Celebrity requiring all passengers 12+ to show proof of vaccine in defiance of FL Law?

[Babr]

1 minute ago, Homosassa said:

Any cruise line at any point could have planned itineraries that included ports of call that required vaccination of the ship's passengers that necessitated checking proof of vaccination at the port of embarkation.

 

Providing of vaccination status in order to comply with public health mandates of health authorities was included in both the EO and in the Florida law.

 

NCL wants to do 100% vaccinated cruises without including a port of call where vaccination is mandated by local officials and doesn't want to have the voluntary providing of status and the headache of dealing with the unvaccinated on board.

 

 

So it was illegal for a ship departing from Florida to ask for proof of vaccination unless they were calling on a port that required it?  Are you saying this whole pretense of volunteering vaccine information was determined by the itinerary?

But if NCL or any other cruise line wants to sail only open ports without restrictions, then it is illegal in Florida for them to require vaccination of all passengers?

 

The law is applicable depending on the mandates in place at the destination?  Am I understanding that correctly?

 

 

 

[Fouremco]

28 minutes ago, Babr said:

No, I have not read the Executive Order or the law, but I have read several of the threads on the subject. This is the first time I’ve heard that it was perfectly legal all along for the cruise lines to require proof of vaccination.

 

Isn’t that what the Norwegian Cruise Line case is about?

 

Back up a week or two. Celebrity didn't require that you provided proof of vaccination, they requested such proof. If you were unwilling or unable to do so, then you could board as part of the unvaccinated 5%, assuming that there was still room, and you would be subject to additional health and safety protocols. At that time, cruise ports were not denying entry to ships that carried unvaccinated passengers and crew.

 

Move forward to today and the restrictive approach now being taken by some ports, cruise lines will not be able to continue allowing unvaccinated passengers and crew aboard, and providing proof of vaccination changes from a request to a requirement. Undoubtedly in violation of the Florida law, IMO, but given little choice in the matter, Celebrity is willing to take that risk.

[Babr]

3 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Back up a week or two. Celebrity didn't require that you provided proof of vaccination, they requested such proof. If you were unwilling or unable to do so, then you could board as part of the unvaccinated 5%, assuming that there was still room, and you would be subject to additional health and safety protocols. At that time, cruise ports were not denying entry to ships that carried unvaccinated passengers and crew.

 

Move forward to today and the restrictive approach now being taken by some ports, cruise lines will not be able to continue allowing unvaccinated passengers and crew aboard, and providing proof of vaccination changes from a request to a requirement. Undoubtedly in violation of the Florida law, IMO, but given little choice in the matter, Celebrity is willing to take that risk.

That is what I thought. I gave what I imagined to be the rationale in post #18. It is just that now they can no longer pretend you are only volunteering your information, which does run afoul of the Florida law. At that point, the cruise lines will be denying service based on vaccination status.

 

In all the discussions to this point, I don’t remember anyone saying it has always been legal to ask. Now I find it apparently depended on the requirements of the destination - only illegal if it is not required by other authorities.

 

 

 

[Ken the cruiser]

5 hours ago, fstuff1 said:

Got this email for my cruise out of Ft Lauderdale this Fri (8/27):

 

"The governments of Antigua, Dominica and the US Virgin Islands, have now advised all passengers ages 12 and older, traveling aboard a cruise ship, must be fully vaccinated in order for the ship to be allowed entry into St. Johns, Roseau, St. Thomas, St. Croix, or St. John.

 

To comply with this requirement, guests ages 12 and older must provide documentation of full vaccination at the terminal as a condition for boarding."

 

 

Celebrity is defying FL law that says you cant make people show vax card!

NCL winning their lawsuit vs that law only applies to them. No other cruise line was part of their lawsuit.

 

so What am i missing?

Or is Celebrity willing to pay the fine?

 

BTW you can now add The Bahamas to the list of countries requiring all passengers 12 and older on cruise ships entering their waters to be vaccinated. We’re on the Edge now and there are no unvaccinated passengers 12 and older on our cruise, where one of the stops will be in Nassau. On the last cruise, same thing, only St Thomas was the port requiring the vaccinations on that cruise. 😎

 

[karl_nj]

18 minutes ago, Babr said:

 

 

In all the discussions to this point, I don’t remember anyone saying it has always been legal to ask. Now I find it apparently depended on the requirements of the destination - only illegal if it is not required by other authorities.

 

 

 

 

It's probably more accurate to say that the *enforcement* of the law appears to depend on the requirements of the destination.

 

 

[MR_T]

Whatever the cruise lines can do to keep the un-vaccinated off the ships is fine by me… planes, trains & automobiles should all do the same 😊

Edited August 21, 2021 by MR_T

[mom says]

30 minutes ago, Babr said:

That is what I thought. I gave what I imagined to be the rationale in post #18. It is just that now they can no longer pretend you are only volunteering your information, which does run afoul of the Florida law. At that point, the cruise lines will be denying service based on vaccination status.

 

In all the discussions to this point, I don’t remember anyone saying it has always been legal to ask. Now I find it apparently depended on the requirements of the destination - only illegal if it is not required by other authorities.

 

 

 

 

They could always ASK. They just couldn't REQUIRE that 100% be vaccinated

Federal law, as it applies to international transportation (which a cruise ship is) supercedes state law, and transportation carriers have always required proof of entry qualification into the destination in order to board (as described earlier). The new entry requirements to the mounting number of countries has simply made the cruiselines job easier. A legal way around Florida's  appalling law, which will die in the courts sooner or later. (But not soon enough, IMO).

Edited August 21, 2021 by mom says

[Covepointcruiser]

I don’t understand people stating they have medical reasons to not get vaccinated.   The last poster who said people with MS should not be vaccinated.   People with MS, Diabetes, Obesity, Cancer, Immune Diseases, HIV/AIDS, Allergies have all been encouraged to get vaccinated.   This group has the worst outcomes after catching COVID and should everything possible to avoid getting the disease.   

[nocl]

4 hours ago, canderson said:

Just had an odd thought.  HIPPA rules with regard to the ship's infirmary.  What would HIPPA allow them to share, and with whom?

That would be an interesting question in that HIPPA is a US law concerning the release of medical information.  The cruise ship clinic is on a ship that is not registered in the US and as such would be more likely to be bound by the rules of the country in which the ship is registered than a US law.

 

 

 

 

[canderson]

Just now, nocl said:

That would be an interesting question in that HIPPA is a US law concerning the release of medical information.  The cruise ship clinic is on a ship that is not registered in the US and as such would be more likely to be bound by the rules of the country in which the ship is registered than a US law.

When operating out of a US port?  Counterpoint: The gambling rules in Malta and Liberia are different, too, but the lines can't open the casinos until outside of U.S. waters.

[dkjretired]

2 hours ago, KKB said:

Oh, honey, HIPPA is only in regards to doctors & who they can share it with.

ANYONE can ask--but anyone can choose not to share.

Celebrity has already said, that is fine, but for the safety of crew & passengers if you choose not to share we assume you are unvaccinated & will require some things from you because of that.

FL law won't hold up in the long run--the NCL ruling confirmed that.

Still confused why the governor of a state so reliant on cruising would not do EVERYTHING possible to keep them happy & in business. COVID outbreaks will do nothing to help that & the cruise lines know it.

 

I am a retired LEO and EMT, Hippa covers more than doctors, it covers almost all medical personnel including EMTs and I have had training in it. A good lawyer can play games with it in a court.

Edited August 21, 2021 by dkjretired

[phoenix_dream]

29 minutes ago, Covepointcruiser said:

I don’t understand people stating they have medical reasons to not get vaccinated.   The last poster who said people with MS should not be vaccinated.   People with MS, Diabetes, Obesity, Cancer, Immune Diseases, HIV/AIDS, Allergies have all been encouraged to get vaccinated.   This group has the worst outcomes after catching COVID and should everything possible to avoid getting the disease.   

Up until very recently, pregnant women were advised not to vaccinate.  Same for nursing mothers but not sure where that stands now.  You are correct that people with other conditions you mention are generally told to get the vaccine, but at the same time the CDC says the risk of vaccination complications is unknown.  A difficult decision and to be individually decided with their doctor.  I feel for those struggling with that decision. 

[Babr]

49 minutes ago, Covepointcruiser said:

I don’t understand people stating they have medical reasons to not get vaccinated.   The last poster who said people with MS should not be vaccinated.   People with MS, Diabetes, Obesity, Cancer, Immune Diseases, HIV/AIDS, Allergies have all been encouraged to get vaccinated.   This group has the worst outcomes after catching COVID and should everything possible to avoid getting the disease.   

I’ve wondered that myself since it seems that even groups I thought unlikely are encouraged to vaccinate. The only thing I could find referred to people who had an allergic reaction to the first vaccine or perhaps people with Guillian-Barre Syndrome. I’d think it is a fairly small group.  Other than that, it is up to the advice of one’s doctor. 

[KKB]

32 minutes ago, dkjretired said:

I am a retired LEO and EMT, Hippa covers more than doctors, it covers almost all medical personnel including EMTs and I have had training in it. A good lawyer can play games with it in a court.

But again--ANYONE can ask.

NO ONE has to offer.

HIPPA is about those who know info about OTHER people sharing it w/o their permission.

[Babr]

36 minutes ago, nocl said:

That would be an interesting question in that HIPPA is a US law concerning the release of medical information.  The cruise ship clinic is on a ship that is not registered in the US and as such would be more likely to be bound by the rules of the country in which the ship is registered than a US law.

 

 

 

 

What information would they have to release if  you visited for minor events of some sort - stitches, GI distress, pre-existing condition, Covid testing?  A single event something like visiting an urgent care center? Who would ask for it unless you were disembarked to a hospital? You’d have to ask for documentation if you were going to file an insurance claim.  Try getting that after the fact.

 

I just don’t see it as much of an issue since it is short term minor treatment unless it is emergency stabilization on your way out. In that case, they don’t have much to report except what they did to keep you alive.

 

 

[Turtles06]

9 minutes ago, KKB said:

HIPPA is about those who know info about OTHER people sharing it w/o their permission.

 

First, it's HIPAA (and I apologize for my own typo in a comment earlier)  -- Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act.

 

Second, HIPAA only prohibits certain specific entities (including health plans) and people (including doctors) from sharing health information about others without permission.  It is not a general medical privacy law, but is often misconstrued as such, especially now.     

[CHEZMARYLOU]

1 hour ago, dkjretired said:

I am a retired LEO and EMT, Hippa covers more than doctors, it covers almost all medical personnel including EMTs and I have had training in it. A good lawyer can play games with it in a court.

But cruise lines are not medical personnel. They are not disclosing your medical information, only asking for you to volunteer it. There is no prohibition for the average citizen to give out their medical history.  I can share all I want about myself on Cruise Critics, FB, Instagram, TikToc, etc. My medical providers cannot share anything with anyone not involved in my medical care without my permission.  Or, If I am incapacitated,  without the permission of my medical POA. 

[CHEZMARYLOU]

1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

Up until very recently, pregnant women were advised not to vaccinate.  Same for nursing mothers but not sure where that stands now.  You are correct that people with other conditions you mention are generally told to get the vaccine, but at the same time the CDC says the risk of vaccination complications is unknown.  A difficult decision and to be individually decided with their doctor.  I feel for those struggling with that decision. 

I feel for those who are struggling because of a medical condition, but those are the very people who probably should not be cruising. I'm sure we all know people who won't get vaccinated because of non medical reasons. Those are the people we try to avoid.

 

[canderson]

35 minutes ago, Babr said:

What information would they have to release if ... Covid testing?

The results.

[CHEZMARYLOU]

Just asking. Isn't one of the CSO the requirement that cruise lines have agreements with ports as to how to handle Covid positive cases? If so, wouldn't sharing this info fall under the CDC CSO?

[Babr]

Just now, canderson said:

The results.

But you’d still have to give your permission under HIPAA.

[canderson]

11 minutes ago, Babr said:

But you’d still have to give your permission under HIPAA.

If in play (which is the question on the rable), yes - exactly.  Doesn't require too much imagination to know what kind of chocolate mess would ensue if the test was positive and the passenger declined.  I expect that's covered somewhere under the same Ts&Cs whether the test is a regularly scheduled one for unvax'd pax or one that comes up for other reasons for vax'd pax.  It was the weird latter case that came to mind.

Edited August 22, 2021 by canderson
spelchek!!!!

[phoenix_dream]

17 minutes ago, CHEZMARYLOU said:

I feel for those who are struggling because of a medical condition, but those are the very people who probably should not be cruising. I'm sure we all know people who won't get vaccinated because of non medical reasons. Those are the people we try to avoid

 

We agree.  I was responding to the question of why people claim they have a medical condition and can't get vaccinated.  They definitely should not be cruising at this point in time.  

[nocl]

52 minutes ago, Babr said:

What information would they have to release if  you visited for minor events of some sort - stitches, GI distress, pre-existing condition, Covid testing?  A single event something like visiting an urgent care center? Who would ask for it unless you were disembarked to a hospital? You’d have to ask for documentation if you were going to file an insurance claim.  Try getting that after the fact.

 

I just don’t see it as much of an issue since it is short term minor treatment unless it is emergency stabilization on your way out. In that case, they don’t have much to report except what they did to keep you alive.

 

 

The one time I used a clinic on ship they gave me a detailed statement, including ICD 10 codes to provide to my insurance company. 

[songbird1329]

So let’s talk about HIPAA.

 

it prohibits medical personnel from disclosing medical conditions to third parties.  Exempt from the prohibition are those who need to know, like medical insurers.  You sign a release in your doctor’s office to allow the release of your information to the insurer.

 

I haven’t seen  the pleasings in the NYC cases, but my educated guess is that the plaintiffs are arguing that they are being compelled to release health information to someone who doesn’t need to know, in violation of HIPAA.  I don’t know how far the argument will go.  I think the ADA argument is a stronger one.