QM2: "Ship" vs. "Boat"?

[ClipperinSFO]

So the recent NY Times profile of Candice Bergen and her being filmed on QM2 has ignited a debate among my friends about the appropriateness of calling the QM2 a boat vs a ship.  The author Maureen Dowd refers twice to the QM2 being a boat, but she also rightly calls the trip a crossing vs a cruise.  

 

Clearly the QM2 is a ship in every proper sense of the word, but describing her as a boat seems equally appropriate especially when she is in Transatlantic service.  "Boat" when applied to large transatlantic liners as a vaguely archaic, retro feel to it.  The terms "fresh off the boat" and "boat train" can refer indeed to ship/liners and not literally to boats.  So am I alone in thinking it's ok to lovingly (and in sympathetic company) refer to the QM2  as a boat especially when in Transatlantic service?

 

What is everyone's thoughts on this admittedly arcane issue ?  

[MCC retired]

I have always thought :

 

A Ship carries Boats

A Boat doesn't carry Boats

Edited December 5, 2020 by MCC retired

[exlondoner]

12 minutes ago, MCC retired said:

I have always thought :

 

A Ship carries Boats

A Boat doesn't carry Boats

 

Except for submarines which are always boats, I'm told.

[Mudhen]

A ship is a boat, but boats are not necessarily ships. (giggle!)

Edited December 5, 2020 by Mudhen
missed a word

[bluemarble]

The popular press is certainly no authority to cite for such matters, but I did find an article from a few years ago in the Travel section of USA Today that might be of some interest/amusement/frustration here. It tends to use the terms "boat" and "ship" interchangeably, although the references to "boat" are more general at the beginning of the article and then they switch to "ship" later when discussing each example. Here are some quotes from that USA Today article (emphasis mine).

 

"How to Travel to Europe by Boat

 

Travelers cross over the Atlantic Ocean by air all the time – few opt to make the trip by boat. But getting to Europe from the United States by boat can actually be a relaxing and economical mode of travel. There are a few different ways to do it: by freighter, repositioning cruise or luxury cruise. Choose your mode of ship travel based on how much you want to spend and how much time you have on your hands.

 

Traveling by Freighter

Freighter cruises allow travelers to hop on board cargo ships to get from one place to another. ...

 

Taking a Repositioning Cruise

Most major cruise companies offer low-season repositioning cruises, which take place when a cruise ship travels from one major port to another in the off-season. ...

 

Springing for a Luxury Cruise

... Cunard runs several transatlantic cruises, including a few round trips. ... On trips like these, the cruise ship makes for most of the vacation, ..."

[Colin_Cameron]

I think the best explanation was given to me by a Cunard captain, a boat owner himself.

 

A ship earns it's keep. A boat is a hole in the water, surrounded by wood or plastic, into which you throw money.

[majortom10]

Dont let the Captain of QM2 hear you calling her a "boat".

[watsonbeau]

Not quite on topic but I like this -

 

“A ship is called a she because there is always a great deal of bustle around her; there is usually a gang of men about; she has a waist and stays; it takes a lot of paint to keep her good-looking; it is not the initial expense that breaks you, it is the upkeep; she can be all decked out; it takes an experienced man to handle her correctly; and without a man at the helm, she is absolutely uncontrollable. She shows her topsides, hiders her bottom and, when coming into port, always heads for the buoys.”

 

have to say other than for submarines, I’d go for the ships can carry a boat but not the other way round.

Edited December 5, 2020 by watsonbeau
Typo

[Lanky Lad]

2 hours ago, Colin_Cameron said:

 A boat is a hole in the water, surrounded by wood or plastic, into which you throw money.

That sounds a lot like QM2 is a boat then.

 

I was always told you can put a boat on a ship, but you can't put a ship on a boat.  Therefore, QM2 is a ship.  A ship I should have been on now heading to New York.

[BigMac1953]

A boat, is what you get into when the ship is sinking.

[BklynBoy8]

I have openly corrected my friends that sail on cruise ship and they call them boats.

 

I very diplomatically correct them that the QM2 is an Ocean Liner categorized as a ship.

 

I definitely know the difference of a Row Boat, Life Boat, Cruise Ship (Boat) and a Ocean Liner (Ship).

 

In June I am looking forward to boarding a Ocean Liner... I know when I approach the Pier and see her (QM2) from a distance that I am board a Ship....   

[david,Mississauga]

Many years ago a cargo ship captain I met on a train told me the difference between a boat and a ship in regards to shipping on the Great Lakes.  A cargo vessel built specifically for transport on the Great Lakes is known as a "laker" and is referred to as a boat. An ocean-going vessel, known as a "salty" is a ship.

[newjoisey]

now days its parked watercraft getting rusty or mothball fleet 

[ExArkie]

Cecil Adams of the Straight Dope (in 1988) says, for motorized craft, "...a ship is a large vessel intended for oceangoing or at least deep-water transport, and a boat is anything else." Then gets into several exceptions before coming around to the bit about ships carry boats, which seems to be the default distinction in most places.

 

Mirriam-Webster has a discussion on the point that essentially comes down to a lack of precision (https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/whats-the-difference-between-a-boat-and-a-ship).

 

My favorite one, from a Scientific American blog in 2012: "a ship's captain gets annoyed if you refer to his vessel as a boat, but a boat's captain does not get annoyed if you refer to his vessel as a ship."

 

[navybankerteacher]

This conversation reminds me of the comparison my first Chief Boatswain’s Mate (one of the most seamanlike and least politically correct men I have ever encountered) used :  “A boat and a ship is like a wench and a woman”.

[Underwatr]

Only Princess has boats (apparently)

 

https://youtu.be/vTK0hr5oAOk

 

 😉

[Rotterdam]

One thing about the QM2.... technically she is a dual purpose cruise ship..her shallow draft allows her into smaller & shallow harbors and her considerable size enables her(along w her extra strength hull) allows her to do the Atlantic crossings.

She is in no way comparable to the OCEANLINERS most people refer to such as NORMANDIE, FRANCE & QE2. They were the last true OCEAN LINERS BUILT...UNFORTUNATELY 🚢🚢🚢

[bluemarble]

A pop culture reference from my younger years comes to mind. The lyrics to "Dreamboat Annie" by Heart tend to indicate Annie is both a (dream)boat and a ship.

 

"Oh Annie, dreamboat Annie
Ship of dreams"

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, Rotterdam said:

One thing about the QM2.... technically she is a dual purpose cruise ship..her shallow draft allows her into smaller & shallow harbors and her considerable size enables her(along w her extra strength hull) allows her to do the Atlantic crossings.

She is in no way comparable to the OCEANLINERS most people refer to such as NORMANDIE, FRANCE & QE2. They were the last true OCEAN LINERS BUILT...UNFORTUNATELY 🚢🚢🚢

Sorry - she is the closest thing to an ocean liner built in recent years.  She has NO "shallow draft" - her 32' 8"  is deeper than RC's Oasis of the seas - which carries more than twice as many passengers.  

Her deep vee hull IS what puts her in the "liner" category.

[jzopp]

4 hours ago, Rotterdam said:

One thing about the QM2...her shallow draft allows her into smaller & shallow harbors and her considerable size [...] to do the Atlantic crossings...She is in no way comparable to the OCEANLINERS most people refer to such as NORMANDIE, FRANCE & QE2.

 

Not to be a contrarian, but according to this draft-as-KPI argument, QE2 also was not an ocean liner. With a 32'/9.8m draft, QE2's draft is less than QM2 (~34'; source) and falls short of both Normandie (~36.5') and France (~34.5').

 

I'm not trying to chime in on whether QM2 is or is not an ocean liner; that's an argument far above my pay grade. But to use draft as part of that argument seems a little disingenuous.

 

(My stance on QM2? She — like many an ocean liner and cruise ship before her — was built to do a job and she does that job well, to include crossing oceans on a more-than-occasional basis. Whatever label anyone affixes to her... will not influence my enjoyment. 😁)

Edited December 7, 2020 by jzopp

[david,Mississauga]

14 hours ago, Rotterdam said:

One thing about the QM2.... technically she is a dual purpose cruise ship..her shallow draft allows her into smaller & shallow harbors and her considerable size enables her(along w her extra strength hull) allows her to do the Atlantic crossings.

She is in no way comparable to the OCEANLINERS most people refer to such as NORMANDIE, FRANCE & QE2. They were the last true OCEAN LINERS BUILT...UNFORTUNATELY 🚢🚢🚢

 

The QE2 was not intended to be a year-round ocean liner. By this time there was litle demand for winter crossings of the Atlantic, so off-season cruises in warmer waters were planned right from the beginning. Conversion from a two-class liner to a one-class cruise ship was easy due to the lack of barriers between the classes. 

 

The absence of a traditional enclosed promenade deck made the QE2 less appealing for winter crossings. One year we made a crossing at the end of November which, although autumn, was in reality a winter crossing. An enclosed promenade would have been appreciated. Our three-year-old son and I had fun making a snowman on the boat deck, though.

[navybankerteacher]

While QM 2 spends most of her winters in warmer waters, she does at least a couple of winter crossings;  those, with her many Atlantic crossings in the rest of the year clearly show her purpose, which along with her hull design clearly make her more liner than cruise ship.   A pettifogger can point out the differences between her and the older Queens,  Normandie, etc.  — but those ships were clearly different in many respects from liners of the early 20th Century and later 19th. — so would you then insist that either they, or their earlier counterparts, were not “true” liners?

[Rotterdam]

The QE2, FRANCE were built as Transatlantic liners & later used for " warm weather cruises"  The fact that QM2 was built as dual purpose ship, and 2 times the size of QE2/FRANCE certainly does matter in relation to draft etc.

A great deal of the popularity of QM2 is marketing based...

CUNARD / CARNIVORE relies on nostalgia  like advertising while maximizing profit. Economies of scale helps ensure greater profit but also  prohibits PANAMA CANAL transits on QM2(QE2 only did one a year on her world cruises).

As far as the interior, QM2 is more Disneyesque than cutting edge( again for cost reasons as opposed making a great statement in design & culture).

Finally I've sailed on QE2, FRANCE  & QM2( along w ROTTERDAM V)  on similar Transatlantic & Carribean routes out of NYC, FLORIDA & EUROPE,

and  anyone that has travelled on QE2 knows the difference in how the ship handles the ocean... in this case BIGGER IS NOT NECESSARILY  BETTER🚢🚢🚢

 

[jzopp]

46 minutes ago, Rotterdam said:

The QE2, FRANCE were built as Transatlantic liners & later used for " warm weather cruises"  The fact that QM2 was built as dual purpose ship, and 2 times the size of QE2/FRANCE certainly does matter in relation to draft etc.

A great deal of the popularity of QM2 is marketing based...

CUNARD / CARNIVORE relies on nostalgia  like advertising while maximizing profit. Economies of scale helps ensure greater profit but also  prohibits PANAMA CANAL transits on QM2(QE2 only did one a year on her world cruises).

As far as the interior, QM2 is more Disneyesque than cutting edge( again for cost reasons as opposed making a great statement in design & culture).

Finally I've sailed on QE2, FRANCE  & QM2( along w ROTTERDAM V)  on similar Transatlantic & Carribean routes out of NYC, FLORIDA & EUROPE,

and  anyone that has travelled on QE2 knows the difference in how the ship handles the ocean... in this case BIGGER IS NOT NECESSARILY  BETTER🚢🚢🚢

 

 

Let's stop circling the drain here: it seems that you don't enjoy QM2 because you believe there's a major authenticity issue and/or because she isn't QE2.

 

On the list of things that don't define an Ocean Liner:

• Whether or not it can traverse the Panama Canal (QM, QE, Normandie, and France couldn't have done so).
• "Cutting Edge" interior design (one would hardly accuse Aquitania or Olympic of having had cutting edge interiors; they were all lifted from land-based styles hundreds of years old, e.g. William and Mary (172x), Jacobean (162x), and Style Louis XIV (171x).)
• A representation of arts and culture (have you seen some of the vintage menus and spreads from a 1950s Getting There is Half the Fun-era brochure? If aspic and jello salad are high points of arts and culture, I don't care to return, thanks.)
• Speed, size, or draft (already discussed ad nauseam above).

If you want to argue that QM2 is not an ocean liner because it doesn't provide the same feeling as you'd find on one of the ships of old, that's fine. But let's not try to parameterize it in any way that feigns objectivity -- those arguments just don't make sense.

Edited December 7, 2020 by jzopp

[Rotterdam]

6 hours ago, jzopp said:

 

Let's stop circling the drain here: it seems that you don't enjoy QM2 because you believe there's a major authenticity issue and/or because she isn't QE2.

 

On the list of things that don't define an Ocean Liner:

• Whether or not it can traverse the Panama Canal (QM, QE, Normandie, and France couldn't have done so).
• "Cutting Edge" interior design (one would hardly accuse Aquitania or Olympic of having had cutting edge interiors; they were all lifted from land-based styles hundreds of years old, e.g. William and Mary (172x), Jacobean (162x), and Style Louis XIV (171x).)
• A representation of arts and culture (have you seen some of the vintage menus and spreads from a 1950s Getting There is Half the Fun-era brochure? If aspic and jello salad are high points of arts and culture, I don't care to return, thanks.)
• Speed, size, or draft (already discussed ad nauseam above).

If you want to argue that QM2 is not an ocean liner because it doesn't provide the same feeling as you'd find on one of the ships of old, that's fine. But let's not try to parameterize it in any way that feigns objectivity -- those arguments just don't make sense.

Let's deal w the facts...any qualified NAVAL ARCHITECT would agree QM2 was built as a dual purpose ship...not as a pure oceanliner.

As far as decor, menus etc...that has more to do w the times & tastes the ship sails.  Do I want to go back in time..no.  but to deny the fact the QE2, FRANCE etc  were thoroughbred OCEAN LINERS is ignorance.

The QM2 is more akin to DISNEY WORLD, much like the rest of Carnival Corp ships... and slightly nightmarish to say the least.

AND BTW I did enjoy my cruises on QM2...I dont have irrational expectations. But she in no shape or style  could perform at sea like the previously mentioned ships of state. 

Change is inevitable...whether one buys into it is their choice.🚢