn't make sense -- if you are vaccinated against it, why would it matter if your tablemate wasn't?  You're vaccinated, right?

Here in lies the problem in peoples thinking of the vaccine.

 

My guess is even if people get vaccinated, there will still be a need to practice social distancing and wearing of masks for a period of time as a precaution .  Just because one gets vaccinated doesn’t mean the need to be extra careful goes away.

[chengkp75]

20 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

My concern is when that happens, will the additional regs remain in place?  I’m sure you wouldn’t want your governor to keep a 10PM to 5AM curfew going in perpetuity or keeping restaurants shut down forever because the bureaucrats tell you that they are saving you from a resurgence of Covid disease.

The thing is, no one has ever addressed an airborne virus on cruise ships.  Things like flu and colds are common on cruise ships (the cruise crud), and maybe some of the measures instituted for covid will help control these common airborne viruses, as well as any future viruses that epidemiologists predict will be out there.  Of course I don't want an indefinite curfew or shutting down restaurants, that is just using an extreme example to try to make your point.  But, I do believe that much thought should go into how life goes on in the future, whether it be in restaurant capacity or airflow patterns for that restaurant's AC system.  Just as life changed after the 1918 pandemic, from social practices to health care philosophy, life will change after covid, and many of the "temporary" measures introduced from covid will become the new norm.  Just as noro moved onto cruise ships in the absence of other GI illnesses, airborne viruses like covid will continue to spring up, and affect the world as we remove other pathogens.

 

33 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Your guess would be wrong.  I never said VSP should be eliminated.  I clearly indicated my concern was that new temporary regulations would remain in place forever.  The VSP continues to be effective in controlling some GI illnesses so why would I wish the program to be eliminated?

I'm sure that at the time the VSP was originated, back in the 70's, that it was thought to be a temporary measure, yet here it is, morphing from botulism protection to the then relatively new viruses of noro, and legionella.  Will covid measures change as time goes on?  Sure.  But some form of protection against airborne viruses needs to remain in place.

[Daniel A]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The thing is, no one has ever addressed an airborne virus on cruise ships.  Things like flu and colds are common on cruise ships (the cruise crud), and maybe some of the measures instituted for covid will help control these common airborne viruses, as well as any future viruses that epidemiologists predict will be out there.  Of course I don't want an indefinite curfew or shutting down restaurants, that is just using an extreme example to try to make your point.  But, I do believe that much thought should go into how life goes on in the future, whether it be in restaurant capacity or airflow patterns for that restaurant's AC system.  Just as life changed after the 1918 pandemic, from social practices to health care philosophy, life will change after covid, and many of the "temporary" measures introduced from covid will become the new norm.  Just as noro moved onto cruise ships in the absence of other GI illnesses, airborne viruses like covid will continue to spring up, and affect the world as we remove other pathogens.

 

I'm sure that at the time the VSP was originated, back in the 70's, that it was thought to be a temporary measure, yet here it is, morphing from botulism protection to the then relatively new viruses of noro, and legionella.  Will covid measures change as time goes on?  Sure.  But some form of protection against airborne viruses needs to remain in place.

I'm not arguing with you on any of this.  I'm a retired government worker with 40+ years of experience at both national and local levels.  I've seen how new regulations and laws get put in place with no thought of reviewing which ones are no longer needed.  It can get to the point that rule violations become impossible to avoid.  Bureaucrats seem to love unfunded mandates.  I've always said that a person could be the only person on a deserted island and somehow he's in violation of some rule of the NYS Vehicle and Traffic law.

 

On another point you may be able to answer, why isn't the CDC implementing a framework for Conditional Sailing Orders for merchant vessels?  Do navies experience these problems on their vessels?

 

Again I don't want to get into a disagreement, these are just my concerns.

[mcrcruiser]

It seems yo us that there are no sure fire answers to this covid 19   problem that we are all involved   . 

 Even when the vaccines become available there is going to be lag time before cruising & other activities come back to a semi normal state  . There is always some  glitches that we find that we all will  have to handle that was not there before 

  What we all want to see is a  cruise industry that will still be able to function from both a health & monetary points of views  .right now both are in serious doubt

[chengkp75]

30 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

On another point you may be able to answer, why isn't the CDC implementing a framework for Conditional Sailing Orders for merchant vessels?  Do navies experience these problems on their vessels?

It's right here on their website, been there since July:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/maritime/recommendations-for-ships.html#

 

The major difference is that on cargo ships, you are in single cabins (for the most part, especially since the MLC 2006 labor convention went into effect), crews are much smaller (about 20-25 per ship), and we don't have masses of passengers coming and going each week.  Typically, the crew live onboard like a large family group, with little to no social distancing or mask wearing, once the group has passed a quarantine period to show that none of the group are infected.  When new crew join, they must wear a mask, and social distance (eat meals in their cabin, for instance) for 14 days.  Crew that interact with shoreside personnel need to wear masks and distance from those personnel, and all shore personnel are required to wear a mask, and are not allowed in crew accommodations.  Pilots are escorted up the exterior ladders to the bridge, and only allowed on the bridge.  The bridge is sanitized after every pilot boarding or when shoreside personnel use it for conducting their business.

 

Merchant Mariners, of any nationality, are considered, by the US government at least, to be essential workers, so there are some limits to restrictions given that the work has to get done.  I have heard of only a handful of covid cases on merchant ships, and none to where it reached an "outbreak" level.  Some of this is the remediation measures outlined above, some is due to many ports not allowing shore leave for crew for many months, and much of it is due to the travel restrictions the rest of the world has placed on ships' crew, leaving over 500,000 mariners still sailing on their ships long after their work tour is over, which just makes the "bubble" even more restricted.

 

I can't speak for the world's navies, but you must remember the outbreak the US Navy had on the aircraft carrier in Guam.  Their living conditions are worse than cruise ships, and I would suspect that only draconian measures are keeping these ships operating.

[Roberto256]

On 11/21/2020 at 9:17 AM, Daniel A said:

 Do navies experience these problems on their vessels?

Here is a report on the USS Theodore Roosevelt.

 

"Over the course of the outbreak, 1,271 sailors (27 percent of the crew) tested positive for severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) by rRT-PCR testing. The authors found that working in confined spaces, enlisted rank, history of angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitor use, respiratory disease, and obese body mass index were associated with an increased risk of infection."

 

https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/News-Stories/Article/2413348/navy-publishes-scientific-paper-on-uss-theodore-roosevelt-covid-19-outbreak/

 

I was surprised by 'obese body mass'.   Too much time at the midnight buffet?