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Just back from 14 day B2B on Caribbean Princess


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Hi! We just returned last night from the 7-day Western Caribbean Feb. 28-March 6 followed by 7 day Eastern Caribbean March 6-13 cruises. As always, we had a wonderful time I hope some of what I write here might be helpful for others who are doing these last cruises from Bayport, Houston before Princess leaves this port.

 

First of all, I had read about all the problems of embarking and disembarking due to the fog and wind conditions. We had no problems with any of the three days (beginning, in-transit, and end) in Houston. All went smoothly. Because of my CC reading, we did Princess Air and transfer to the port (in case the weather conditions did cause problems.) The only "problem" at all was that we didn't get on board until 1:35 due to our plane arrival time and transfer so we were five minutes too late to enjoy the MDR lunch....We could deal with that :D and found Horizon Court worked out fine!

 

Talking about eating though....Let me insert here that the food on board these two weeks was about the best that we have had on our cruises. We ate most of our three daily meals in the MDR with anytime dining in the evening. Because we like to eat early, we came down at 5:00 for dinner and never had to wait at all to be seated (we liked to ""share" at a table with six and met so many interesting people this way.) However, we did notice that people who came in as we were leaving (around 6:15-6:30 usually) did sometimes have to wait with a "beeper", don't know how long or how often. But the food was SO good that we were happy to have the repeat menu the second week to have our favorites a second time and also to try some of the options not chosen the first week. My favorite dinners were the lobster/scampi on 2nd formal nights, the surf and turf, and the orange roughy but that's subjective. The Normal Love chocolate desserts (three different ones were served) were unbelievably decadent and we enjoyed all of our desserts. We did sometimes eat in the buffet for breakfast and lunch but only when time/excursions or port days with no MDR for lunch made that a good option. The buffet was just fine for people who enjoy buffets. We never had a meal in the International Cafe but did enjoy a few of their treats, especially the special chocolate one that was available each day. We ate at the grill once and it was ok, tried a slice of pizza and found it ok....never ate in the specialty restaurants so I can't help you there.

 

Our captain Nicolo Bommarco was fine except it was difficult to understand him when he spoke over the loud speaker. I have already forgotten the cruise director's name--he was adequate but nothing like some cruise directors who are always seen everywhere and really make themselves available. I enjoy line dancing and Carla was quite good although the sessions were short (about a half hour) and in much too crowded spaces.

The shows were just wonderful! The singers/dancers did three performances the first week (Bravo, Born to be Wild, and Piano Man, I think it was) and just the first two shows the second week when Princess had Entertainer of the Year performances which were great! The three contestants for this honor were A.J. Jamal (comedy), Alex Ramon (magic/illusion), and the winner Nathan Foley (singer/dancer/musician) and each did two shows and I recommend that you see them if you ever have the opportunity. We found that the 7:00 shows were easier to get into than the 8:15 and were told that the best ones to attend for good, last minute seating were the 10:00 shows. We tended to go about a half hour early to the 7:00 show and there were generally still seats available up until the last minute. In terms of movies, we just watched The Martian in the Princess Theatre which was very enjoyable.

 

In terms of activities, I guess it depends on what you enjoy. There were the usual trivia games and other games put on by staff members during the daytime and evening hours. There were the same art lectures/auctions. We did the cooking demonstration/galley tour the first week and found it to be quite informative as well as humorous. My husband went to the one real lecture which was the navigational one. The backstage tour was only the first week and we liked that. One sad thing for us was that even though it was a Caribbean cruise, the pools were much too cool for comfort and were mainly used by the children. We got into suits and tried the pools twice and ended up only in the hot tubs both times and gave up after that but were informed by others that the pools all stayed cold.

We enjoyed all our excursions. In Roaton, we did a Fun in the Sun" tour with Victor Bodden which was inexpensive and excellent with a tour around the island followed by two hours on the beautiful beach with lounge chair (we stayed in the coolish water the whole time so didn't really need the lounger) and bathrooms/dressing areas were good. We also enjoyed our included time at his monkey place where monkeys were happy to climb over us so we could take photos if desired.

 

In Cozumel we did San Gervasio Mayan Ruins & Chocolate Experience. I highly recommend this if you want to see Mayan ruins without the long hours of travel and potential choppy waters with the ferry that many have given bad reviews about on CC. The ruins aren't sensational but are a short bus ride away and are interesting to explore. The chocolate experience was a true demonstration of chocolate making from the beginning of cocoa beans to the end products which we got to sample--a very pleasant morning if you're not looking for a beach experience.

 

In Belize, we did the all day Altun Ha Mayan Ruyins, scenic river cruise & lunch excursion. By the way, we sprayed ourselves with insect spray in both Cozumel and Belize, none of which proved necessary at all as there was not a mosquito in sight. We really enjoyed the long river cruise where we did get to see howler monkeys and some other wildlife. What I especially appreciated was that although the day was warm and humid )mid 80's), the boat driver would go quite fast to get us cooled off in the breeze whenever he could, stopping only when a crocodile or other creature was sighted so we could see well. Oh, and the ruins were very good ones. We didn't climb to the top as some did, but we did climb about in several sections and got a good feel. The guides were very interesting too.

Our second week was not as lucky for ports and some cruisers were very disappointed. The worst part was that we were informed that we could not go to Key West, which we were all looking forward to, mostly because one of the ship's generators needed repair and although the ship was still fine, it just could not travel as fast and with some windy conditions, would have slowed us down too much. But, many of us were pleased with the compensation that Princess gave at the end, $50 each for missing the port and 15% of our cruise price as obc on a future cruise. Also, Princess Cays was cancelled because of weather (I know many cruisers don't like that port but we always enjoy it for swimming, snorkeling, and lunch) but at least there, Nassau was substituted so we did get a port. For Nasasu, we did a Paradise Island excursion which we thought would be pretty silly but ended up enjoying our hour's guided tour of the various aquariums in the Atlantis type settings around the resort plus exploring the area ourselves and finding lagoons with sharks, water turtles, and sting rays.

 

So the only one of the three planned ports we made that second week was Freeport. That was a bit of a disappointment since we had scheduled the Western Heritage and Snorkel Tour excursion, only to be sent a note that the company was canceling the snorkeling time but we could enjoy more time on the beach instead (we felt that was ridiculous when they weren't lowering the price to compensate) so cancelled that and changed to a kayaking/nature walk/beach excursion, kayaking through mangroves which was about a 90 minute 2-in-a-kayak ride and kept us working. The nature walk part of the excursion was nothing, only a few minutes of our guide talking about trees as we crossed a bridge which led to the beach part of the tour. The bad part was that we were never told that there were no bathrooms available for this several hour excursion except for two very primitive outhouses near the kayak section that were really bad, not even toilet paper and very dirty, but a necessity to use because of the length of the excursion. But the beach area was beautiful and it was fun wandering around the area although no one in our excursion swam since the water was cold and there was no place to change back into clothes. And the kayaking was fun. One has to make the best of any excursion and there is almost always enjoyment to be found!

 

In all, although there were occasional glitches, we had a great cruise and bought more future cruise credits even though we already have two more cruises booked this year. The crew was excellent, always working hard and always friendly with smiles (every crew member deserves the daily gratuity, that's for sure!) We used the laundry service and everything came out beautifully. The internet service worked well sometimes and not as well other times, pretty typical. The library has very few novels but a lot of people like myself brought books on board and used the book exchange shelf. We were very lucky with beautiful weather almost every day. Crew were continuously painting areas on the outside and cleaning on the inside. We found the ship to be cozy and comfortable although not spectacular like the Royal or Regal in terms of grandeur.

 

I'll try to come back here in case anyone has any questions.

Edited by anteaters
Wanted to insert spaces between paragraphs
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Hi! We just returned last night from the 7-day Western Caribbean Feb. 28-March 6 followed by 7 day Eastern Caribbean March 6-13 cruises. As always, we had a wonderful time I hope some of what I write here might be helpful for others who are doing these last cruises from Bayport, Houston before Princess leaves this port.

 

First of all, I had read about all the problems of embarking and disembarking due to the fog and wind conditions. We had no problems with any of the three days (beginning, in-transit, and end) in Houston. All went smoothly. Because of my CC reading, we did Princess Air and transfer to the port (in case the weather conditions did cause problems.) The only "problem" at all was that we didn't get on board until 1:35 due to our plane arrival time and transfer so we were five minutes too late to enjoy the MDR lunch....We could deal with that :D and found Horizon Court worked out fine!

 

Talking about eating though....Let me insert here that the food on board these two weeks was about the best that we have had on our cruises. We ate most of our three daily meals in the MDR with anytime dining in the evening. Because we like to eat early, we came down at 5:00 for dinner and never had to wait at all to be seated (we liked to ""share" at a table with six and met so many interesting people this way.) However, we did notice that people who came in as we were leaving (around 6:15-6:30 usually) did sometimes have to wait with a "beeper", don't know how long or how often. But the food was SO good that we were happy to have the repeat menu the second week to have our favorites a second time and also to try some of the options not chosen the first week. My favorite dinners were the lobster/scampi on 2nd formal nights, the surf and turf, and the orange roughy but that's subjective. The Normal Love chocolate desserts (three different ones were served) were unbelievably decadent and we enjoyed all of our desserts. We did sometimes eat in the buffet for breakfast and lunch but only when time/excursions or port days with no MDR for lunch made that a good option. The buffet was just fine for people who enjoy buffets. We never had a meal in the International Cafe but did enjoy a few of their treats, especially the special chocolate one that was available each day. We ate at the grill once and it was ok, tried a slice of pizza and found it ok....never ate in the specialty restaurants so I can't help you there.

 

Our captain Nicolo Bommarco was fine except it was difficult to understand him when he spoke over the loud speaker. I have already forgotten the cruise director's name--he was adequate but nothing like some cruise directors who are always seen everywhere and really make themselves available. I enjoy line dancing and Carla was quite good although the sessions were short (about a half hour) and in much too crowded spaces.

The shows were just wonderful! The singers/dancers did three performances the first week (Bravo, Born to be Wild, and Piano Man, I think it was) and just the first two shows the second week when Princess had Entertainer of the Year performances which were great! The three contestants for this honor were A.J. Jamal (comedy), Alex Ramon (magic/illusion), and the winner Nathan Foley (singer/dancer/musician) and each did two shows and I recommend that you see them if you ever have the opportunity. We found that the 7:00 shows were easier to get into than the 8:15 and were told that the best ones to attend for good, last minute seating were the 10:00 shows. We tended to go about a half hour early to the 7:00 show and there were generally still seats available up until the last minute. In terms of movies, we just watched The Martian in the Princess Theatre which was very enjoyable.

 

In terms of activities, I guess it depends on what you enjoy. There were the usual trivia games and other games put on by staff members during the daytime and evening hours. There were the same art lectures/auctions. We did the cooking demonstration/galley tour the first week and found it to be quite informative as well as humorous. My husband went to the one real lecture which was the navigational one. The backstage tour was only the first week and we liked that. One sad thing for us was that even though it was a Caribbean cruise, the pools were much too cool for comfort and were mainly used by the children. We got into suits and tried the pools twice and ended up only in the hot tubs both times and gave up after that but were informed by others that the pools all stayed cold.

We enjoyed all our excursions. In Roaton, we did a Fun in the Sun" tour with Victor Bodden which was inexpensive and excellent with a tour around the island followed by two hours on the beautiful beach with lounge chair (we stayed in the coolish water the whole time so didn't really need the lounger) and bathrooms/dressing areas were good. We also enjoyed our included time at his monkey place where monkeys were happy to climb over us so we could take photos if desired.

 

In Cozumel we did San Gervasio Mayan Ruins & Chocolate Experience. I highly recommend this if you want to see Mayan ruins without the long hours of travel and potential choppy waters with the ferry that many have given bad reviews about on CC. The ruins aren't sensational but are a short bus ride away and are interesting to explore. The chocolate experience was a true demonstration of chocolate making from the beginning of cocoa beans to the end products which we got to sample--a very pleasant morning if you're not looking for a beach experience.

 

In Belize, we did the all day Altun Ha Mayan Ruyins, scenic river cruise & lunch excursion. By the way, we sprayed ourselves with insect spray in both Cozumel and Belize, none of which proved necessary at all as there was not a mosquito in sight. We really enjoyed the long river cruise where we did get to see howler monkeys and some other wildlife. What I especially appreciated was that although the day was warm and humid )mid 80's), the boat driver would go quite fast to get us cooled off in the breeze whenever he could, stopping only when a crocodile or other creature was sighted so we could see well. Oh, and the ruins were very good ones. We didn't climb to the top as some did, but we did climb about in several sections and got a good feel. The guides were very interesting too.

Our second week was not as lucky for ports and some cruisers were very disappointed. The worst part was that we were informed that we could not go to Key West, which we were all looking forward to, mostly because one of the ship's generators needed repair and although the ship was still fine, it just could not travel as fast and with some windy conditions, would have slowed us down too much. But, many of us were pleased with the compensation that Princess gave at the end, $50 each for missing the port and 15% of our cruise price as obc on a future cruise. Also, Princess Cays was cancelled because of weather (I know many cruisers don't like that port but we always enjoy it for swimming, snorkeling, and lunch) but at least there, Nassau was substituted so we did get a port. For Nasasu, we did a Paradise Island excursion which we thought would be pretty silly but ended up enjoying our hour's guided tour of the various aquariums in the Atlantis type settings around the resort plus exploring the area ourselves and finding lagoons with sharks, water turtles, and sting rays.

 

So the only one of the three planned ports we made that second week was Freeport. That was a bit of a disappointment since we had scheduled the Western Heritage and Snorkel Tour excursion, only to be sent a note that the company was canceling the snorkeling time but we could enjoy more time on the beach instead (we felt that was ridiculous when they weren't lowering the price to compensate) so cancelled that and changed to a kayaking/nature walk/beach excursion, kayaking through mangroves which was about a 90 minute 2-in-a-kayak ride and kept us working. The nature walk part of the excursion was nothing, only a few minutes of our guide talking about trees as we crossed a bridge which led to the beach part of the tour. The bad part was that we were never told that there were no bathrooms available for this several hour excursion except for two very primitive outhouses near the kayak section that were really bad, not even toilet paper and very dirty, but a necessity to use because of the length of the excursion. But the beach area was beautiful and it was fun wandering around the area although no one in our excursion swam since the water was cold and there was no place to change back into clothes. And the kayaking was fun. One has to make the best of any excursion and there is almost always enjoyment to be found!

 

In all, although there were occasional glitches, we had a great cruise and bought more future cruise credits even though we already have two more cruises booked this year. The crew was excellent, always working hard and always friendly with smiles (every crew member deserves the daily gratuity, that's for sure!) We used the laundry service and everything came out beautifully. The internet service worked well sometimes and not as well other times, pretty typical. The library has very few novels but a lot of people like myself brought books on board and used the book exchange shelf. We were very lucky with beautiful weather almost every day. Crew were continuously painting areas on the outside and cleaning on the inside. We found the ship to be cozy and comfortable although not spectacular like the Royal or Regal in terms of grandeur.

 

I'll try to come back here in case anyone has any questions.

 

Thanks for your review.

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...Talking about eating though....Let me insert here that the food on board these two weeks was about the best that we have had on our cruises...

 

We had exactly the same experience when we were on her last month 2/14-2/21. The food was fantastic in every venue - easily the best of any cruise we've been on. We're still talking about it.

 

Thanks for the review. What a great ship and crew.

Edited by gcvt
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Thanks for the pleasant honest review. It is more enjoyable to read than the ones where there is all complaints! You even managed to put the outhouse situation in to a positive spin! Thanks again! My husband and i will be on the Caribbean Princess in two week... Can't wait!

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We are leaving on CB on Sunday for a 10 day Caribbean Sampler (or whatever they call it!). We are doing the same Belize excursion, so thanks for the positive feedback. I am bringing my GoGirl (google it) just in case we have the issues you experienced in Freeport in any of our ports :D

 

I do have one question--can you tell me what it was like checking in at Houston? I have been told that we go thru security, then get our ship cards and there are lots of bathrooms. Can you confirm this? For some reason, when I travel my bladder get smaller :o!

 

Also, is there a 'wine table' to stop at and declare our wine? we are bringing 2 bottles and want to be sure we do this right--no visits to the naughty room!! There is a chance we will bring 2 extra bottles--is this handled the same way (i.e., go to wine table and pay corkage)? No issue paying, we just want to know what to expect since we will both be carrying up to 2 bottles of wine (or maybe just 2 for DH!!).

 

Thanks for any help

ML

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The worst part was that we were informed that we could not go to Key West, which we were all looking forward to, mostly because one of the ship's generators needed repair and although the ship was still fine, it just could not travel as fast and with some windy conditions, would have slowed us down too much.

 

What did they say about when the generator would be repaired?

 

Thanks

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We are leaving on CB on Sunday for a 10 day Caribbean Sampler (or whatever they call it!). We are doing the same Belize excursion, so thanks for the positive feedback. I am bringing my GoGirl (google it) just in case we have the issues you experienced in Freeport in any of our ports :D

 

I do have one question--can you tell me what it was like checking in at Houston? I have been told that we go thru security, then get our ship cards and there are lots of bathrooms. Can you confirm this? For some reason, when I travel my bladder get smaller :o!

 

Also, is there a 'wine table' to stop at and declare our wine? we are bringing 2 bottles and want to be sure we do this right--no visits to the naughty room!! There is a chance we will bring 2 extra bottles--is this handled the same way (i.e., go to wine table and pay corkage)? No issue paying, we just want to know what to expect since we will both be carrying up to 2 bottles of wine (or maybe just 2 for DH!!).

 

Thanks for any help

ML

 

Here's what our check-in looked like at around 1:00pm on 2/14. Empty! Bathrooms a plenty, and nicely appointed...for a cruise terminal. And this is a very nice cruise terminal. You should have no worries at all.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=379678&stc=1&d=1458019627

IMG_3740.jpg.46d66220de3cc028c906f794a1c4b890.jpg

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They didn't say when the generator would be repaired but we know that it was also broken on the previous cruise and those passengers also were taken to Nassau (not as far for the ship to go as the Cays) instead of Princess Cays. Those passengers were only told the night before while we were told about the change at the very beginning of that second week.

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What did they say about when the generator would be repaired?

 

Thanks

 

We are leaving on CB on Sunday for a 10 day Caribbean Sampler (or whatever they call it!). We are doing the same Belize excursion, so thanks for the positive feedback. I am bringing my GoGirl (google it) just in case we have the issues you experienced in Freeport in any of our ports :D

 

I do have one question--can you tell me what it was like checking in at Houston? I have been told that we go thru security, then get our ship cards and there are lots of bathrooms. Can you confirm this? For some reason, when I travel my bladder get smaller :o!

 

Also, is there a 'wine table' to stop at and declare our wine? we are bringing 2 bottles and want to be sure we do this right--no visits to the naughty room!! There is a chance we will bring 2 extra bottles--is this handled the same way (i.e., go to wine table and pay corkage)? No issue paying, we just want to know what to expect since we will both be carrying up to 2 bottles of wine (or maybe just 2 for DH!!).

 

Thanks for any help

ML

 

Our whole check-in was SO fast that there was no need to find a bathroom! From the time we entered the building until we walked onto the ship couldn't have been more than ten minutes! My DH does remember seeing at least one bathroom in that area though so I'm sure you'll have no problems. Remember, we didn't get to the port until about 1:20 and only know that everything went super fast at that time.

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I do have one question--can you tell me what it was like checking in at Houston? I have been told that we go thru security, then get our ship cards and there are lots of bathrooms. Can you confirm this? For some reason, when I travel my bladder get smaller :o!

 

 

There are not lots, but there is a bathroom in the big room that was pictured above.

 

It is along the wall on the left when you enter that room which is after security. You can go to it before checking in or after or both. Your choice.

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Our whole check-in was SO fast that there was no need to find a bathroom! From the time we entered the building until we walked onto the ship couldn't have been more than ten minutes! My DH does remember seeing at least one bathroom in that area though so I'm sure you'll have no problems. Remember, we didn't get to the port until about 1:20 and only know that everything went super fast at that time.

 

There are not lots, but there is a bathroom in the big room that was pictured above.

 

It is along the wall on the left when you enter that room which is after security. You can go to it before checking in or after or both. Your choice.

 

Thank you both for this, I am so relieved (pardon the pun :D). We are taking Princess shuttle, so will probably be there within your timeframe and this sounds great!

 

One less thing to worry about thx

ML

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Hi! We just returned last night from the 7-day Western Caribbean Feb. 28-March 6 followed by 7 day Eastern Caribbean March 6-13 cruises. As always, we had a wonderful time I hope some of what I write here might be helpful for others who are doing these last cruises from Bayport, Houston before Princess leaves this port.................

Nice review!

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Thank you for your review. Enjoyable reading

We are heading tomorrow Wednesday 16th from Queensland Australia for a 21 day cruise on the Caribbean Princess out of Houston on the 20th

Any holiday is what you make it. You have enjoyed yours and we will enjoy ours. All new ports for us, big learning curve.:):D:D

Edited by ekka49
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Here's what our check-in looked like at around 1:00pm on 2/14. Empty! Bathrooms a plenty, and nicely appointed...for a cruise terminal. And this is a very nice cruise terminal. You should have no worries at all.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=379678&stc=1&d=1458019627

 

We're sailing on April 10 and I'll show this photo to my DH so we don't arrive too early. On our 1/24/16 sailing, we stood in line for 1.5 hours (no sitting!) to get onboard the CP. Don't know what the issue was, but it was bad.

 

We agree about the food. Our first Princess cruise on the Grand had lousy food, but the CP food was very, very good. Also loved the happy hours at Club Fusion and Skywalkers.

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Also, is there a 'wine table' to stop at and declare our wine? we are bringing 2 bottles and want to be sure we do this right--no visits to the naughty room!! There is a chance we will bring 2 extra bottles--is this handled the same way (i.e., go to wine table and pay corkage)? No issue paying, we just want to know what to expect since we will both be carrying up to 2 bottles of wine (or maybe just 2 for DH!!).

ML

 

I don't mean to hijack, but will answer with our recent wine check-in experience for the CB out of Bayport, January 2016.

 

Yes, there is a wine table to the right as you exit the security/bag screen checkpoint. We were directed there when we picked our bag off the screening conveyor belt. If you take extra bottles, they will assign the corkage fee to your account at this time (you show your boarding pass).

 

BTW, we don't split the bottles between the two of us for carry-on. It all travels in one bag. You can have DH carry it all, and just go to the table with him. ;)

 

Just FYI, for the first time on this cruise we received a receipt for "6 bottles corkage paid" instead of individual corkage stamps, and were told to show the receipt to the waiter when we took a bottle to the MDR. I was worried that some of the waiters might still be expecting a corkage stamp on individual bottles, but no one seemed to have any problem with the receipt. In fact, no one kept a tally on the receipt either (we had ATD and different waitstaff every night). This rather surprised me, because it would have been easy to take our two "free" bottles to the MDR as well if we had been inclined to circumvent the system. We were not, and we did not.

 

I don't know, maybe they were keeping secretly keeping track behind the scenes. I didn't see any evidence of that, but then I wasn't looking for it.

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Thanks for posting your review. How was the turnaround day? Were there many people doing b2b cruises?

 

In-transit day was very easy. There was a big group of us (I'm bad at numbers but 100-200 maybe, purely guessing) and we met together and were gently led off the ship into the customs area, carrying both our 1st week cabin card and new 2nd week card. I timed it, just for fun, and from the moment we met until the moment we returned to the ship after the process was a total of 40 minutes--very good indeed! No confusion at all. And my favorite thing on in-transit day is that we don't have to do that afternoon's muster drill :D and are on board for the first MDR lunch which we missed the first week. Since we were on when some schools were having spring break, we did have about 200 children the second week but they were very well behaved, even in the MDR and at the shows. But, after we disembarked on Sunday, it was the "real" spring break time and there were supposed to be around 700 children coming on so I was not sorry that we were missing that one!

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We're sailing on April 10 and I'll show this photo to my DH so we don't arrive too early. On our 1/24/16 sailing, we stood in line for 1.5 hours (no sitting!) to get onboard the CP. Don't know what the issue was, but it was bad.

 

We agree about the food. Our first Princess cruise on the Grand had lousy food, but the CP food was very, very good. Also loved the happy hours at Club Fusion and Skywalkers.

 

We enjoyed the happy hours too, except the one day that they switched it from 4:00 to 3:00 and we weren't paying attention to the Patter. If you're gonna change the time of something as important as happy hour, you should really announce that over the PA system :p

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In-transit day was very easy. There was a big group of us (I'm bad at numbers but 100-200 maybe, purely guessing) and we met together and were gently led off the ship into the customs area, carrying both our 1st week cabin card and new 2nd week card.

 

Did you have the same cabin for both segments?

 

For the last couple of years Princess has been issuing a single cruise card for B2Bs if the passenger did not switch cabins for the 2nd segment.

Edited by caribill
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