Is Royal Caribbean trying to get all Canadians to cancel their planned cruises?

[DHLuCruise]

3 minutes ago, Russ Lomas said:

As for the title of the thread, I was really peeved when I was told that we may no longer be considered vaccinated all of a sudden after being considered fully vaccinated 24 hours ago due to a different interpretation of a policy by a RCCL supervisor.  Coming up with a thread title to try to get others to read the thread and possibly enlisting their assistance to have RCCL review their policy in a timely manner and state their policy in a way that cannot be interpreted differently by their different supervisors working for them is something I hope we can achieve.

 

I didn't intend any massive offense with my dislike of the title. This is throwing our family's cruise plans into disarray as well. There is no way I'm going on a cruise ship as 'unvaccinated'. 

 

I've emailed Michael Bayley as well with my concerns around the policy -- explaining the effectiveness of not only mixed doses but the fact that longer intervals of the same dose are already showing to produce better efficacy outcomes (though the CDC hasn't officially weighed in on it yet).  

 

I assure you I'd like to see the policy changed as well. However, from a pure legal and liability perspective I understand why RCCL wants to follow the CDC rules pretty much to the letter without any international consideration.

[RedIguana]

12 hours ago, smplybcause said:

The question is whether this settles in as the flu has or not.

It is a coronavirus, not influenza. It will never settle in like influenza. It is like comparting a rat to a horse biologically.

[smplybcause]

13 minutes ago, RedIguana said:

It is a coronavirus, not influenza. It will never settle in like influenza. It is like comparting a rat to a horse biologically.

 

Good thing I wasn't comparing them biologically. 

[orville99]

2 hours ago, Ourusualbeach said:

And yet Canada who also did not follow manufacturers guidelines with respect to dosing intervals had just under 8 cases per 100,000 over the past 7 days.

Thankfully for Canada they also chose not to follow the U.K. Strategy of porous border controls, age stratification of vaccine eligibility, and what can best be described as a yo-yo lockdown/open up, mask/no mask, travel/no travel, quarantine/no quarantine circus.

[Russ Lomas]

23 minutes ago, DHLuCruise said:

 

I didn't intend any massive offense with my dislike of the title. This is throwing our family's cruise plans into disarray as well. There is no way I'm going on a cruise ship as 'unvaccinated'. 

 

I've emailed Michael Bayley as well with my concerns around the policy -- explaining the effectiveness of not only mixed doses but the fact that longer intervals of the same dose are already showing to produce better efficacy outcomes (though the CDC hasn't officially weighed in on it yet). 

We feel the same as you.  We did everything asked of us to ensure we were classified as "vaccinated" for our cruise in August, and then this appeared out of nowhere.  Hopefully since there are 2 ways to interpret what is printed on their website, they will clarify if the dates apply to all or just those mixing vaccines.  Even their supervisors seem to read it differently.

 

Thanks for emailing Mr. Bayley's office.  I am just hoping that if enough people do this, then it will be looked at sooner rather than later and clarification can be provided to all of us.

[dswallow]

1 hour ago, Russ Lomas said:

We feel the same as you.  We did everything asked of us to ensure we were classified as "vaccinated" for our cruise in August, and then this appeared out of nowhere.  Hopefully since there are 2 ways to interpret what is printed on their website, they will clarify if the dates apply to all or just those mixing vaccines.  Even their supervisors seem to read it differently.

 

Thanks for emailing Mr. Bayley's office.  I am just hoping that if enough people do this, then it will be looked at sooner rather than later and clarification can be provided to all of us.

 

I read the description (What vaccines are accepted? | Royal Caribbean Cruises) and find it's really clear right now what is and is not acceptable.

 

For all departure ports:

 

1) A completed series of a single vaccine brand in accordance with manufacturers timetables as authorized by the US FDA (Pfizer/BionTech, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson/Janssen).

 

2) A completed series of a single vaccine brand in accordance with manufacturers timetables as authorized by the World Health Organization (AstraZeneca/Oxford, Johnson & Johnson/Janssen, Moderna, Pfizer/BionTech, Sinopharm, Sinovac).

 

 

Additional for US departure ports:

 

1) Mixed doses of mRNA vaccines as long as the doses occur between 28 and 42 days apart.

 

 

Additional for non-US departure ports:

 

1) Pfizer / Moderna mixed dose as long as doses given between 28 and 42 days apart.

 

2) AstraZeneca / Pfizer or AstraZeneca / Moderna mixed dose as long as doses given between 4 and 12 weeks apart.

 

 

[DHLuCruise]

18 minutes ago, dswallow said:

 

I read the description (What vaccines are accepted? | Royal Caribbean Cruises) and find it's really clear right now what is and is not acceptable.

 

For all departure ports:

 

1) A completed series of a single vaccine brand in accordance with manufacturers timetables as authorized by the US FDA (Pfizer/BionTech, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson/Janssen).

 

2) A completed series of a single vaccine brand in accordance with manufacturers timetables as authorized by the World Health Organization (AstraZeneca/Oxford, Johnson & Johnson/Janssen, Moderna, Pfizer/BionTech, Sinopharm, Sinovac).

 

 

Additional for US departure ports:

 

1) Mixed doses of mRNA vaccines as long as the doses occur between 28 and 42 days apart.

 

 

Additional for non-US departure ports:

 

1) Pfizer / Moderna mixed dose as long as doses given between 28 and 42 days apart.

 

2) AstraZeneca / Pfizer or AstraZeneca / Moderna mixed dose as long as doses given between 4 and 12 weeks apart.

 

 

 

One of the big issues is they are vague about same doses and the time duration in between.  Different calls to rci have resulted in conflicting statements. We want the policy to be clear rather than up for interpretation based on mood

[dswallow]

1 minute ago, DHLuCruise said:

 

One of the big issues is they are vague about same doses and the time duration in between.  Different calls to rci have resulted in conflicting statements. We want the policy to be clear rather than up for interpretation based on mood

 

They're not; they're just not specific in the document as they are for the mixed doses because those are actually defined by the manufacturers of the specific vaccines and/or by the emergency authorizing entities.

[DHLuCruise]

4 minutes ago, dswallow said:

 

They're not; they're just not specific in the document as they are for the mixed doses because those are actually defined by the manufacturers of the specific vaccines and/or by the emergency authorizing entities.

 

Which is impacting other countries which is why this thread exists. Thanks for pointing this out, its much appreciated.

[MsDolly]

2 hours ago, Russ Lomas said:

We feel the same as you.  We did everything asked of us to ensure we were classified as "vaccinated" for our cruise in August, and then this appeared out of nowhere.  Hopefully since there are 2 ways to interpret what is printed on their website, they will clarify if the dates apply to all or just those mixing vaccines.  Even their supervisors seem to read it differently.

 

Thanks for emailing Mr. Bayley's office.  I am just hoping that if enough people do this, then it will be looked at sooner rather than later and clarification can be provided to all of us.

As a fellow Canadian equally as frustrated with this situation, I understand why the cruise lines are doing this but of course that doesn’t help the millions in Canada being denied the ability to cruise and also travel to certain countries just by trusting our government.

 

I spoke with my Pharmacist today and apparently we can get a third shot, wonder how long that will happen before the government puts the brakes on.  My next trip is not till February but when the border opens I would like to take a road trip and if things go as I expect they might we will need to be fully vaccinated as we demand of them and I will still not meet the requirements without a third shot.

 

I would like to be patient but not sure I can ☹️

[ericfromri]

Nothing to do with Royal. Everything to do with canada.  

[A&L_Ont]

14 minutes ago, MsDolly said:

As a fellow Canadian equally as frustrated with this situation, I understand why the cruise lines are doing this but of course that doesn’t help the millions in Canada being denied the ability to cruise and also travel to certain countries just by trusting our government.

 

I spoke with my Pharmacist today and apparently we can get a third shot, wonder how long that will happen before the government puts the brakes on.  My next trip is not till February but when the border opens I would like to take a road trip and if things go as I expect they might we will need to be fully vaccinated as we demand of them and I will still not meet the requirements without a third shot.

 

I would like to be patient but not sure I can ☹️

My second doses was June 13th.  At this rate, if I were “allowed” a third dose I’d need it in 14 approximately days or less.  Our government isn’t going to make a decision that quickly. Imagine the response when I hand in paperwork to RC showing what day my third dose was, when I only needed two. 

[A&L_Ont]

Just now, ericfromri said:

Nothing to do with Royal. Everything to do with canada.  

I look at it differently.  It’s the FDA and WHO to determine the effectiveness of going against manufacturing recommendations.  Their decision effects multiple countries, Canada being one of them. 

[DHLuCruise]

8 minutes ago, ericfromri said:

Nothing to do with Royal. Everything to do with canada.  

 

Easy to say this being a country that makes virtually all vaccine types, block exporting them until a couple months ago, and being dismissive to anyone else with a concern. (Don't get me wrong -- I understand US's position, but these are the facts).

 

Nobody is saying Royal is evil (the thread title is unfortunate but we've addressed that already). Many countries have followed similar approaches to Canada, UK, many parts of Europe and the far east to deal with the inability to get at sufficient supply while at the same time trying to stop the collapse of their respective health systems.

 

I can say with regard to Canada that the results have been excellent thus-far. This will all resolve itself eventually as countries form agreements around this. Its just right now its a problem for people that are all intents and purposes fully protected but outside of the CDC bounds.

[DHLuCruise]

13 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

My second doses was June 13th.  At this rate, if I were “allowed” a third dose I’d need it in 14 approximately days or less.  Our government isn’t going to make a decision that quickly. Imagine the response when I hand in paperwork to RC showing what day my third dose was, when I only needed two. 

 

I really think the date limits will be lifted eventually. Forcing people to get a third dose just because of that is a bit extreme. That's not to say we don't need a third dose in the future for other reasons...

[discru]

Ok... so... CDC CHANGED their guidelines on the maximum interval between doses for Phizer and Moderna...?

“The second dose should be administered as close to the recommended interval as possible,” the CDC said. “However, if it is not feasible to adhere to the recommended interval, the second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines may be scheduled for administration up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose.”

There’s limited information about how well the vaccines work outside that time frame, the CDC said. If the second dose is given after 6 weeks, there’s no need to restart the series.

CNN said the new CDC guidance “appears to clarify earlier language that said ‘there is no maximum interval between the first and second doses for either vaccine.’ ”

[A&L_Ont]

2 minutes ago, DHLuCruise said:

 

I really think the date limits will be lifted eventually. Forcing people to get a third dose just because of that is a bit extreme. That's not to say we don't need a third dose in the future for other reasons...

The idea of a third shot (not a booster) for many is impossible by the calendar.  I’m almost past the third shot “window” of 42 days. I ask tongue in cheek, do I need to get another first shot and then a follow up second shot to qualify within the proper time frame. 
 

In reality, I agree with you that this will work out in time. I’m not cancelling my March cruise, but if there is uncertainty at final payment it’s a no go. Flights and hotel are booked fully refundable. 

[CruisinCanuck63]

After reading (and rereading) Royal's wordings and looking at the CDC guidelines for the intervals for Pfizer, I truly believe that the 28-42 day timeline is meant to apply to mixed doses only.  

 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/downloads/prep-and-admin-summary.pdf

 

Reasons I believe this:

1) Pfizer and the CDC both recommend the dose interval to be 21 days, not 28 days.  This would mean that anyone in the US who received their doses at the recommended interval would be excluded under this policy.

 

2) The dosing guidelines at the bottom of page 2 actually ALLOW for doses to be administered after the 42 day recommendation and still count as a completed series.

 

[CruisinCanuck63]

However, I should append this by saying that I am probably wrong, but may be right in the future.  Or I may be right and could subsequently be proven wrong.  

[sgmn]

4 hours ago, Russ Lomas said:

People seem to say look at what the Delta variant has done to the UK, and it is just a matter of time before it does the same to Canada.  You raise a good point that the UK were in a different place when Delta arrived there (those less than 40 not having vaccine access yet).  I always point out that those 12-17 are not getting vaccinated in the UK (I hear they just permitted this in the past week for some at risk in that group) and also the main vaccine the UK is using they say is about 65% effective vs Delta vs the main ones Canada is using is about 90% effective against Delta.  For these reasons, I do not think Delta will hit Canada as hard as in the UK.  That said, with many in the US refusing to get vaccinated, their numbers will likely go very high once again.  Our numbers in Canada may rise in the fall when schools open again, but who knows.

 

 

Cases are falling substantially in the UK

Hope it continues 

88% of over 18s have had one jab and 69% have had two in England 

 

BBC News - Coronavirus infections continue to fall in UK
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57962995

Edited July 25, 2021 by sgmn

[Acadie]

23 hours ago, brillohead said:

My local health department is run by some rinky dink hicks, but every day that they did first vaccines, they set aside the same number of vaccines and dated it for three weeks in the future (Pfizer here).  That way even if they didn't get a shipment down the road, they already had the second doses set aside for the people who had gotten the first shot (and those people also had a preset appointment for three weeks in the future).

 

 

Does this mean Americans who received the second dose in less than 28 days (in this case 21 days) are also considered "unvaccinated"?  

[dswallow]

11 minutes ago, Acadie said:

Does this mean Americans who received the second dose in less than 28 days (in this case 21 days) are also considered "unvaccinated"?  

 

Probably not because Royal Caribbean specifically directs people to guidance on the FDA and WHO web sites where it is specifically identified what is considered allowed to be considered a completed vaccination series.

 

BTW, here's some discussion of what to do with WHO-authorized vaccines that are not FDA authorized when the recipient has completed the series and when the recipient has not completed the series, as well as mixed doses, to be considered fully vaccinated in the US, and when/if one is expected to start the full series again with FDA-approved vaccines.

Interim Clinical Considerations for Use of COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC
 

[tottenhamfc]

We are allowing Americans in with J and J but we are not allowing our citizens to partake in that vaccine. We are not allowing Russian Chinese or Indian Astra Zeneca as an acceptable vaccine. Personally I think WHO has to come up with a standard acceptable vaccine protocol and all countries should follow. If any one of these vaccines does not prevent a mutated virus from spreading within a fully vaccinated country over 80% then it should be considered unacceptable. TBF this has nothing to do with cruising or cruise companies. It is all about the confusion it creates with social media being able to access info from all over the world. It makes you unsure about who to believe.

[RoyalC]

On 7/24/2021 at 3:34 PM, DirtyDawg said:

Chill, it's Saturday, by Monday they might change the rules again. And then the following week, something completely different. And the following week ...

 

Looks like we'll be experiencing some rough seas until this mess gets resolved. 

That is the problem. Leadership is awful imo. I have nothing booked. Seems they don't want anyone to cruise. You see how they treat some passengers lately too. I'm finding alternative vacations right now, sadly.  

[John&LaLa]

2 hours ago, CruisinCanuck63 said:

However, I should append this by saying that I am probably wrong, but may be right in the future.  Or I may be right and could subsequently be proven wrong.  

 

Love this, need to steal it.🤣🤣