Venice bans cruise ships from historic centre

[sergel02]

9 hours ago, steamboats said:

 

It´s a very complicated topic... The lagoon is quite large so there is nothing "nearby" where you can build a port (in the middle of nowwhere???). Even with such a port you have to bus the pax to the airport and into Venice.... which isn´t really environmentally or economically reasonable either... 

 

Plan 1 was to use the industrial port of Marghera (they are currently building an interim terminal there) but that´s inside the lagoon and the channel going there is one way traffic only. Digging new channels to the Stazione Marittima from the Marghera entry is not approved by the environmentalists either.

 

Plan 2 is to build a new terminal outside of the lagoon sort of "offshore" with big passenger ferries (1,200 people) getting the cruise passengers to Venice and the airport. This is quite a plan as you have to get the luggage from and to the ships and provisions. And this "offshore" terminal won´t have any road connection to the main land.

 

BTW Venice wants the ships - meaning the community government.

 

steamboats

I did mean nearby like maybe an hour away at most. I know, for example, Civitavecchia is about an hour away from Rome. I will say though that many complain about how troublesome it is to get from Rome to the port and vice versa.

 

The first option seems to have similar issues from an environmental standpoint, and the second option that lacks land access seems very difficult. Definitely a complicated issue.

[steamboats]

While Rome is not at the sea Venice is directly at the sea and has a port. Civitavecchia is the sea port of Rome...

 

Nearby... there is a port nearby called Trieste which is about an hour away from Venice as well as Ravello which is app. 90 min from Venice. Both ports are used as turnover ports by MSC, Costa and RCI.

 

steamboats

[Host Jazzbeau]

2 hours ago, steamboats said:

While Rome is not at the sea Venice is directly at the sea and has a port. Civitavecchia is the sea port of Rome...

 

Nearby... there is a port nearby called Trieste which is about an hour away from Venice as well as Ravello which is app. 90 min from Venice. Both ports are used as turnover ports by MSC, Costa and RCI.

 

steamboats

Trieste is a 2 hour train ride to Venice, and almost 2 hours by car.  Ravello?–near Naples?–7 hour train ride.  Even Ravenna is 4 hours by train and 2 hours by car.  There are no good options.

[Langoustine]

36 minutes ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Trieste is a 2 hour train ride to Venice, and almost 2 hours by car.  Ravello?–near Naples?–7 hour train ride.  Even Ravenna is 4 hours by train and 2 hours by car.  There are no good options.

I think Steamboats meant Ravenna. But you are correct that there are no good options.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Langoustine

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Langoustine said:

I think Steamboats meant Ravenna. But you are correct that there are no good options.

 

And Ravenna is 3 hours by train, not 4. Still not great.

 

If the environmental group wants to protect the entirety of the Venice lagoon, the best bet may be building new port facilities around Chioggia which is just at the mouth of the lagoon. From Chioggia it is just under an hour driving time and just over an hour via ferry/water to Venice. Which would be about the same as going from Rome to Civitavecchia.

 

[Hlitner]

The Venice issue has been an ongoing saga for over 20 years.  DW and I have very mixed emotions since we really enjoy traveling in Italy (we have driven more then 10,000 miles within the country) and also cruising in the Med and Italy.  We see both sides of the argument about the Port of Venice but cannot help but find much wisdom in the arguments adopted by those that want to ban ships from Venice.  While we truly love cruising in and out of Venice it is easy to see the risk involved with allowing large ships to move down the Giudecca Canal.  

 

As to alternative ports for Venice, none of the current options are very good.  Having huge ships go to nearby mainland piers (which are not currently optimized for cruise ships) only creates another problem which is how to move thousands of passengers to and from Venice from mainland ports.  Keep in mind that there is only a single causeway that connects Venice to the mainland and having hundreds of bus runs back and forth will also be an unmitigated disaster.  Using small vaporetto-like boats to transfer cruisers would also strain the lagoon infrastructure.   Docking ships further away at ports like Trieste does not help since all the passengers would still need to get from the port to Venice.

 

And we have pointed out that Venice is only one port of several that have major issues.  The use of La Spezia as a cruise port seems almost criminal and has led to the fast deterioration of nearby Riomaggiore (from over crowding) and also over strained the resources of Cinque Terre.  IMHO the Italian officials that decided to open up La Spezia as a cruise port should be keel hauled!  When cruise ships had 1200 passengers use of most ports was fine.  But with many ships now carrying over 4000 passengers the negative impact on smaller ports is just awful!   Anyone who has waited for 2 hours to get the cable car down to the tender pier on Santorini can testify to attest to the absurdity of allowing 8000+ cruisers to invade Santorini on a single day.   So lets be very clear.  The Santorini cable car has an hourly capacity of about 600 persons (in each direction).  If 3000 cruisers need to get down to the tender port via the cable car it will take about 5 hours!  It is just simple math.  The authorities on Santorini have finally realized that the situation is untenable and have started to impose some restrictions.  

 

I have very mixed emotions.  DW and I love to cruise and have literally spent years (as passengers) on many cruise ships.  We also love to travel (independently) on land and routinely take extended driving trips in Europe.  It pains me to admit that the cruise industry is contributing to the ruin of many fantastic tourist oriented destinations.  Over tourism is a worldwide problem and the cruise industry is part of problem in many destinations.  It is obvious that the cruise industry is not going to do a darn thing to police itself so it is up to the individual governments to impose restrictions.

 

Hank

 

 

[steamboats]

Sorry, Ravenna of course...

 

But anyway there is no other place for a port nearby Venice and not in the lagoon.

 

steamboats

[sergel02]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

The Venice issue has been an ongoing saga for over 20 years.  DW and I have very mixed emotions since we really enjoy traveling in Italy (we have driven more then 10,000 miles within the country) and also cruising in the Med and Italy.  We see both sides of the argument about the Port of Venice but cannot help but find much wisdom in the arguments adopted by those that want to ban ships from Venice.  While we truly love cruising in and out of Venice it is easy to see the risk involved with allowing large ships to move down the Giudecca Canal.  

 

As to alternative ports for Venice, none of the current options are very good.  Having huge ships go to nearby mainland piers (which are not currently optimized for cruise ships) only creates another problem which is how to move thousands of passengers to and from Venice from mainland ports.  Keep in mind that there is only a single causeway that connects Venice to the mainland and having hundreds of bus runs back and forth will also be an unmitigated disaster.  Using small vaporetto-like boats to transfer cruisers would also strain the lagoon infrastructure.   Docking ships further away at ports like Trieste does not help since all the passengers would still need to get from the port to Venice.

 

And we have pointed out that Venice is only one port of several that have major issues.  The use of La Spezia as a cruise port seems almost criminal and has led to the fast deterioration of nearby Riomaggiore (from over crowding) and also over strained the resources of Cinque Terre.  IMHO the Italian officials that decided to open up La Spezia as a cruise port should be keel hauled!  When cruise ships had 1200 passengers use of most ports was fine.  But with many ships now carrying over 4000 passengers the negative impact on smaller ports is just awful!   Anyone who has waited for 2 hours to get the cable car down to the tender pier on Santorini can testify to attest to the absurdity of allowing 8000+ cruisers to invade Santorini on a single day.   So lets be very clear.  The Santorini cable car has an hourly capacity of about 600 persons (in each direction).  If 3000 cruisers need to get down to the tender port via the cable car it will take about 5 hours!  It is just simple math.  The authorities on Santorini have finally realized that the situation is untenable and have started to impose some restrictions.  

 

I have very mixed emotions.  DW and I love to cruise and have literally spent years (as passengers) on many cruise ships.  We also love to travel (independently) on land and routinely take extended driving trips in Europe.  It pains me to admit that the cruise industry is contributing to the ruin of many fantastic tourist oriented destinations.  Over tourism is a worldwide problem and the cruise industry is part of problem in many destinations.  It is obvious that the cruise industry is not going to do a darn thing to police itself so it is up to the individual governments to impose restrictions.

 

Hank

 

 

OMG this was me in 2016. Was in the NCL Jade and 2-3 other ships and the wait was over 2 hours to get down. Ended up having to climb down the steps which was grueling in the heat.

 

Im also conflicted as someone who loves to cruise and travel but also understands some of the impacts on the communities. Key West is another port that wants to restrict large ships. It would be great if cruise lines contributed more to their ports but law may be the only way to get a better experience for cruisers and residents. It just can be costly on passengers.

 

Again, if ships were a little tinier it would solve many issues IMO, though not all obviously.

Edited June 30, 2021 by sergel02

[Host Jazzbeau]

The solution for Venice, IMHO, is to create a new channel to the Marittima cruise port that avoids the Giudecca Canal, and then limit the number of cruise passengers per day.  That way all the existing infrastructure can be used without overwhelming the lagoon or killing Venice with overcrowding.

[sergel02]

1 hour ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

The solution for Venice, IMHO, is to create a new channel to the Marittima cruise port that avoids the Giudecca Canal, and then limit the number of cruise passengers per day.  That way all the existing infrastructure can be used without overwhelming the lagoon or killing Venice with overcrowding.

How far is that channel?

 

I think the limit would help, but it does paint another conundrum. Cruises need to keep sailing to be profitable, but more new ships are being made that typically hold more people, than ships, leaving service. The ships have to head somewhere. I wonder if some lines will opt to overnight in some ports.

[steamboats]

11 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

The solution for Venice, IMHO, is to create a new channel to the Marittima cruise port that avoids the Giudecca Canal, and then limit the number of cruise passengers per day.  That way all the existing infrastructure can be used without overwhelming the lagoon or killing Venice with overcrowding.

 

Cruise ships are not responsible for overcrowding in Venice. Cruise ship passengers are less than 10% of the total amount of tourists visiting Venice per year (prior to the pandemic of course).

 

Digging a new canal is not that easy as you at least need to use the canal going to Marghera and then dig a side canal (there are exisisting canals but not deep enough for cruise ships). The canal to Marghera can be only used one way (there are time slots going in and out). Plus digging a new canal effects the ecosystem of the lagoon. All ships in the lagoon effect the ecosystem.

 

steamboats

[sergel02]

8 hours ago, steamboats said:

 

Cruise ships are not responsible for overcrowding in Venice. Cruise ship passengers are less than 10% of the total amount of tourists visiting Venice per year (prior to the pandemic of course).

 

Digging a new canal is not that easy as you at least need to use the canal going to Marghera and then dig a side canal (there are exisisting canals but not deep enough for cruise ships). The canal to Marghera can be only used one way (there are time slots going in and out). Plus digging a new canal effects the ecosystem of the lagoon. All ships in the lagoon effect the ecosystem.

 

steamboats

Was it only 10%? That’s very different than other areas like Key West where it’s like 33% of their tourists.

 

[steamboats]

It´s been more like 6%, so less than 10%.

 

steamboats

[CruiserBruce]

2 hours ago, sergel02 said:

Was it only 10%? That’s very different than other areas like Key West where it’s like 33% of their tourists.

 

Different ports. No resemblance between KW and Venice tourist dynamics.

[sergel02]

2 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Different ports. No resemblance between KW and Venice tourist dynamics.

Oh yeah for sure, I was referencing that both are popular tourist destinations that want to limit the size of ships coming into their ports. However, while both have valid environmental concerns, with overcrowding though it’s different. In KW 33% of tourists coming from ships can hugely change dynamics of crowds there, whereas if Venice only gets 10%, will limiting ships have much of an effect on the crowd?

[madera1]

We are due to sail round trip from Venice in June 2022. I believe both the Seabourn Quest and Holland America Westerdam are under 90,000 Tons. I will wait about 6 months before booking hotel rooms. We plan to come early and stay the couple of nights between cruises in Venice.

[cruisemom42]

Looks like today Italy moves one step closer to upholding the ban on large cruise ships in Venice. Now a larger body has upheld the decree to ban ships larger than 25,000 tons from transiting up Giudecca canal and docking IN Venice.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-italy-legislate-keep-liners-out-venice-lagoon-sources-2021-07-13/

 

If it is really to be effective on August 1, one wonders what the (few) ships sailing out of Venice currently will do?

[mapleleaves]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

If it is really to be effective on August 1, one wonders what the (few) ships sailing out of Venice currently will do?

RCI is already sailing out of Ravenna.  Other cruiselines will find similar alternatives. 

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, mapleleaves said:

RCI is already sailing out of Ravenna.  Other cruiselines will find similar alternatives. 

 

As stated upthread, MSC has 3 ships apparently sailing out of Venice this summer -- I was more curious what they were going to do. Other cruiselines have some time to make decisions....

[steamboats]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

As stated upthread, MSC has 3 ships apparently sailing out of Venice this summer -- I was more curious what they were going to do. Other cruiselines have some time to make decisions....

 

It´s 2 MSC and 1 Costa.

 

Interesting in the German news they are saying that "sustainable" (environmental friendly) ships are allowed to sail into Venice despite the size limitations.

 

The Reuters article is a bit weird as there was a limitation to 96,000 GT for years now. And no 200.000 GT plus ship is able to sail into Venice as it´s simply too big.

 

steamboats

[ski ww]

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/italy-bans-cruise-liners-from-venice-after-years-of-hesitation

 

According to this article the limit is 25,000T. Not that it makes a difference, cruise ships are still not allowed into Venice.

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, ski ww said:

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/italy-bans-cruise-liners-from-venice-after-years-of-hesitation

 

According to this article the limit is 25,000T. Not that it makes a difference, cruise ships are still not allowed into Venice.

There are actually a few luxury cruise ships, such as 2 of the Silverseas vessels and the Sea Dream ships, that meet the under 25,000T requirement.  Those willing to pay the price will still have the thrill of cruising on the Giudecca Canal.

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

48 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

There are actually a few luxury cruise ships, such as 2 of the Silverseas vessels and the Sea Dream ships, that meet the under 25,000T requirement.  Those willing to pay the price will still have the thrill of cruising on the Giudecca Canal.

 

Hank

 

Few and far between though. Even the old R-class ships would be too large...

[Host Jazzbeau]

I don't think we have the exact story yet.  I have seen reports that say 25.000 tonnes, and others that say 25,000 gt – but it isn't clear that the government is using the standard passenger ship measurement that shows up on cruise line statistics.  There is also a length limitation based on waterline, but I don't know if that's the length measurement the cruise lines use.  And something about fuel use or pollution during maneuvering, but again without the kind of specifics that would allow full understanding.  [I'm not an engineer, and neither are any of the reporters – so it's the blind leading the blind.  Maybe @chengkp75 can explain it for us.]

[steamboats]

BTW, here´s the original Decreto (in Italian).

 

They are speaking of GT and regarding the fuel they refer to a fuel with a sulphur content of  0.1% and more.

 

steamboats