CDC Conditional Sail Order Extended to Nov 1

[grandgeezer]

1 minute ago, dswallow said:

The major passenger cruise lines need to negotiate with the major cargo shipping lines and arrange for a port stoppage. Cargo container ships refuse to dock at US ports until the US allows the cruise lines to operate again

 

Kinda like a Labor Union strike works.

 

Might even be a good opportunity to force revisions of the Jones Act and PVSA as well. It's not like there's even a US marine shipping industry to function in its place.

Never happen. Worldwide, very few people care if the cruise ships ever sail again.

They have gotten very little sympathy or support over the last year, why would things change now?

[dswallow]

6 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

Never happen. Worldwide, very few people care if the cruise ships ever sail again.

They have gotten very little sympathy or support over the last year, why would things change now?

 

Well, might've been a possibility if there was a passenger cruise line owned by a maritime shipping company.

 

Anyway, I never said it'd be possible. But that's about the only way I think they could force the CDC at this point.

[pspercy]

52 minutes ago, dswallow said:

 

Well, might've been a possibility if there was a passenger cruise line owned by a maritime shipping company.

 

Anyway, I never said it'd be possible. But that's about the only way I think they could force the CDC at this point.

 

 Like MSC ?

[A&L_Ont]

18 hours ago, steveru621 said:

just like Omar in Canada has even less evidence for a February 2022 date.

Who is Omar?

 

That date is when Canada will have everyone vaccinated a plan on what to do with  tourist and business travellers. (Sarcastic but possibly realistic font on)

[Cruise a holic]

We just cancelled our August cruise- we have decided to go to an all inclusive adult resort in cancun.  Hope we can sail in January!  Flying to Nassau or St. Maarten makes cruising too expensive now.

 

Enjoy for those who decide to sail.

[chengkp75]

6 hours ago, dswallow said:

The major passenger cruise lines need to negotiate with the major cargo shipping lines and arrange for a port stoppage. Cargo container ships refuse to dock at US ports until the US allows the cruise lines to operate again

 

Kinda like a Labor Union strike works.

 

Might even be a good opportunity to force revisions of the Jones Act and PVSA as well. It's not like there's even a US marine shipping industry to function in its place.

You do know that cruise ships represent less than 5% of total world tonnage, and are a small part of worldwide maritime trade? What incentive do the shipping companies have to cut their throats to help another company?  The only way this would relate to a union strike is if both the cruise lines and the shipping lines benefited from anything gained by the strike.  Any amount of money the cruise lines could offer the shipping lines, even if it were the cruise lines' entire profit, would be less than the lost revenue of shipping to/from the US.

 

You obviously don't understand the Jones Act or PVSA.  Cargo coming from overseas is not, nor ever was, subject to the Jones Act, so changing it would have no effect on foreign ships in foreign trade.  And, you are quite wrong.  There is a large Jones Act fleet, it is just not what you think.  Because the Jones Act and PVSA relate only to coastwise and inland trade, the fleets are small cargo ships, tankers, tugs, pushboats and barges, ferries, casino boats, commuter boats, whale watching and sightseeing boats, and charter fishing boats.  The Jones Act and PVSA support hundreds of thousands of US jobs (paying US income taxes) and pumps hundreds of millions of dollars into the US economy.

[fla gang]

43 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

You do know that cruise ships represent less than 5% of total world tonnage, and are a small part of worldwide maritime trade? What incentive do the shipping companies have to cut their throats to help another company?  The only way this would relate to a union strike is if both the cruise lines and the shipping lines benefited from anything gained by the strike.  Any amount of money the cruise lines could offer the shipping lines, even if it were the cruise lines' entire profit, would be less than the lost revenue of shipping to/from the US.

 

You obviously don't understand the Jones Act or PVSA.  Cargo coming from overseas is not, nor ever was, subject to the Jones Act, so changing it would have no effect on foreign ships in foreign trade.  And, you are quite wrong.  There is a large Jones Act fleet, it is just not what you think.  Because the Jones Act and PVSA relate only to coastwise and inland trade, the fleets are small cargo ships, tankers, tugs, pushboats and barges, ferries, casino boats, commuter boats, whale watching and sightseeing boats, and charter fishing boats.  The Jones Act and PVSA support hundreds of thousands of US jobs (paying US income taxes) and pumps hundreds of millions of dollars into the US economy.

I love ready your posts Chief! So when do you think cruises from the US will start back up?

[chengkp75]

7 minutes ago, fla gang said:

I love ready your posts Chief! So when do you think cruises from the US will start back up?

Asked this yesterday on another thread.  I feel with all the variables, and friction from both sides, that it is really too hard to tell, but I would not expect it before late fall.

[ArthurUSCG]

8 hours ago, easyqueasy said:

So the CDC is concerned with safety and health of people to shut down cruising in the US, but unless the US gets paid by cruising industry there’s no concern to them no matter what science proves? What are the CDC’s concerns? Pay before we hear your cause sounds political.

The CDC only has so much money and employees and has to budget them. If you want the CDC to work faster, then the budget should have been expanded. So, I suspect during the budget priority discussions with congress and WH, they were told to prioritize industries that are needed to keep the country running and then rank based on ROI to the tax payers. That sounds more business then political.

If the CLIA worked with the CDC to fund a scientific study (like most major USA based industries do) then we would be much further along in returning to cruising. The CDC already laid out the minimum they wanted to see, and so far the cruise lines refused to play ball. The sailing out of the Bahamas, won't accomplish anything that is needed to return to USA port sailing which is needed for the cruise lines to return to pre pandemic levels. Instead of the $150 each way non stop 2hr Southwest flight to FL, it's now $600 8+hr flight with a layover. And if something happened there are 5-8 same day flights to MCO or MIA, there are only 2 flights to NAS but it looks like they both use the same final leg. That eliminates the popular day of or day before flights. Especially for after debarkation.

[Sunshine3601]

9 hours ago, thewebbys said:

It is a response to CLIA letter sent to CDC to start cruising by July. The CDC response was said yesterday. So it is news. This is the first time we heard from the CDC since Feb.

 

A call from the cruise industry to end the conditional sail order by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention by July was met with opposition Wednesday, but the 74-point plan for ships to return to business may be getting changes.

A spokesperson for the CDC, Caitlin Shockey said in an emailed statement that the order will remain in place until Nov. 1, but that the order will shift from its current language.

Yes, this statement is newsworthy but was not known on wednesday when op started this thread, that's what I was responding to.

[Sunshine3601]

8 hours ago, dswallow said:

The major passenger cruise lines need to negotiate with the major cargo shipping lines and arrange for a port stoppage. Cargo container ships refuse to dock at US ports until the US allows the cruise lines to operate again

 

Kinda like a Labor Union strike works.

 

Might even be a good opportunity to force revisions of the Jones Act and PVSA as well. It's not like there's even a US marine shipping industry to function in its place.

That's very drastic and would never happen.  Imagine the impact would be devastating to many businesses and us citizens.  

[smokeybandit]

The cdc has more than enough employees to handle this, especially since the data they'd need to use would be data other areas of the cdc would use too.  Saying they don't have the resources is a cop out

[boscobeans]

12 hours ago, ArthurUSCG said:

What country does Carnival pay taxes to?

 

 

 

 

International agreement that no country charges taxes on shipping, one hand washes the other.

It’s a mutual policy that equally benefits U.S. corporations that are, in return, able to do business internationally without being taxed in those countries. 

 

Even though registered in other countries they do pay tax.

 In 2019, Carnival Corp. paid $71 million in taxes

In the same year, Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd. paid $25.5 million in taxes

and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings paid $18.9 million in taxes.

 

Now they also have to pay LOCAL or port fees and taxes.

Do YOU have any idea as to what ships pay just to tie up?

Harmony of the Seas pays the port of Miami over $81,000 for what ?  8-9 hours in port ?   Port Everglades hauls in almost  200 million in a slow year.  That's not including all the ancillary tax revenue brought in by employee salaries and massive sales taxes for goods and services at the ports, the nearby restaurants, hotels and airlines.    Further, cruise lines are subject to state income taxes, as well as various other taxes, such as a 33% tax on all gambling revenue generated while in Alaska waters.    Additionally, more than 420,000 U.S.-based employees or people associated with cruise industry pay federal and state income taxes.

[paulh84]

9 hours ago, dswallow said:

The major passenger cruise lines need to negotiate with the major cargo shipping lines and arrange for a port stoppage. Cargo container ships refuse to dock at US ports until the US allows the cruise lines to operate again

 

Yeah I'm pretty sure cargo carriers don't give a flying......about passenger cruises. 

 

Transporting goods for the entire world vs. crappy margaritas and eating fried calamari in the pool at 9am are not quite congruent activities. 

[chengkp75]

16 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

International agreement that no country charges taxes on shipping, one hand washes the other.

It’s a mutual policy that equally benefits U.S. corporations that are, in return, able to do business internationally without being taxed in those countries. 

Yes, that means that if a US flag ship earns revenue in Panama, they don't pay Panamanian tax either.  Which way do you think that balances?

 

17 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

Even though registered in other countries they do pay tax.

 In 2019, Carnival Corp. paid $71 million in taxes

In the same year, Royal Caribbean Cruises, Ltd. paid $25.5 million in taxes

and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings paid $18.9 million in taxes.

In CLIA's own economic impact reports, they state that the vast majority of taxes paid in the US are local real estate taxes on their buildings, and Social Security withholding for US employees.

 

18 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

Now they also have to pay LOCAL or port fees and taxes.

Do YOU have any idea as to what ships pay just to tie up?

Harmony of the Seas pays the port of Miami over $81,000 for what ?  8-9 hours in port ?

Are you saying this is a tax? No, it is a fee.  A payment for a service or good provided.  Is your mortgage or rent a tax?  That is what a dock fee is, dock rental.

 

25 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

Further, cruise lines are subject to state income taxes,

Which states?  I pretty much know that this statement from another source means they pay state income tax on their US employees. They even get their fuel tax free.

 

The overall tax rate that cruise lines pay to all local, state, and federal jurisdictions, combined, is 0.8%.

[Baron Barracuda]

Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg was just on CNBC.  Subject of cruise lines didn't come up.  Questions were about whether US would have  a plan developed by May 1st for how to safely re-open international air  travel.  He mostly deferred to CDC but made it clear that top priority of administration is winning the race between vaccinations and emerging variants.  It appears re-opening international travel of any sort will have to wait until the country is vaccinated..    

[boscobeans]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, that means that if a US flag ship earns revenue in Panama, they don't pay Panamanian tax either.  Which way do you think that balances?

 

In CLIA's own economic impact reports, they state that the vast majority of taxes paid in the US are local real estate taxes on their buildings, and Social Security withholding for US employees.

 

Are you saying this is a tax? No, it is a fee.  A payment for a service or good provided.  Is your mortgage or rent a tax?  That is what a dock fee is, dock rental.

Don't cruise lines also have to pay a per-passenger fee, known as a head tax.

 

Which states?  I pretty much know that this statement from another source means they pay state income tax on their US employees. They even get their fuel tax free.

 

When in ports like NY-NJ-TX or others do the ships have to collect sales tax on the drinks sold?

 

The overall tax rate that cruise lines pay to all local, state, and federal jurisdictions, combined, is 0.8%.

The point is the cruise industry does pour millions if not billions into the economy of the Unites States.

Argue what is the difference between what is a tax or what is a fee all you want, the industry and all it involves is a cash cow for tens of thousands of workers and many States.

 

Everyone from the printer that does the sales flyers for the local cruise travel agent or agency in your town to the guy working at the dock who unloads your luggage and throws it on a cart when you get to the port enjoy the benefits as well as the tax man who is right behind each or them with his hand in their pocket.

 

BUT every time someone says THE CRUISE LINES PAY NO TAXES or

 "... primarily an industry that funnels money to outside of the USA."  it is only a small part of the truth. 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by boscobeans

[sandebeach]

From Florida Governor's Press Conference today at Port Canaveral: 

For Immediate Release: March 26, 2021

 

Contact: Governor’s Press Office, (850) 717-9282, Media@eog.myflorida.com

 

Governor Ron DeSantis Highlights Florida’s Vital Cruise Industry, Calls on CDC to Rescind 
No-Sail Order

Governor Also Recommends Over $250 Million to Rebuild Industry
 

 

Port Canaveral, Fla. – Today, Governor Ron DeSantis, Attorney General Ashley Moody and Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) Secretary Kevin J. Thibault, P.E. held a roundtable discussion with cruise industry executives and employees to highlight the importance of this critical industry to Florida’s economy. 

At the roundtable, Governor DeSantis called on the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to rescind its no-sail order which the CDC has indicated will remain in place until November 1, 2021. The federal government has provided guidance to all other passenger transportation modes and other industries; however, it has failed to issue guidance for the cruise industry to assist in its recovery.

In addition to the lack of guidance, the federal government has neglected to provide relief funding to seaports while airports and transit agencies have received assistance through previous relief packages. Earlier this month, Governor DeSantis recommended Florida’s seaports receive $258.2 million out of the state’s share of the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021, to account for the losses accrued due to the no-sail order.

“If there is one thing we’ve learned over the past year, it’s that lockdowns don’t work, and Floridians deserve the right to earn a living,” said Governor DeSantis. “The cruise industry is essential to our state’s economy and keeping it shut down until November would be devastating to the men and women who rely on the cruise lines to provide for themselves and their families. I urge the CDC to immediately rescind this baseless no-sail order to allow Floridians in this industry to get back to work."

“It’s anchors aweigh for almost every travel industry in the U.S., yet the Biden administration is keeping our cruise liners docked—while many other major countries begin to operate cruises safely under health guidelines. The rationale for keeping U.S. cruises shuttered through the foreseeable future is based on outdated data and guidelines put in place before we had a COVID-19 vaccine," said Attorney General Ashley Moody. “The federal government is acting outside its authority in singling out and docking the cruise industry while other tourism-based businesses continue to operate in accordance with health guidelines. This heavy-handed federal overreach is harming our nation’s economy and is especially damaging to Florida’s economy and our vital tourism industry. That is why, we are calling on the Biden administration to lift the outdated lockdown order on Florida’s cruise industry and allow workers who rely on this important industry to get back to work.”

“Under Governor DeSantis’ leadership, the state continues to make key investments in our transportation system, but, because of the CDC’s no-sail order, the cruise industry is still struggling,” said FDOT Secretary Kevin J. Thibault, P.E. “The Governor and the state continue to do all that we can to help these members of our communities regain their livelihoods and we hope our federal counterparts follow suit.”

On March 14, the nation marked its one-year anniversary of the CDC’s no-sail order. A September 2020 report from the Federal Maritime Commission estimated that during the first 6 months of the pandemic, losses in Florida due to the cruise industry shutdown totalled $3.2 billion in economic activity, including 49,500 jobs paying $2.3 billion in wages. In addition, Florida saw wide-ranging indirect impacts throughout the state – from airports and ground transportation to hotels, restaurants, and tourist destinations. 

The COVID-19 pandemic’s effects on the cruise industry are part of a larger struggle facing the entire travel industry, which ended 2020 with $1.1 trillion in losses, a 42 percent drop from 2019.
 

[chengkp75]

53 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

BUT every time someone says THE CRUISE LINES PAY NO TAXES or

 "... primarily an industry that funnels money to outside of the USA."  it is only a small part of the truth. 

And, I've taken a closer look at CLIA's figures for economic impact in the US.  They claim to have $24 billion in direct spending in the US (salaries of US employees, goods and services, taxes).  Yet the passenger boardings for US cruises tops out at 13.8 million, so they claim to spend $1700 per passenger in the US directly.  How many cruises from the US are $1700/person?  Any profit there? Also, total revenue, worldwide, for the industry is $38 billion, so if they are spending $24 billion of that in the US, and were making money prior to the pandemic, they must not be spending much in any other country. Some claims don't pass the smell test.

[Milwaukee Eight]

31 minutes ago, sandebeach said:

From Florida Governor's Press Conference today at Port Canaveral: 

For Immediate Release: March 26, 2021

 

Contact: Governor’s Press Office, (850) 717-9282, Media@eog.myflorida.com

 

Governor Ron DeSantis Highlights Florida’s Vital Cruise Industry, Calls on CDC to Rescind 
No-Sail Order

Governor Also Recommends Over $250 Million to Rebuild Industry
 

 

Port Canaveral, Fla. – Today, Governor Ron DeSantis, Attorney General Ashley Moody and Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) Secretary Kevin J. Thibault, P.E. held a roundtable discussion with cruise industry executives and employees to highlight the importance of this critical industry to Florida’s economy. 

At the roundtable, Governor DeSantis called on the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to rescind its no-sail order which the CDC has indicated will remain in place until November 1, 2021. The federal government has provided guidance to all other passenger transportation modes and other industries; however, it has failed to issue guidance for the cruise industry to assist in its recovery.

In addition to the lack of guidance, the federal government has neglected to provide relief funding to seaports while airports and transit agencies have received assistance through previous relief packages. Earlier this month, Governor DeSantis recommended Florida’s seaports receive $258.2 million out of the state’s share of the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021, to account for the losses accrued due to the no-sail order.

“If there is one thing we’ve learned over the past year, it’s that lockdowns don’t work, and Floridians deserve the right to earn a living,” said Governor DeSantis. “The cruise industry is essential to our state’s economy and keeping it shut down until November would be devastating to the men and women who rely on the cruise lines to provide for themselves and their families. I urge the CDC to immediately rescind this baseless no-sail order to allow Floridians in this industry to get back to work."

“It’s anchors aweigh for almost every travel industry in the U.S., yet the Biden administration is keeping our cruise liners docked—while many other major countries begin to operate cruises safely under health guidelines. The rationale for keeping U.S. cruises shuttered through the foreseeable future is based on outdated data and guidelines put in place before we had a COVID-19 vaccine," said Attorney General Ashley Moody. “The federal government is acting outside its authority in singling out and docking the cruise industry while other tourism-based businesses continue to operate in accordance with health guidelines. This heavy-handed federal overreach is harming our nation’s economy and is especially damaging to Florida’s economy and our vital tourism industry. That is why, we are calling on the Biden administration to lift the outdated lockdown order on Florida’s cruise industry and allow workers who rely on this important industry to get back to work.”

“Under Governor DeSantis’ leadership, the state continues to make key investments in our transportation system, but, because of the CDC’s no-sail order, the cruise industry is still struggling,” said FDOT Secretary Kevin J. Thibault, P.E. “The Governor and the state continue to do all that we can to help these members of our communities regain their livelihoods and we hope our federal counterparts follow suit.”

On March 14, the nation marked its one-year anniversary of the CDC’s no-sail order. A September 2020 report from the Federal Maritime Commission estimated that during the first 6 months of the pandemic, losses in Florida due to the cruise industry shutdown totalled $3.2 billion in economic activity, including 49,500 jobs paying $2.3 billion in wages. In addition, Florida saw wide-ranging indirect impacts throughout the state – from airports and ground transportation to hotels, restaurants, and tourist destinations. 

The COVID-19 pandemic’s effects on the cruise industry are part of a larger struggle facing the entire travel industry, which ended 2020 with $1.1 trillion in losses, a 42 percent drop from 2019.
 

The Feds are not likely to do anything as our great Governor is making them look bad. 
 

M8

[molly361]

1 minute ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

The Feds are not likely to do anything as our great Governor is making them look bad. 
 

M8

I'm beginning to think you and he are related, is that true??  Asking for a friend

[sandebeach]

3 minutes ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

The Feds are not likely to do anything as our great Governor is making them look bad. 
 

M8

I am glad he has got this started, hope something good comes out of it. 

[Milwaukee Eight]

1 minute ago, molly361 said:

I'm beginning to think you and he are related, is that true??  Asking for a friend

No but met him when he was running for Governor and again the last Friday of Bikeweek. Nice guy  You don’t like him?  Better than the other guy that ran against him that got caught with his pants down to reveal his true colors. 
 

M8

[Baron Barracuda]

7 minutes ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

The Feds are not likely to do anything as our great Governor is making them look bad. 
 

M8

DeSantis coudn't talk his best buddy Donald into opening up cruising (didn't seem like he really tried) so why does he think Biden will listen to him?

[boscobeans]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

 

 

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, I've taken a closer look at CLIA's figures for economic impact in the US.  They claim to have $24 billion in direct spending in the US (salaries of US employees, goods and services, taxes).  Yet the passenger boardings for US cruises tops out at 13.8 million, so they claim to spend $1700 per passenger in the US directly.  How many cruises from the US are $1700/person?  Any profit there? Also, total revenue, worldwide, for the industry is $38 billion, so if they are spending $24 billion of that in the US, and were making money prior to the pandemic, they must not be spending much in any other country. Some claims don't pass the smell test.

. 

I guess we in the industry or those like me who have long ago retired and hung up our C.L.I.A. Memberships should ignore what my agency earned and paid out in salaries as well as State, Local and Federal income taxes as just a figment of my imagination.

 

After all cruising contributes nothing to our economy, tax base or employment and like with Every Noro event, no matter how small is blown out of proportion by the press or Every injury or death caused by a drunk or sheer criminal neglect is the cruise line's fault. ALWAYS bringing up the "FACT" that cruising funnels its money to other countries.

 

Goes a lot in ruining what little positive press cruising gets that's ever seen on the air waves or in print.

 

All I know is that the cruise industry generates a LOT from TAXES or FEES or any other name you want to use for money.

 

I am not a C.P.A. or a Forensic Accountant just someone who loves the industry and hates to see partial truths as the only thing most people ever see.