No vaccine mixing allowed in US… I hope this changes very very quickly 😱

[tert333]

21 minutes ago, MR_T said:

Just checked and it’s not been updated on the Canadian site yet…

It probably has to replicates over to the Can site.  Not sure how it works, but would guess it should be there soon.   You can always see it on the US site.

[Fouremco]

30 minutes ago, MR_T said:

Just checked and it’s not been updated on the Canadian site yet…

You'd think that the first site they'd update would be the Canadian one. Really, how many in the US have a mixed AZ+other vaccination? Somewhere between 0 and none?

[DirtyDawg]

3 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

I'm happy that Celebrity is allowing now some mixed vaccine combinations as reported by tert333 in post #209.  Good step forward.  With that I am done with everything else in this thread as it has mostly become a lot of political comment and non-sense.  Yes Ignore button is a good suggestion.

Don't leave us @TeeRick !🙏

 

Things are looking better and this mess should be fully resolved fairly quickly. But that will be too late for some unfortunately. I hope everyone affected gets a full refund or can rebook a cruise for a later date.

 

You're right of course about the non-sense, but doesn't every thread on CC end up with a lot of political comment and non-sense? 😉

[CruiserRob]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

I believe Canada's leaders did not have the confidence in the US and left it up to the bidding process

This is incorrect.  We purchased several vaccines from multinational companies with manufacturing capability in many parts of the world.  Companies like Pfizer and Moderna were blocked by the American Government from exporting vaccines so those companies supplied us from European plants.  AstraZenica supplied us from their plant in India.

 

[nocl]

On 7/21/2021 at 7:12 AM, tert333 said:

I agree with you.  No one knows what will happen.  If it is true that J&J is ineffective against the Delta variant, the US will need to make some decisions, without access to fully clinical studies of double vaccinating data.

 

There are only 3 things that we can do:

1/  Put pressure on our politicians to address this issue

2/  Let the cruiselines know this is an issue that has impact on their revenue stream and encourage them to fight the cause for us

3/  Get a 3rd dose of a vaccine to be compliant.

 

i know #3 is not an option in Canada today.  You will need to leave the country to get one.

 

Here is an extract that I sent my MP yesterday.  I had a talk to him and he said the more people engage their elected resources, the greater the chance they will focus on this.   As we all believe there is an election coming up in the fall, they will be more willing to be engaged as they don't want to lose any votes.  Here is an extract that I sent yesterday.  Feel free to cut and paste into your own note to your MP.  I can assure you they will get back to you.

 

On March 13, I took the initial dose of Astrazeneca(AZ) when it was first made available to Ontario residents in the 60 to 70 age range. While at the time, I would have preferred PFizer or Moderna, the recommendation was to get a shot as soon as possible.  So I opted for Astrazeneca as it was the only one available at that time for my age group.

Once the issues with blood clotting became known, Ontario, taking the advice of NACI, started administering PFizer or Moderna as second doses to Astrazeneca.   As you know, the current preference by NACI continues to be to take an mNRA vaccine over Astrazeneca as your second dose, and first doses of AZ are not being administered anymore.

Prior to last week, the cruiselines treated an individual as vaccinated, as long as they received two approved vaccines.  Late last week, they updated their vaccine protocols to reflect further restrictions to their vaccine requirements.  For example, Celebrity Cruises(subsidiary of Royal Caribbean) changed the requirement.  Their requirement now is that mixed dose of an mRNA is fine, but a combination of AZ and Pfizer is not an approved vaccine combination.   In talking to the company, they stated they are following the guidelines as laid out by the CDC.  I have had a similar discussion with Princess Cruises as well(subsidiary of Carnival Corp.)

 

I have a cruise that is booked for the end of September, which I will need to cancel unless something can be done.   It is disappointing that the Canadian and US government would not have worked through the approved vaccination protocols before this.   Furthermore, as you know, Canada has announced the opening of the border to the US on August 9 to vaccinated US citizens.  If the US agrees to do the same only for vaccinated Canadians, I am sure that I will not be able to go to the US, as they will use the same definition CDC provided to the cruiselines.

 

This issue is creating a two tier system, where the vast majority of the population will be able to travel freely and those Canadians who has a combination of AZ and Pfizer, will be restricted.   This is completely unfair as I followed the federal government(NACI) and provincial guidelines.  I am looking to the federal government to come up with a solution immediately that will put us back on the same footing with the rest of the internationally recognized vaccinated Canadians.  

Keep in mind, that even if it has reduced efficacy the J&J vaccine is still authorized by WHO and the FDA so no problem with it being accepted.  The study that showed it is have reduced efficacy was a very small lab study with some other issues.  Other studies have shown it to have good efficacy.

 

 

In the US if a doctor were to decide that it was in the best interest of his patients to received a Pfizer booster they could do so at any time, since the Pfizer vaccine is authorized in the US.  It would be done off label, the individual might have to pay for it, since their insurance might not cover an off label use, but it would be available.  It would be up to the doctor if they wanted to prescribe off label.

 

Once studies (label expansion studies) then the FDA could expand the Pfizer vaccine label to include boosters.

 

Since the person would have completed the required J&J vaccine sequence (1 shot) receiving a booster, even off label would not impact their vaccination status.

 

The only way their vaccination status in the US would change would be if a decision was made that boosters were needed and that there was an "end date" on how long the initial vaccination series would last.  Something that we are not close to at this time.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by nocl

[nocl]

1 hour ago, CruiserRob said:

This is incorrect.  We purchased several vaccines from multinational companies with manufacturing capability in many parts of the world.  Companies like Pfizer and Moderna were blocked by the American Government from exporting vaccines so those companies supplied us from European plants.  AstraZenica supplied us from their plant in India.

 

Not so.  Pfizer and Moderna exported vaccines to many countries.  The problem is that Canada did not place any orders from them early on.  As a result by the time they placed orders they were well down the delivery schedule, behind the orders the US and several other countries had already placed.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by nocl

[Ex-Airbalancer]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

Not so.  Pfizer and Moderna exported vaccines to many countries.  The problem is that Canada did not place any orders from them early on.  As a result by the time they placed orders they were well down the delivery schedule, behind the orders the US and several other countries had already placed.

 

 

sometimes you just want to shake your head in disbelief 

A deal Pfizer signed with the White House last year had barred it from shipping doses made in the United States to other countries until after March 31, according to the source and a U.S. official, who declined to be named because he was not authorized to speak to the press.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/exclusive-pfizer-begins-exporting-us-made-covid-19-shots-abroad-starting-with-2021-04-29/

[Auntiemomo]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

Not so.  Pfizer and Moderna exported vaccines to many countries.  The problem is that Canada did not place any orders from them early on.  As a result by the time they placed orders they were well down the delivery schedule, behind the orders the US and several other countries had already placed.

 

 

If that's the case, then Canada can be faulted for poorly running their vaccine program and then had to scramble to try to catch up by using different doses.  Has it ever been reported that the U.S. mixed doses?  I haven't read anything, but it will be interesting to see how all this comes out in the wash.   

[XLVIII]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

Not so.  Pfizer and Moderna exported vaccines to many countries.  The problem is that Canada did not place any orders from them early on.  As a result by the time they placed orders they were well down the delivery schedule, behind the orders the US and several other countries had already placed.

 

 

The US exported less than 1% of what it produced. Far less than other producers of vaccine.

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/24555/vaccine-doses-produced-and-exported/

[JRG]

3 minutes ago, Auntiemomo said:

If that's the case, then Canada can be faulted for poorly running their vaccine program and then had to scramble to try to catch up by using different doses.  Has it ever been reported that the U.S. mixed doses?  I haven't read anything, but it will be interesting to see how all this comes out in the wash.   

 

Your question would maybe lead to the answer of whether or not the US has mixed vaxes and has data to support a scientific recommendation to help expedite the solution (topic of this forum) and if so then can regulatory agencies RELY on those conclusions to give the green light and let cruisers plan confidently (and sail confidently).

 

Both the USA and Canada need to applaud their current national vaccination rates,  but the rest of the world is going to leave us both dressed up with nowhere to go until approved vaccinations (and their hybrid combinations) are standardized.   

 

 

[nocl]

17 minutes ago, XLVIII said:

The US exported less than 1% of what it produced. Far less than other producers of vaccine.

 

https://www.statista.com/chart/24555/vaccine-doses-produced-and-exported/

Two things the production in the US was 300 million doses according to your article. Since it said that the US exported 1% about 3 million doses.  That 300 million enough for about half of the US population and is still mostly initial orders.

 

When it comes to US vaccine manufacturing much of the US vaccine is manufactured outside of the US.  Which shipped a large amount of Pfizer and other vaccines to other countries based upon when they placed orders. 

 

Canada and largely the EU at the start hitched their wagon to AZ (the tested technology)  and did not place early orders with Moderna and Pfizer (new technology).  Then you had AZ had some delays and the EU threatened a law suit and lock down of exports of AZ from the European plants.  Which further delayed Canadian shipments.  By the time Canada got around to placing orders to Pfizer and Moderna almost all of the first year production was already committed, though they were able to free up some due to improvements in production and changes in doses per vial.

[nocl]

31 minutes ago, Auntiemomo said:

If that's the case, then Canada can be faulted for poorly running their vaccine program and then had to scramble to try to catch up by using different doses.  Has it ever been reported that the U.S. mixed doses?  I haven't read anything, but it will be interesting to see how all this comes out in the wash.   

The US has not allowed mixed doses.  Canada and to some degree the EU put their bets on AZ and did not place early orders on Pfizer and Moderna (even though Pfizer has substantial EU manufacturing capability).  AZ indicated that they could ramp up quickly and produce rather large amounts. 

 

Then in the early days AZ ran into some delays in delivery and the EU threatened breach of contract and threatened to lock exports from AZ plants in the EU.  Do not know if they ever did that, but those delays did have an impact on Canadian deliveries.

 

Not sure how much Canada ordered of AZ and when but I seen to recall that it was a relatively low number.  Then once the vaccines got authorized, they played a rather hectic game of trying to get their hands on what ever supply they could

 

The US on the other hand placed larger orders in the 50-100 million doses with each of the vaccine manufacturers (Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, AZ, etc) early on in the development cycle (part of which was to encourage speedy development).  They also placed a large order with AZ which has not even gotten the OK here.  Those doses have never even gone to fill finish (since they need a label to finish and package them in the US).  I believe the US had okayed a good percentage of those doses to be released to other countries (to be replaced by later manufactured doses).  Going through the fill finish cycle with the label information for those countries.

 

If you wish to call it a poorly run program the error was in not committing millions/billions of dollars to lock up a sufficient supply of vaccine from multiple suppliers, instead placing their initial bet on one company. A decision in normal times would have been the proper fiscally responsible decision.  With Covid, and the rush on initial supplies and even now major vaccine shortages around the world was an issue.  That also is what led to the what ever vaccine was available decision.

 

I would say that they managed well, but were dealing with some severe limitations in locked up orders and supply.

[DirtyDawg]

Who Cares.

No country batted 1,000 with their pandemic response. All they can do is learn from their errors and make improvements. 

 

I expect much better performance from all counties in the next pandemic.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, Airbalancer said:

sometimes you just want to shake your head in disbelief 

A deal Pfizer signed with the White House last year had barred it from shipping doses made in the United States to other countries until after March 31, according to the source and a U.S. official, who declined to be named because he was not authorized to speak to the press.

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/exclusive-pfizer-begins-exporting-us-made-covid-19-shots-abroad-starting-with-2021-04-29/

Keep in mind that the US had already locked up those orders. If you look at the Pfizer announcements from those days they were shipping product to the the countries based upon the committed orders.

 

That included from US plants, EU plants and Asian plants. Other countries that placed early orders were able to get product.  

 

They had placed orders in the 50-100 million doses range from each of the vaccine manufacturers.  At that time that was most of the US manufacturing capability. Though a lot was being spent to increase capacity.

 

There were also some delays in orders to Canada from Pfizer and Moderna plants due to some initial manufacturing challenges

 

Also there was some issues caused by the fact that AZ was not approved until after Pfizer and Moderna.

 

Canada now has orders for over 44  million doses of Moverna and up to 76 million for Pfizer  which is interesting considering the 37 million population.

 

Unfortunately while they list the amounts orders and first delivery dates they do not list when the orders were actually placed with each manufacturer.

Edited July 22, 2021 by nocl

[CruiserRob]

30 minutes ago, nocl said:

Canada and largely the EU at the start hitched their wagon to AZ (the tested technology)  and did not place early orders with Moderna and Pfizer (new technology). 

You say this, but is totally incorrect.

Canada's first orders, starting July of 2020 were for Moderna (20 million with an option for 36 million more), then Pfizer (20 million with an option of 56 million more), then J&J (10 million with an option of 20 million more). the AZ order was not placed until Sept. 2020.  In fact Canada ordered a total of 400 million doses from 7 different manufacturers because no one knew at that time which would be successful in the trials.

[JRG]

20 minutes ago, nocl said:

There were also some delays in orders to Canada from Pfizer and Moderna plants due to some initial manufacturing challenges

 

Probably best not to take it any farther than that right now and just see what happens next.

 

I'm sure many countries would do it slightly different so yes we will learn from it.

[CruiserRob]

Since the US didn't order Pfizer until July of 2020 and Moderna until August of 2020 I don't believe that it can be said that Canada "did not place early orders with Moderna and Pfizer"

[nocl]

34 minutes ago, CruiserRob said:

Since the US didn't order Pfizer until July of 2020 and Moderna until August of 2020 I don't believe that it can be said that Canada "did not place early orders with Moderna and Pfizer"

A couple of quotes concerning the time lines in delivery dates ordered by each country from December 15.  Note that enough supply for vaccinating all Canadians was not until September 2021.

 

First the Canadian.  They had some orders but not fast required delivery dates

 

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau himself has floated September 2021 as a date when a "majority" of Canadians might be inoculated. Dr. Howard Njoo, Canada's deputy chief public health officer, has offered a different estimate, saying that the end of December 2021 would be more likely.

PHAC now says it believes Canada's vaccine supply will be sufficient to allow all Canadians wishing to be vaccinated to get their shots by the end of September.

 

Canada has signed purchase agreements with seven different pharmaceutical companies for up to 418 million doses of the various shots under development — an insurance policy against the possibility that some of the vaccines in development prove to be ineffective in clinical trials. Some supplies could also be donated to developing countries.

The September date is premised on the companies with which Canada has signed purchase agreements — Pfizer, Moderna, Medicago, AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson, Novavax and Sanofi-GlaxoSmithKline — securing regulatory approvals and meeting planned timelines for the delivery of doses, the PHAC spokesperson said.

 

On the other hand the US

 

The U.S. campaign will end earlier because it will receive more doses than Canada in the first quarter. Operation Warp Speed has secured 100 million doses of the promising Moderna product for the first three months of 2021 alone. Canada, by comparison, will receive about 2 million doses between January and March.

 

 

The devil is in the details.  Canada certainly had orders, though it is unclear whose exactly was placed first and for what delivery date.  The US orders were certainly for much larger quantity and earlier delivery dates.  Even in December the article indicated different delivery time frames.

 

So following Canada's stated plan from last December they are certainly ahead of their schedule with 2 months to go.

 

 

There was an article published on July 22 indicating that the US had purchased 100 million doses of Pfizer with an option to go up to 500 million.  But that is when it was reported, not necessarily with the order was placed and negotiated.

Edited July 22, 2021 by nocl

[Ex-Airbalancer]

CDC has said it ok to mix vaccines in January 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/22/cdc-changes-covid-vaccine-guidance-to-ok-mixing-pfizer-and-moderna-shots-in-exceptional-si.html

[bennybear]

2 hours ago, nocl said:

A couple of quotes concerning the time lines in delivery dates ordered by each country from December 15.  Note that enough supply for vaccinating all Canadians was not until September 2021.

 

First the Canadian.  They had some orders but not fast required delivery dates

 

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau himself has floated September 2021 as a date when a "majority" of Canadians might be inoculated. Dr. Howard Njoo, Canada's deputy chief public health officer, has offered a different estimate, saying that the end of December 2021 would be more likely.

PHAC now says it believes Canada's vaccine supply will be sufficient to allow all Canadians wishing to be vaccinated to get their shots by the end of September.

 

Canada has signed purchase agreements with seven different pharmaceutical companies for up to 418 million doses of the various shots under development — an insurance policy against the possibility that some of the vaccines in development prove to be ineffective in clinical trials. Some supplies could also be donated to developing countries.

The September date is premised on the companies with which Canada has signed purchase agreements — Pfizer, Moderna, Medicago, AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson, Novavax and Sanofi-GlaxoSmithKline — securing regulatory approvals and meeting planned timelines for the delivery of doses, the PHAC spokesperson said.

 

On the other hand the US

 

The U.S. campaign will end earlier because it will receive more doses than Canada in the first quarter. Operation Warp Speed has secured 100 million doses of the promising Moderna product for the first three months of 2021 alone. Canada, by comparison, will receive about 2 million doses between January and March.

 

 

The devil is in the details.  Canada certainly had orders, though it is unclear whose exactly was placed first and for what delivery date.  The US orders were certainly for much larger quantity and earlier delivery dates.  Even in December the article indicated different delivery time frames.

 

So following Canada's stated plan from last December they are certainly ahead of their schedule with 2 months to go.

 

 

There was an article published on July 22 indicating that the US had purchased 100 million doses of Pfizer with an option to go up to 500 million.  But that is when it was reported, not necessarily with the order was placed and negotiated.

I have respected your posts.   Though I too have a quibble with your comments that orders weren’t placed early enough not to mention the problems in the Moderna plant. 
 

And yet here we are,   All of this doesn’t matter if people don’t get shots.    With  Canada  now ahead of the US in both those with one shot and those fully vaccinated.   
 

No time for pointing fingers, we need to focus on the hesitant, and on getting shots to other countries.  

[tert333]

7 minutes ago, bennybear said:

I have respected your posts.   Though I too have a quibble with your comments that orders weren’t placed early enough not to mention the problems in the Moderna plant. 
 

And yet here we are,   All of this doesn’t matter if people don’t get shots.    With  Canada  now ahead of the US in both those with one shot and those fully vaccinated.   
 

No time for pointing fingers, we need to focus on the hesitant, and on getting shots to other countries.  

Good summary.  I agree 100%.  No point in focusing on what went wrong, other to learn from it.   Canada has learned a big lesson, that we need our own manufacturing capability.  When the pandemic hit, it was every country for themself. 

 

We have to thank the Europeans for providing Canada vaccines when no one else would supply them. 

 

 

[JRG]

On 7/22/2021 at 4:26 PM, bennybear said:

And yet here we are,   All of this doesn’t matter if people don’t get shots.    With  Canada  now ahead of the US in both those with one shot and those fully vaccinated.   

 

Bennybear,   the US is sending large amount of raw materials to India right now so India they can manufacturer their vaxxes.     

 

The plan your public health department put into play failed to manage the communication plan,  that is all that happened.   The US did not create your problem,  it was just human error. 

 

The US is here to help and this shall pass,  it is not every country for themselves.

 

The world can't change the rules for Canada just because they knocked the puck into their own net, with respect to vax acceptability,  and Canadians need to understand why this is the case.  It is about legitimacy.

 

The dataset for the Canadian vaccination program has forever been corrupted.   While this does not mean immediate danger for Canadian citizens,  it is a huge disappointment for the Canadian scientist who are devoted to their professions.

 

As a cruiser and humanitarian,  I feel for the Canadian citizens whose planning is affected.

 

As a scientist,  I am disappointed for Canadian public health professional who lost the data for their country which is important in the long run.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by JRG

[richardsavage]

Things are evolving: 😁

 

Quebec offers a solution for people who have been refused travel, especially to the United States, because they received two different vaccines. They can now receive an extra dose.

 

https://www.vaughantoday.ca/unrecognized-mixed-vaccines-travelers-may-receive-a-third-dose/

 

Not an official statement but it look good...

[bennybear]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

 

Bennybear,   the US is sending large amount of raw materials to India right now so India they can manufacturer their vaxxes.     

 

The plan your public health department put into play failed to manage the communication plan,  that is all that happened.   The US did not create your problem,  it was just human error. 

 

The US is here to help and this shall pass,  it is not every country for themselves.

 

The world can't change the rules for Canada just because they knocked the puck into their own net, with respect to vax acceptability,  and Canadians need to understand why this is the case.  It is about legitimacy.

 

The dataset for the Canadian vaccination program has forever been corrupted.   While this does not mean immediate danger for Canadian citizens,  it is a huge disappointment for the Canadian scientist who are devoted to their professions.

 

As a cruiser and humanitarian,  I feel for the Canadian citizens whose planning is affected.

 

As a scientist,  I am disappointed for Canadian public health professional who lost the data for their country which is important in the long run.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my post I never said the US created our problem.    My quibble was statements that  we didn’t order early enough.  And concerns re the moderna plant 
 

Not sure what you mean about corrupted data.    It will be different.  The Canadian government made a decision to mix vaccines based on expediency and early studies seem to show an increase in efficacy.  
 

Even our  prime minister has mixed vaccine.  So I’m sure new information will come to light.  

Edited July 24, 2021 by bennybear

[MortgageChick]

On 7/18/2021 at 1:56 PM, DirtyDawg said:

I think my fellow Canadians who have had mixed vaccinations should sit back and open up a nice cold bottle Molson Canadian or take a shot of Canadian Club. Chill, this will get sorted out soon enough. 🍺🥃

Lets hope so....