Will you cruise if vaccination is mandatory in order to board?

[Toofarfromthesea]

19 hours ago, clo said:

Color me confused. If you're against vaccinations, doesn't that make you an "anti-vaxxer"? How is that name calling?

 

Also what the big deal about waiting til 2022 to travel? To me it seems rather juvenile to (figuratively) stamp ones feet and whine. There are countless thing more important than taking a vacation. We've made it a year; we can make it another year.

 

If in general you get some vaccines but choose to wait in other cases, being labelled as an anti-vaxxers by self righteous people is just name-calling.  Are we to suppose that anyone who doesn;'t get every available vaccine an anti-vaxxers?

[Toofarfromthesea]

19 hours ago, wowzz said:

Colour (note the spelling!) me confused as well. Nothing to do with name calling. You are either pro or anti  - in the same way as you cannot be a little bit pregnant!

 

So if you have gotten many other vaccines but choose to wait on this one are you pro-vaccine because of the ones you've gotten or are you anti-vaccine because you decide to wait on one?

[Toofarfromthesea]

18 hours ago, wowzz said:

Sorry, that's just semantics.  If you cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons , then of course you are not an anti-vaxxer.

But, if you take a deliberate decision not to have a vaccine, even if you think you might change your mind in 5 years time, then of course you are an anti- vaxxer. How can you be anything else? 

 

 

An anti-vaxxer is someone who tries to convince other people not to get vaccines.  Not a person who decides to wait or even not get one specific vaccine for whatever reason.  Maybe there are medical reasons.  Maybe it is the speed and novelty of it's development and the short time-frames that the studies were done.  Maybe it is distrust of a vaccine developed under a particular administration, as Madame Vice President was going on about prior to the election.

[Charles4515]

14 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

If in general you get some vaccines but choose to wait in other cases, being labelled as an anti-vaxxers by self righteous people is just name-calling.  Are we to suppose that anyone who doesn;'t get every available vaccine an anti-vaxxers?

 

There seem to be two ways to look at it. Back and white or nuanced. I know some who were hesitant because of the speed the vaccine was developed but got over that hesitation rather fast. I would not call them anti vax although I suppose temporarily  they were. Then there are those who say they will never get one of the vaccines. Who spread misinformation and lies about the vaccines to convince people not to get vaccinated. The latter I believe are anti vaxxers. 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Charles4515

[Toofarfromthesea]

6 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Double talk- 

 

If there is no such thing as a false dichotomy,  why did you attempt to identify a statement as a false dichotomy.

 

No, he is pointing out the difference between a dichotomy, e.g., either Federer or Nadal will win a tennis match between them, and a FALSE dichotomy, e.g., either Federer or Nadal will win Wimbledon in 2021.  If there are more than 2 possibilities it is not a dichotomy, and if someone tries to claim it is, then they are stating a false dichotomy.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Toofarfromthesea

[Toofarfromthesea]

4 hours ago, wowzz said:

Perhaps you can show me where I have indulged in "name calling" ?

 

Perhaps you think calling people nincompoops is not name calling?

[Toofarfromthesea]

34 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

There seem to be two ways to look at it. Back and white or nuanced. I know some who were hesitant because of the speed the vaccine was developed but got over that hesitation rather fast. I would not call them anti vax although I suppose temporarily  they were. Then there are those who say they will never get one of the vaccines. Who spread misinformation and lies about the vaccines to convince people not to get vaccinated. The latter I believe are anti vaxxers. 

 

Exactly why those espousing a black and white take are presenting a FALSE dichotomy.  But nuance is hard, it takes much more thought than just doing what you are told.

[Joebucks]

On 2/19/2021 at 12:21 PM, Hlitner said:

Yes, and so can the statistics on the number of dead (now over 2 million) and millions of morbidity issues which are generally undercounted.   As to "waiting" to get vaccinated you might consider that the longer you wait the greater the odds that you will contract COVID.

 

Hank

 

At best, this is stating the case for wanting to have a safe and effective vaccine and rollout. It does not correlate into proof that the vaccines we have today are the exact right answer for public health. Your statement is borderline scare tactics. 

 

21 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Identifying someone who assumes an anti-vaxxing stance as an anit-vaxxer is simply a matter of identifying his stance, it is not "name-calling".    Would you prefer a paragraph to the appropriate one word term?  

 

Can we all close our eyes and think of what thoughts come to mind when we hear "anti-vaxxer?" Yup, it's absolutely name-calling. It's a label that the political hive-mind has conditioned you into using. No amount of walking it back is going to change that.

 

On 2/19/2021 at 10:51 AM, wowzz said:

You do seem to have trouble grasping the difference between medicine and vaccine!

 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

 

Don't just take it from me. As a person of science and fact, you should take it from the words of the CDC with the following line in almost every vaccine listed here.

 

As with any medicine, there is a very remote chance of a vaccine causing a severe allergic reaction, other serious injury, or death.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Joebucks

[Hlitner]

3 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

 

 

As with any medicine, there is a very remote chance of a vaccine causing a severe allergic reaction, other serious injury, or death.

I believe there has been about 50 million doses of COVID vaccines given just in the USA.  The number of confirmed deaths from the vaccine reactions is zero!  The last time I looked at some national data bases there were fewer then 100 severe reactions....and none of those folks died.   One web site (with an agenda) reports that 55 have died "after receiving COVID vaccinations" but a look at their data shows things like a 92 yr old man dying more then 2 weeks after he got the vaccination and that was because he had a "DNR" order.   There was no reason to think that the man's death had anything to do with the vaccine.  And that was typical of the claims that some use to trash vaccines.   Meanwhile the total deaths from COVID (just in the USA) are over 500,000!  

 

And yes, there is always the possibility of an anaphylactic reaction  from any shot (even saline).   For those trained to administer vaccinations that is normally relatively easy to treat.   It would be very rare for somebody to die from such an episode and so far that has been substantiated by the real numbers.

 

Hank 

[wowzz]

4 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

So if you have gotten many other vaccines but choose to wait on this one are you pro-vaccine because of the ones you've gotten or are you anti-vaccine because you decide to wait on one?

I got my vaccine this week! I am totally pro vaccine,  purely based on the science.

[wowzz]

4 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Perhaps you think calling people nincompoops is not name calling?

If you think "nincompoopery " is name calling, you have lead a very sheltered existence! 

[wowzz]

28 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I believe there has been about 50 million doses of COVID vaccines given just in the USA.  The number of confirmed deaths from the vaccine reactions is zero!  The last time I looked at some national data bases there were fewer then 100 severe reactions....and none of those folks died.   One web site (with an agenda) reports that 55 have died "after receiving COVID vaccinations" but a look at their data shows things like a 92 yr old man dying more then 2 weeks after he got the vaccination and that was because he had a "DNR" order.   There was no reason to think that the man's death had anything to do with the vaccine.  And that was typical of the claims that some use to trash vaccines.   Meanwhile the total deaths from COVID (just in the USA) are over 500,000!  

 

And yes, there is always the possibility of an anaphylactic reaction  from any shot (even saline).   For those trained to administer vaccinations that is normally relatively easy to treat.   It would be very rare for somebody to die from such an episode and so far that has been substantiated by the real numbers.

 

Hank 

Hank - sometimes, however much you give out  the facts, people will still have their own perceptions.

To not be vaccinated against a disease that has killed hundreds of thousands of people, because of a spurious account of someone dying after an injection, is unbelievable.   

 

[clo]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

And yes, there is always the possibility of an anaphylactic reaction  from any shot (even saline). 

When you were in the biz, did you know of the PDR - the Physicians Desk Reference, an enormous tome that had every drug imaginable in it. IIRC (and it's been a long time) in the list of side effects was the single word "death." 

[navybankerteacher]

6 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

An anti-vaxxer is someone who tries to convince other people not to get vaccines.  Not a person who decides to wait or even not get one specific vaccine for whatever reason.  Maybe there are medical reasons.  Maybe it is the speed and novelty of it's development and the short time-frames that the studies were done.  Maybe it is distrust of a vaccine developed under a particular administration, as Madame Vice President was going on about prior to the election.

I agree, an anti-vaxxer can be defined as one "...who tries to convince other people not to get vaccines."

 

Don't you realize that your citing "...medical reasons...", "...the speed and novelty of it's (sic) development...", "...the short times that the studies were done...",  and "...distrust of a vaccine developed under a particular administration..." constitute presenting an argument obviously designed                     "... to convince other people...".  You are, by your own tight definition, an anti-vaxxer.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

If you think "nincompoopery " is name calling, you have lead a very sheltered existence! 

These anti-vaxxers have very thin skins.

[broberts]

nin·com·poop

/ˈniNGkəmˌpo͞op/

 

noun

 

a foolish or stupid person.

synonyms: idiot, fool, halfwit, dunce, dolt, ignoramus, cretin, imbecile, dullard, moron, simpleton, clod, dope, ninny, chump, dimwit, nitwit, goon, dumbo, dum-dum, dummy, dumbbell, loon, *****, bonehead, fathead, numbskull, blockhead, dunderhead, chucklehead, knucklehead, muttonhead, pudding-head, thickhead, wooden-head, airhead, pinhead, lamebrain, peabrain, birdbrain, zombie, jerk, nerd, dipstick, donkey, noodle, nit, twit, numpty, clot, ass, plonker, berk, prat, pillock, wally, git, wazzock, divvy, nerk, twerp, twonk, charlie, mug, muppet, nyaff, balloon, sumph, gowk, gobdaw, schmuck, bozo, boob, lamer, turkey, schlepper, chowderhead, dumbhead, dumbass, goofball, goof, goofus, galoot, dork, lummox, klutz, putz, schlemiel, sap, gink, cluck, clunk, ding-dong, dingbat, wiener, weeny, dip, simp, spud, coot, palooka, poop, squarehead, yo-yo, dingleberry, wing nut, drongo, dill, alec, galah, nong, bogan, poon, boofhead, mompara, tomfool, noddy, clodpole, loggerhead, spoony, mooncalf, knobhead, asshat

 

[Hlitner]

51 minutes ago, clo said:

When you were in the biz, did you know of the PDR - the Physicians Desk Reference, an enormous tome that had every drug imaginable in it. IIRC (and it's been a long time) in the list of side effects was the single word "death." 

I always had the latest PDR edition on my desk.  Funny story.  Back in the mid-80s I took my then gf on her first cruise.  She was very concerned about getting seasick and wanted me to get her a script for Transderm Scop (the patch).  At the time I was on the staff of the Secretary of Health of Pennsylvania and pretty friendly with the man (who was a board certified traumatologist.  I called his secretary and asked her if the "boss" could write me a script for Transdermscop.   A few minutes later she called me and said that he wanted to see me in his office.   When I entered he had a group of folks around his conference table including a couple of State Senators and a few other people who were sitting quietly with smiles on their face.  The Secretary had a PDR opened in front of him and started to read all the side effects of the Patch including "death."  He then asked if I was sure I wanted the script (there was a lot of laughter).  And yes, we go the script...hated the patch (because of some of the minor side effects).

 

By the time I retired (15 years ago) the PDR still existed but most used the Internet to look up drugs.

 

Hank

[dreamercruise]

Definitely, I would cruise if vaccine is mandatory.  I feel safer if I know all people onboard have received Cov-19 vaccination.   On the contrary, if there is no vaccination requirement for boarding, I would feel uncomfortable thinking that I might be exposed to the virus while on board, as I may be the unlucky few who cannot have protection from the vaccine.

If I do not receive vaccine in time or cannot take vaccine due to health problems, then it is just too bad for me, and I shall cancel my cruise reservation.

I think freedom is something I prefer to have, as long as I do not cause harm or inconvenience to other people.

[Essiesmom]

Got my second dose of Moderna today.  Sigh of relief.  EM

[clo]

24 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Funny story. 

That is a funny story. "Death" is one of those things that pops into my mind when conversations turn to the safety of any drug. I won't even recommend an aspirin to someone. Thanks for sharing.

[clo]

2 minutes ago, Essiesmom said:

Got my second dose of Moderna today.  Sigh of relief.  EM

We settled down when we realized that nothing changes. Still masking etc. And because our kids and the grands haven't been vaccinated we can't safely see them. But, yes, we will feel safer. Good health.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, broberts said:

nin·com·poop

/ˈniNGkəmˌpo͞op/

 

noun

 

a foolish or stupid person.

synonyms: idiot, fool, halfwit, dunce, dolt, ignoramus, cretin, imbecile, dullard, moron, simpleton, clod, dope, ninny, chump, dimwit, nitwit, goon, dumbo, dum-dum, dummy, dumbbell, loon, *****, bonehead, fathead, numbskull, blockhead, dunderhead, chucklehead, knucklehead, muttonhead, pudding-head, thickhead, wooden-head, airhead, pinhead, lamebrain, peabrain, birdbrain, zombie, jerk, nerd, dipstick, donkey, noodle, nit, twit, numpty, clot, ass, plonker, berk, prat, pillock, wally, git, wazzock, divvy, nerk, twerp, twonk, charlie, mug, muppet, nyaff, balloon, sumph, gowk, gobdaw, schmuck, bozo, boob, lamer, turkey, schlepper, chowderhead, dumbhead, dumbass, goofball, goof, goofus, galoot, dork, lummox, klutz, putz, schlemiel, sap, gink, cluck, clunk, ding-dong, dingbat, wiener, weeny, dip, simp, spud, coot, palooka, poop, squarehead, yo-yo, dingleberry, wing nut, drongo, dill, alec, galah, nong, bogan, poon, boofhead, mompara, tomfool, noddy, clodpole, loggerhead, spoony, mooncalf, knobhead, asshat

 

Yes - a number of related terms; some more, some less, applicable in discussing anti-vaxxers.

[navybankerteacher]

35 minutes ago, clo said:

We settled down when we realized that nothing changes. Still masking etc. And because our kids and the grands haven't been vaccinated we can't safely see them. But, yes, we will feel safer. Good health.

And continued masking is of course , now that you are immunized, directed more at protecting others from you than you from them —- but still an imperative to go masked.

[clo]

15 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

And continued masking is of course , now that you are immunized, directed more at protecting others from you than you from them —- but still an imperative to go masked.

Of course. Exactly.

[Joebucks]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I believe there has been about 50 million doses of COVID vaccines given just in the USA.  The number of confirmed deaths from the vaccine reactions is zero!  The last time I looked at some national data bases there were fewer then 100 severe reactions....and none of those folks died.   One web site (with an agenda) reports that 55 have died "after receiving COVID vaccinations" but a look at their data shows things like a 92 yr old man dying more then 2 weeks after he got the vaccination and that was because he had a "DNR" order.   There was no reason to think that the man's death had anything to do with the vaccine.  And that was typical of the claims that some use to trash vaccines.   Meanwhile the total deaths from COVID (just in the USA) are over 500,000!  

 

And yes, there is always the possibility of an anaphylactic reaction  from any shot (even saline).   For those trained to administer vaccinations that is normally relatively easy to treat.   It would be very rare for somebody to die from such an episode and so far that has been substantiated by the real numbers.

 

Hank 

 

Am I the only one who notices a double-standard in explaining every death around the time of vaccination with arguments such as "he was old and sick!" Yet when someone dies "with" COVID, that is their cause of death and the "he was old and sick" argument only means healthy people killed him? Where's my recount of all of the old, sick, nursing home deaths? 

 

Anywho, here's some more science.

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/u-s-will-reach-herd-immunity-for-covid-19-by-april-johns-hopkins-doctor-says

 

“[W]e’re not at the place where we believe that the current level of vaccination is what is driving down the current level of disease,” Wallensky said. “We believe that much of the surge of disease happened related to the holidays, related to travel. And so we believe that now we’re coming down from that. So I would articulate really loudly that if you’re relying on our current level of vaccination rather than the other mitigation efforts to get us to remain low, that we shouldn’t rest in that comfort.”

But Markary says many scientists are reluctant to publicly acknowledge his conclusions

 

To be fair, the professor this article was written around, is not advocating that we should stop vaccinating. However, he has indicated that the narrative being pushed is extreme. Very consistent with all of our one-size-fits-all and double-standard approaches. We can say "we don't have the data" with herd immunity, but have all of the data in the world around the vaccine. Even though we have been watching infections and immunity longer than we've had the vaccine.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Joebucks