Key West?

[KirkNC]

9 minutes ago, cl.klink said:

Given, as quoted, that cruise passengers only add 7% to the local tourist economy (93% from non-cruise passengers), it would seem that from a FL point of view that the cost of permitting cruises may not outweigh the benefit.  

 

What do you think?

 

- Joel

I agree.

[nocl]

On 1/7/2021 at 6:38 PM, Aquahound said:

That’s interesting about the state. I don’t see that objection working. The state does not control those docks. The Captain of the Port is federal (USCG) and the docks are owned by the city, the Navy, and Margaritaville Resort. It’s beyond me how the state has standing in this matter. 

Isn't the one you say is owned by Margaritaville resort pier B?  It is my understanding that that one is leased by Pier B development Corp from the State.  They have filed a law suite concerning their ability to continue to receive ships.

[Aquahound]

Just now, nocl said:

Isn't the one you say is owned by Margaritaville resort pier B?  It is my understanding that that one is leased by Pier B development Corp from the State.  They have filed a law suite concerning their ability to continue to receive ships.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure about that.  It was always my understanding that Pier B was owned by the Westin Resort, and it was included in the sale to Margaritaville.  It could be that I just wasn't aware of a state lease.  I moved out of KW 4 years ago, so maybe something has changed since I left.  

[Mary229]

I am sure if one would delve deeply into the facts that there are business entities in Key West and the surrounding region which are lobbying the state legislature for this change.  

[YXU AC*SE]

I expect it mightn't just be business entities ...    2700$ per household is a not-unnoticeable tax adjustment.    Scott.

 

 

source: https://cruising.org/-/media/clia---visitor-spending-analysis---key-west

[Hlitner]

I am not sure why folks continue to post statistics that favor the economics of cruise ships.  The bottom line is that the voters of Key West were aware of both negative and positive consequences related to cruise ships (there was a lot of local discussion and publicity prior to the Nov 3 election) and yet a large majority (over 80% for one of the 3 referendums and over 60% for the other two) of local citizens made it clear they do not want large ships or too many cruise passengers.

 

As we have pointed out in other posts the negative feelings towards cruise ships (and to some degree cruise passengers) are not unique to Key West.  There have been opposition movements to cruise ships (especially large ships) in many places around the world.  I have no idea what cruise lines can do to reverse this negative point of view which does seem to increasing in both scale and frequency.    If the Florida legislature overturns the sentiments of local voters it will not do much to solidify positive views of the cruise industry.   I do not think folks in Monroe County appreciate the State Legislature dictating policies that impact on their locality.   There are some parallels to what happened in Venice, Italy when the courts (and some politicians) resisted the movement to ban large ships.  It finally got to a point where locals were forming boat blockades to keep out the big ships.   The resistance movement got a lot of publicity (in Europe) and has encouraged other cruise resistance movements just like the Key West referendums has given some encouragement to some groups in Alaska who also want cruise ship restrictions.

 

Hank

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

I am not sure why folks continue to post statistics that favor the economics of cruise ships.  The bottom line is that the voters of Key West were aware of both negative and positive consequences related to cruise ships (there was a lot of local discussion and publicity prior to the Nov 3 election) and yet a large majority (over 80% for one of the 3 referendums and over 60% for the other two) of local citizens made it clear they do not want large ships or too many cruise passengers.

 

That is a fact people need to swallow.  I am from KW so I know the sentiment quite well.  As I said on another thread, there is a lot more backstory to this vote that goes back several years....like greedy bar owners pushing hard for dredging and even larger ships.  80% is a convincing number in a polarizing time when votes rarely get above 51%.  I might be biased because it's my hometown, but we as cruisers need to respect their wishes.  If you want to visit, spend a couple days pre or post cruise in the Keys.  

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Aquahound said:

 

That is a fact people need to swallow.  I am from KW so I know the sentiment quite well.  As I said on another thread, there is a lot more backstory to this vote that goes back several years....like greedy bar owners pushing hard for dredging and even larger ships.  80% is a convincing number in a polarizing time when votes rarely get above 51%.  I might be biased because it's my hometown, but we as cruisers need to respect their wishes.  If you want to visit, spend a couple days pre or post cruise in the Keys.  

And let's not forget that the votes were not to ban all cruise ships, only those above a certain number of passengers. The industry is moving towards larger and larger ships. Many more ports are going to find these ships as overwhelming.

 

And as you said 80% is a huge majority in the Key West vote.

[KirkNC]

2 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

That is a fact people need to swallow.  I am from KW so I know the sentiment quite well.  As I said on another thread, there is a lot more backstory to this vote that goes back several years....like greedy bar owners pushing hard for dredging and even larger ships.  80% is a convincing number in a polarizing time when votes rarely get above 51%.  I might be biased because it's my hometown, but we as cruisers need to respect their wishes.  If you want to visit, spend a couple days pre or post cruise in the Keys.  

The vote was actually 63% to ban larger ships.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/11/05/key-west-florida-voters-opt-ban-large-cruise-ships-visiting/6171877002/

 

 

[rkacruiser]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 I do not think folks in Monroe County appreciate the State Legislature dictating policies that impact on their locality. 

 

Local control is an issue in many communities, not such for Key West.  Based on our experiences in Montgomery County, Ohio/Dayton, Ohio:  the view from their august position in Columbus by the members of the Ohio General Assembly often differ from the views of "We, the People" locally.  

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, KirkNC said:

The vote was actually 63% to ban larger ships.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/11/05/key-west-florida-voters-opt-ban-large-cruise-ships-visiting/6171877002/

 

 

63% is still a large majority. No recount necessary.😉

[NapTown Jim]

This has been a good discussion.  My last cruise that was cancelled was the "Tropical Caribbean".  A big reason I didn't re-book it for the fall (apart from COVID uncertainty) was that Key West was an appealing stop for us.  I expected it to be removed and I didn't want to re-book it until I saw what HAL replaced it with. 

 

I certainly hope they still go but I can see the side of the residents who don't want their small island overrun with tourists during the day.  These cruise ships are getting obscenely big.

[ew101]

I got a pop up ad from HAL this morning for a Key West cruise in 2021.  The Lanham Act of 1946/1947 prohibits false advertising.  This is getting tiring - asking people to book cruises which cannot be run. 

 

 D180A 14-DAY TROPICAL / EASTERN CARIBBEAN (hollandamerica.com)

[Mary229]

4 minutes ago, ew101 said:

I got a pop up ad from HAL this morning for a Key West cruise in 2021.  The Lanham Act of 1946/1947 prohibits false advertising.  This is getting tiring - asking people to book cruises which cannot be run. 

 

 D180A 14-DAY TROPICAL / EASTERN CARIBBEAN (hollandamerica.com)

There is a strong likelihood that the ban will be overturned.  

[ontheweb]

18 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

There is a strong likelihood that the ban will be overturned.  

But that is not a sure thing. Also in the post you quoted it refers to a 14 day cruise. That too is not happening even if the Key West ban is overturned as the CDC is not allowing cruises over 7 days.

[Lido - Lanai]

3 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

But that is not a sure thing. Also in the post you quoted it refers to a 14 day cruise. That too is not happening even if the Key West ban is overturned as the CDC is not allowing cruises over 7 days.

It departs Dec 15th so currently it's permitted. The current CDC rules may very well be changed. 

[ew101]

24 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

There is a strong likelihood that the ban will be overturned.  

There is a proposed bill: Florida legislature may overrule Key West cruise ship ban | The Capitolist

 

What about the 2021 HAL Alaska/Yukon brochure that just arrived in my mail?  

[ontheweb]

3 minutes ago, Lido - Lanai said:

It departs Dec 15th so currently it's permitted. The current CDC rules may very well be changed. 

It might be overturned. It might be changed. Does anything in the advertising say that it might not be a go as it might not be overturned and/or it might not be changed?

[ontheweb]

4 minutes ago, ew101 said:

There is a proposed bill: Florida legislature may overrule Key West cruise ship ban | The Capitolist

 

What about the 2021 HAL Alaska/Yukon brochure that just arrived in my mail?  

And Canada might change their ban. But don't hold your breath. Of course it is false advertising!

[Lido - Lanai]

3 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

It might be overturned. It might be changed. Does anything in the advertising say that it might not be a go as it might not be overturned and/or it might not be changed?

It was you that posted "the CDC is not allowing cruises over 7 days". I was simply stating there are currently no CDC restrictions on cruises departing on 12/15/2021. Chill..... 

[mamaofami]

Key West was a stop for our cruise to Cuba a few years ago. I loved the city, but we couldn’t get into the Hemingway house because the line was so long. 
It’s really a lovely place to visit, but I can understand the locals not wanting several 3,000 or more passenger ships in port at once. Today’s ships are getting bigger and bigger and Key West isn’t a big city.

[cruisemom42]

45 minutes ago, ew101 said:

There is a proposed bill: Florida legislature may overrule Key West cruise ship ban | The Capitolist

 

What about the 2021 HAL Alaska/Yukon brochure that just arrived in my mail?  

 

Considering that Canada only announced their policy on Thursday, I'm sure that was already in the mail at the time and shouldn't be considered false advertising. At least not in the sense of it being impossible due to Canadian ports/waters being off-limits.

 

Now whether the ship would've actually gone is up to debate...

[BobbiSox]

1 hour ago, ew101 said:

I got a pop up ad from HAL this morning for a Key West cruise in 2021.  The Lanham Act of 1946/1947 prohibits false advertising.  This is getting tiring - asking people to book cruises which cannot be run. 

 

 D180A 14-DAY TROPICAL / EASTERN CARIBBEAN (hollandamerica.com)

I had stated something similar recently and was harshly criticized for suggesting that HAL could be guilty of any wrongdoing. Why they are selling cruises at this time is not really a mystery, is it? 

[ew101]

If I was giving business strategy advice to HAL I would be suggesting any direct mail be composed only of cheerful articles on ships and classes of the fleet, interviews with officers or scone recipes, not prices and dates for specific close in voyages in large ships to Key West.   The intent of Congress back in 1946 was to cut back on falsehoods and hope.  

[NapTown Jim]

On 2/7/2021 at 8:05 AM, Mary229 said:

There is a strong likelihood that the ban will be overturned.  

 

I certainly hope so!  I'd love to re-book the Tropical Caribbean cruise that got cancelled but I won't until I know for sure the Key West stop is going to happen.