Simply more's impact on current bookings?

[basor]

5 minutes ago, Psoque said:

Actually, the new pricing model will make the pricing a bit more opaque than before.  With “Simply More,” the cost of Wifi (or, more precisely cost of the second Wifi user), the cost of mealtime alcohol, and the cost of excursion credit will be bundled into the cruise fare, making it nearly impossible to separate it out.

Since you can't unbundle it and pick and choose, there is nothing to use the cost of these items for - the price of the cruise is the price of the cruise so if the price for an O cruise with their inclusions works for you then book and if it does not than choose another cruise line option.  In my opinion, it is completely transparent - here is the price of the cruise with these included items....no adding and subtracting....simple.

[ak1004]

9 minutes ago, Psoque said:

Actually, the new pricing model will make the pricing a bit more opaque than before.  With “Simply More,” the cost of Wifi (or, more precisely cost of the second Wifi user), the cost of mealtime alcohol, and the cost of excursion credit will be bundled into the cruise fare, making it nearly impossible to separate it out.

 

Well, with oLife, you could say the same about the cost of the first WiFi. Or the cost of specialty restaurants. How about the cost of non alcoholic beverages? 

 

The question is why do you need to separate them? It's a single price with “Simply More", you know what's included and what's not, the only question now is how does it compare to the competitors?

 

Not everyone might like the new inclusions and the price increase associated with it (we don't as non drinkers), but there is no doubt that the new pricing model is indeed more simple than the previous one.

[Psoque]

1 minute ago, basor said:

Since you can't unbundle it and pick and choose, there is nothing to use the cost of these items for - the price of the cruise is the price of the cruise so if the price for an O cruise with their inclusions works for you then book and if it does not than choose another cruise line option.  In my opinion, it is completely transparent - here is the price of the cruise with these included items....no adding and subtracting....simple.

And I consider this a good example of opaque pricing.   Oceania is switching to a model where the passengers are given an invoice without itemization.  That does not mean the value is going down or there will be any kind of price gouging.  It’s just opaque.  Whether you choose to consumer alcohol or not, you are charged something for it….we just don’t know what that amount is.  Also, we really don’t know how much of the total is from the “cost” of “free” shore excursions that you may or may not take.

 

The problem with opaque pricing is that it becomes harder (and technically impossible) for the consumer to evaluate the value-to-price ratio.

 

Obviously, not everyone is concerned with something crazy like looking at value-to-price ratio, but I do when shopping around for a cruise.  It’s not the only factor into choosing a cruise, but it is a factor.

[ak1004]

4 minutes ago, Psoque said:

And I consider this a good example of opaque pricing.   Oceania is switching to a model where the passengers are given an invoice without itemization.  That does not mean the value is going down or there will be any kind of price gouging.  It’s just opaque.  Whether you choose to consumer alcohol or not, you are charged something for it….we just don’t know what that amount is.  Also, we really don’t know how much of the total is from the “cost” of “free” shore excursions that you may or may not take.

 

The problem with opaque pricing is that it becomes harder (and technically impossible) for the consumer to evaluate the value-to-price ratio.

 

Obviously, not everyone is concerned with something crazy like looking at value-to-price ratio, but I do when shopping around for a cruise.  It’s not the only factor into choosing a cruise, but it is a factor.

 

How was it different before? They still were giving you an invoice without itemization of WiFi, specialty restaurants, non alcoholic beverages etc. They are just moving closer to the all inclusive model of SB and SS. Does anyone consider SB or SS pricing "opaque"? It's just up to you to compare between different brands considering all inclusions.

[Flatbush Flyer]

6 minutes ago, Psoque said:

…..The problem with opaque pricing is that it becomes harder (and technically impossible) for the consumer to evaluate the value-to-price ratio.…

Not really.

You’ve got a price and a list of the services/items provided. You can then compare that to equal provisions (included or at optional cost) on comparable cruise lines with similar itineraries.  

[GeezerCouple]

8 minutes ago, Psoque said:

And I consider this a good example of opaque pricing.   Oceania is switching to a model where the passengers are given an invoice without itemization.  That does not mean the value is going down or there will be any kind of price gouging.  It’s just opaque.  Whether you choose to consumer alcohol or not, you are charged something for it….we just don’t know what that amount is.  Also, we really don’t know how much of the total is from the “cost” of “free” shore excursions that you may or may not take.

 

The problem with opaque pricing is that it becomes harder (and technically impossible) for the consumer to evaluate the value-to-price ratio.

 

Obviously, not everyone is concerned with something crazy like looking at value-to-price ratio, but I do when shopping around for a cruise.  It’s not the only factor into choosing a cruise, but it is a factor.

Okay...

 

So how do passengers "evaluate the value to price ratio" of the food?  Or included beverages?  Or the pool?  Or the services of the stewards?  The "included" things are just... "included". 

 

GC

[edgee]

7 minutes ago, Psoque said:

And I consider this a good example of opaque pricing.   Oceania is switching to a model where the passengers are given an invoice without itemization.  That does not mean the value is going down or there will be any kind of price gouging.  It’s just opaque.  Whether you choose to consumer alcohol or not, you are charged something for it….we just don’t know what that amount is.  Also, we really don’t know how much of the total is from the “cost” of “free” shore excursions that you may or may not take.

 

The problem with opaque pricing is that it becomes harder (and technically impossible) for the consumer to evaluate the value-to-price ratio.

 

Obviously, not everyone is concerned with something crazy like looking at value-to-price ratio, but I do when shopping around for a cruise.  It’s not the only factor into choosing a cruise, but it is a factor.

Did you say pricing was opaque under pre Simply More model because soft drinks, specialty restaurants, one wifi connection and laundry were included? How about when Oceania stopped charging for machines in the laundry room? I doubt it. How is this a change in model when Oceania is just adding to the list of items they already include in contrast to larger ship mass market cruise lines?Now we're getting some alchohol, a second wifi (worth a lot to many, especially on a long cruise) and the tours...additions to the list..not a change in model...some will like it, some will not.

[YourWorldWithBill]

1 hour ago, ak1004 said:

I couldn't say it better.

It's not only about the food, it's the whole package.

Exactly. As your note was in response to an earlier comment suggesting that one could just eat in specialty restaurants on less expensive lines: When in a Neptune suite on Holland America, I found the food in the specialty restaurants pretty average. That's why Oceania.

[Psoque]

14 minutes ago, edgee said:

Did you say pricing was opaque under pre Simply More model because soft drinks, specialty restaurants, one wifi connection and laundry were included? How about when Oceania stopped charging for machines in the laundry room? I doubt it. How is this a change in model when Oceania is just adding to the list of items they already include in contrast to larger ship mass market cruise lines?Now we're getting some alchohol, a second wifi (worth a lot to many, especially on a long cruise) and the tours...additions to the list..not a change in model...some will like it, some will not.

No. Either you don’t understand what is meant by opaque/bundled pricing, or you are pretending to be.  My point is that, Oceania is simultaneously bundling multiple things into this Simply More pricing in conjunction with actual changes to prices.  It is making their prices MORE opaque than before.  Obviously, any cruise booking. has an element of opaqueness.  It’s impossible to price out meals, use of pool, etc.  However, the Oceania’s business practice pre-Simply More had an element of opaqueness that was more pronounced than some (not all) competitors.  The proof is that many (new??) Oceania customers really thought that OLife OBC option was some sort of a money-saving deal/perk.

Depending on how we look at it, SimplyMore makes the buying process “simpler” because there will be less options.  From what I understand there will be just two options:  either with air or without.  That’s good.  I’m not disagreeing with that part.

 

My concern is that, when too many things are bundled at the same time, we lose the ability to compare the value/price ratio, unless we compared to all-inclusive lines, which, from what I have experienced, include even more.

[edgee]

2 minutes ago, Psoque said:

Either you don’t understand what is meant by opaque/bundled pricing, or you are pretending to be.

I understand what opaque is and I am not a "pretender." I do understand your point that the opaqueness is a matter of degree. I just do not find the additional inclusion of items a significant problem. Also, the shore excursion credit is not really opaque since the dollar amount is openly stated. However, many, including myself, find it to be the part they like the least.

[Psoque]

14 minutes ago, edgee said:

I understand what opaque is and I am not a "pretender." I do understand your point that the opaqueness is a matter of degree. I just do not find the additional inclusion of items a significant problem. Also, the shore excursion credit is not really opaque since the dollar amount is openly stated. However, many, including myself, find it to be the part they like the least.

In regard to the excursion credit, the new system is even more opaque than OLife because now that is SimplyMore is bundled into everything and cannot be removed (I think, as far as we know) we have no idea how much we are paying for the shore excursion credit.  At least with OLife, you had a choice of not participating in it, and therefore there was a way to find out how much you are being charged for your “perk” of your choice.  And the actual dollar amount value for excursion credit has always been a bit dubious in regard to its actual “value,” since shore excursions sold onboard are typically overinflated…but that’s another issue.  Either way, SimplyMore, in the way it is introduced now, does not appear to add “value” to consumers, and it will make even harder for consumers to evaluate the value/cost ratio in comparison with other cruise lines, unless all other cruise lines adopt something similar to SimplyMore.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Psoque

[AMHuntFerry]

16 minutes ago, Psoque said:

My concern is that, when too many things are bundled at the same time, we lose the ability to compare the value/price ratio, unless we compared to all-inclusive lines, which, from what I have experienced, include even more.

You only lose the ability to compare the value/price ratio on individual items. The ability to compare the total price is preserved since you can add up what you are willing to pay (e.g., cabin = $150/person/day, drinks = $20/person/day, laundry = $0, lattes = $10/person/day, pool/hot tub = $0, etc.).

[Psoque]

8 minutes ago, AMHuntFerry said:

You only lose the ability to compare the value/price ratio on individual items. The ability to compare the total price is preserved since you can add up what you are willing to pay (e.g., cabin = $150/person/day, drinks = $20/person/day, laundry = $0, lattes = $10/person/day, pool/hot tub = $0, etc.).

You cannot do that since there no universal “reasonable price list” for everything you listed above.  The biggest issue is that now that the payment of the “cost” of shore excursions will be mandatory, and Oceania (and for that matter any other cruise) line has the ability price the excursions (or what we get at that said price) at their discretion, so we have no idea how much we are really “getting” for the premium we pay for SimplyMore, at least until we finish the cruise.

 

If Oceania has done this differently, it would have been less opaque.  One example is to make Wifi unlimited for more than one user without changing the price model.  At least then, they can actually call it “free.”

 

[Sthrngary]

I personally understand this debate on comparing different brands.  Allow me to give an analogy.  When someone compares to very similar trucks.  One is a Ford and the other is a Chevrolet.  The Manufacturer studies each others pricing strategy.  They purposefully make it close to impossible to compare.  This is done on purpose so a complete comparison will never be an Apple to Apple comparison.  It is a marketing strategy and it has worked for decades. 

 

When I started my research on which cruise brand I wanted to sail for my Mediterranean cruise, I attempted to do a excel to clearly show the differences.  Boy was that a task.  The biggest issue I had was how do you compare Regent Seven Seas to lets say Oceania.  Regent is as close to all inclusive as you can get.  Oceania allowed choices at the time allowing a lower price point.  I had to do things like Add/Delete Business Class Airfare; Add costs to Oceania for excursions every day since Regent Excursions were part of there price.  Number of internet devices, drink packages, and the list was exhausting.  I did it though and learned a lot.  My quote of, "it is all in the fine print was never so accurate".  

 

I choose Oceania at the end of the day because I did not need or want some of the "All-Inclusive" items provided by Regent.  WHY, I just would not use them.  That last sentence seems to be the core of the debate.  Why pay for things you don't want or need?  Example, if I don't drink (I drink and enjoy drinking, just saying.) why do I have to pay for a drink program.  It seems, to be confirmed tomorrow for all, that Oceania made a business decision to take a more "All Inclusive LITE" approach which I am sure had to to with a very expensive consultant who did a very detailed presentation.  I say LITE because it is still things like Beer and Wine with upgrade for spirits.  Coach airfare with upgrade for higher.  One guaranteed Specialty restaurant per specialty restaurant. This keeps Oceania less than some and more expensive than other brands for a similar cruise. 

 

Notice I did not talk about things like Dining because it is impossible to compare because we all have different likes/dislikes. My results of my Regent/Oceania comparison was interesting.  Regent was still higher however when all was added in, Oceania was close.  "You get what you pay for ONLY if what you paid for was what you wanted."  We all have a choice regardless of what we liked in the past.  I LOVED the NCL Haven.  Yet, I am on Oceania.  My choice, my money, my research. 

 

Cruise well and enjoy every moment. 

[AMHuntFerry]

5 minutes ago, Psoque said:

You cannot do that since there no universal “reasonable price list” for everything you listed above.  The biggest issue is that now that the payment of the “cost” of shore excursions will be mandatory, and Oceania (and for that matter any other cruise) line has the ability price the excursions (or what we get at that said price) at their discretion, so we have no idea how much we are really “getting” for the premium we pay for SimplyMore, at least until we finish the cruise.

 

If Oceania has done this differently, it would have been less opaque.  One example is to make Wifi unlimited for more than one user without changing the price model.  At least then, they can actually call it “free.”

 

The price that is charged has absolutely nothing to do with the value to an individual. This is where we differ. I think you are more about comparing different prices, not price-to-value. For example, I will not pay a dime to go on an excursion that has no ($0) value to me even if it's price is $500.

[Jancruz]

5 hours ago, ORV said:

There has seemed to be an influx of negativity to this site lately. Seriously folks, life is good, we can afford to take nice vacations, look on the bright side, not everyone is out to trick you or steal your money. 

Oh Orv, said so well..I try not to even read this any more and certainly do my best not to write on here unless it is fluff..no more help..the new people on this board dont appreciate it or believe what I say..

Hope you have lots of big O points..

Regards,

Jancruz1

P.S. I personally love Simply More from the name to the way you book it no more questions about what goes with what..so easy!

Edited June 30, 2023 by Jancruz

[ak1004]

Definition of opaque:

 

not able to be seen through; not transparent

 

Old model:

• Cruise only or
• Cruise plus air or
• cruise plus excursions or
• cruise plus OBC or
• cruise plus air credit or
• Cruise plus air or
• cruise plus excursions plus air or
• cruise plus OBC plus air or
• cruise plus air credit plus air or

 

New model:

• Cruise only or
• Cruise plus air

 

Which one is more "opaque"?

 

Another angle:

 

Cruise has the following elements:

• Breakfast
• Lunch
• Afternoon tea
• Dinner
• Room service
• In room dining
• Accommodation
• Cabin Stuart service
• Butler service
• Self laundry service
• Valet laundry service
• Specialty restaurants
• Water and basic tea/coffee
• Soft drinks
• Specialty tea/coffee
• Alcohol at meals
• Alcohol anytime
• First WiFi
• Second WiFi
• Free shuttles
• Free unlimited black caviar

 

I'm sure I forgot something, but you get the idea.

 

Now you compare the prices and what's included with every line and decide what works the best for you.

[ak1004]

28 minutes ago, Sthrngary said:

I personally understand this debate on comparing different brands.  Allow me to give an analogy.  When someone compares to very similar trucks.  One is a Ford and the other is a Chevrolet.  The Manufacturer studies each others pricing strategy.  They purposefully make it close to impossible to compare.  This is done on purpose so a complete comparison will never be an Apple to Apple comparison.  It is a marketing strategy and it has worked for decades. 

 

When I started my research on which cruise brand I wanted to sail for my Mediterranean cruise, I attempted to do a excel to clearly show the differences.  Boy was that a task.  The biggest issue I had was how do you compare Regent Seven Seas to lets say Oceania.  Regent is as close to all inclusive as you can get.  Oceania allowed choices at the time allowing a lower price point.  I had to do things like Add/Delete Business Class Airfare; Add costs to Oceania for excursions every day since Regent Excursions were part of there price.  Number of internet devices, drink packages, and the list was exhausting.  I did it though and learned a lot.  My quote of, "it is all in the fine print was never so accurate".  

 

I choose Oceania at the end of the day because I did not need or want some of the "All-Inclusive" items provided by Regent.  WHY, I just would not use them.  That last sentence seems to be the core of the debate.  Why pay for things you don't want or need?  Example, if I don't drink (I drink and enjoy drinking, just saying.) why do I have to pay for a drink program.  It seems, to be confirmed tomorrow for all, that Oceania made a business decision to take a more "All Inclusive LITE" approach which I am sure had to to with a very expensive consultant who did a very detailed presentation.  I say LITE because it is still things like Beer and Wine with upgrade for spirits.  Coach airfare with upgrade for higher.  One guaranteed Specialty restaurant per specialty restaurant. This keeps Oceania less than some and more expensive than other brands for a similar cruise. 

 

Notice I did not talk about things like Dining because it is impossible to compare because we all have different likes/dislikes. My results of my Regent/Oceania comparison was interesting.  Regent was still higher however when all was added in, Oceania was close.  "You get what you pay for ONLY if what you paid for was what you wanted."  We all have a choice regardless of what we liked in the past.  I LOVED the NCL Haven.  Yet, I am on Oceania.  My choice, my money, my research. 

 

Cruise well and enjoy every moment. 

 

Very well said.

 

And now it all comes to pricing.

 

We booked 3 SS cruises and are willing to pay for the drinks because the price even with drinks and all other inclusions was comparable to O (and obviously we liked the itinerary). We will continue booking O even after tomorrow's price increase IF the overall price is still competitive (knowing that we would pay for things we don't use). But since now all premium lines will include drinks (Windstar is one exception), and we are not going back to Celebrity/Hal), we don't have much choice. 

 

Using your Ford/Chevrolet analogy, I'm sure we are not using half of the feature of the new cars (heads up display come to mind as an example), but we still buy cars because basically all of them now include some of those cool but useless features.

Edited June 30, 2023 by ak1004

[AMHuntFerry]

6 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

Definition of opaque:

 

not able to be seen through; not transparent

 

Old model:

• Cruise only or
• Cruise plus air or
• cruise plus excursions or
• cruise plus OBC or
• cruise plus air credit or
• Cruise plus air or
• cruise plus excursions plus air or
• cruise plus OBC plus air or
• cruise plus air credit plus air or

 

New model:

• Cruise only or
• Cruise plus air

 

Which one is more "opaque"?

 

Another angle:

 

Cruise has the following elements:

• Breakfast
• Lunch
• Afternoon tea
• Dinner
• Room service
• In room dining
• Accommodation
• Cabin Stuart service
• Butler service
• Self laundry service
• Valet laundry service
• Specialty restaurants
• Water and basic tea/coffee
• Soft drinks
• Specialty tea/coffee
• Alcohol at meals
• Alcohol anytime
• First WiFi
• Second WiFi
• Free shuttles
• Free unlimited black caviar

 

I'm sure I forgot something, but you get the idea.

 

Now you compare the prices and what's included with every line and decide what works the best for you.

Another version is, "what am I willing to pay in total and per day to have my 'required' items?"; and "am I willing to pay anything for my 'wish list' items?"...Much easier since all I need is my requirements (and any wishes that I'm willing to pay for) and my price maximums (total and per day). I do enjoy spreadsheets, but I also enjoy simplification.

[AMHuntFerry]

For those who want to get some final speculation in:
When (in ET) will the July 1st prices be posted? midnight? 5 am? 8 am?

I vote for midnight (~8 hours from now).

If you have noticed when past price changes have occurred, your guess may be better (i.e., I'm purely guessing with no past performance data).

[SATaxman]

1 minute ago, AMHuntFerry said:

For those who want to get some final speculation in:
When (in ET) will the July 1st prices be posted? midnight? 5 am? 8 am?

I vote for midnight (~8 hours from now).

If you have noticed when past price changes have occurred, your guess may be better (i.e., I'm purely guessing with no past performance data).

I was wondering the same thing. Midnight EST is my guess. What do I win if I am correct? 🙂

 

[EJL2023]

4 minutes ago, AMHuntFerry said:

For those who want to get some final speculation in:
When (in ET) will the July 1st prices be posted? midnight? 5 am? 8 am?

I vote for midnight (~8 hours from now).

If you have noticed when past price changes have occurred, your guess may be better (i.e., I'm purely guessing with no past performance data).

Sadly, probably many will be hitting the site at midnight in hopes of being the first to throw a “told you “ out there! 

[Lastdance]

4 minutes ago, SATaxman said:

I was wondering the same thing. Midnight EST is my guess. What do I win if I am correct? 🙂

 

You win the award for being right; in today’s world, that’s a big deal!

[LHT28]

30 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

• Free unlimited black caviar

 

 

Is that for top suite guests?

[susiesan]

1 hour ago, edgee said:

Did you say pricing was opaque under pre Simply More model because soft drinks, specialty restaurants, one wifi connection and laundry were included? How about when Oceania stopped charging for machines in the laundry room? I doubt it. How is this a change in model when Oceania is just adding to the list of items they already include in contrast to larger ship mass market cruise lines?Now we're getting some alchohol, a second wifi (worth a lot to many, especially on a long cruise) and the tours...additions to the list..not a change in model...some will like it, some will not.

The issue is all the more comes with a hefty price increase. If I wanted all of those inclusions I would have been cruising with SB or SS or RSS or Viking. There are more of us cruise only customers out here than you think, they are not on CC. We are not happy.