mnocket Posted June 17, 2017 #1 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Makes me kinda unsettled that this kind of thing can actually happen. Neither ships radar saw the other? Unlikely. The only plausible explanation is that the bridge crew on both ships weren't paying attention for an extended period of time. Don't modern ships have collision avoidance alarms? If this could happen to a USN Destroyer, it's not out of the question that it could happen to a cruise ship. Makes one wonder. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-naval-vessel-collides-merchant-ship-southwest-japan-n773521 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendy Posted June 17, 2017 #2 Share Posted June 17, 2017 In the past 60 years the US Navy has had many more fatalities (completely removed from any hostile action) than the entire worldwide cruise industry. We should be thankful that they are not allowed to drive or operate cruise ships. They didn't see each other? Or neither one wanted to move from what they thought was their "given" route. Unbelievable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare John Bull Posted June 17, 2017 #3 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Hmmmm. Nothing in this report gives us a clue as to who or what was at fault, so why the theorising from thousands of miles away.:rolleyes: The fault of the destroyer captain? Or the container-ship captain? Or some other officer or a local pilot on either ship? Or even some other ship which baulked one of those vessels. A navigational or steering or other mechanical mal-function? The weather? We know it was dark, we don't know if it was foggy or stormy. So how about we learn more before hypothesising. Or better still, wait for the marine safety experts' report. JB :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare puppycanducruise Posted June 17, 2017 #4 Share Posted June 17, 2017 I won't speculate as to who is at fault. But, 7 sailors are missing. Praying for everyone involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothFlying Posted June 17, 2017 #5 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Hmmmm, One wonders, Where IS the OP: Navybanker when we need his honest and knowledgeable input when we need it. I hope they do find those missing sailors. I was always under the impression that actual collisions between ships, regardless of nations, were extremely rare, or possibly not given the news coverage. Mac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothFlying Posted June 17, 2017 #6 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Hmmmm, One wonders, Where IS the OP: Navybanker when we need his honest and knowledgeable input when we need it. I hope they do find those missing sailors. I was always under the impression that actual collisions between ships, regardless of nations, were extremely rare, or possibly not given any news coverage. Mac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biker@sea Posted June 17, 2017 #7 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Hmmmm. Nothing in this report gives us a clue as to who or what was at fault, so why the theorising from thousands of miles away.:rolleyes: The fault of the destroyer captain? Or the container-ship captain? Or some other officer or a local pilot on either ship? Or even some other ship which baulked one of those vessels. A navigational or steering or other mechanical mal-function? The weather? We know it was dark, we don't know if it was foggy or stormy. So how about we learn more before hypothesising. Or better still, wait for the marine safety experts' report. JB :) Size dictate's. The biggest ship has the right of way cuz it's the hardest to turn. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Essiesmom Posted June 17, 2017 #8 Share Posted June 17, 2017 If you relish reading these things, go to cargolaw.com. http://www.cargolaw.com/index-new.html Some very amusing incidents... EM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leaveitallbehind Posted June 17, 2017 #9 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Makes me kinda unsettled that this kind of thing can actually happen. Neither ships radar saw the other? Unlikely. The only plausible explanation is that the bridge crew on both ships weren't paying attention for an extended period of time. Don't modern ships have collision avoidance alarms? If this could happen to a USN Destroyer, it's not out of the question that it could happen to a cruise ship. Makes one wonder. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-naval-vessel-collides-merchant-ship-southwest-japan-n773521 This is pure speculation with no basis in fact at this point. The only ones who are in a position to know for sure what happened on these ships and provide a plausible explanation is their Captains - and I don't believe there has been any information released yet by either or them to the general public. How it was possible remains to be seen and will ultimately be a matter of fact and events, not speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare John Bull Posted June 17, 2017 #10 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Size dictate's. The biggest ship has the right of way cuz it's the hardest to turn. . Yes, and because it takes the longest time to change speed. But we don't know whether a decision not to give-way was the cause. Shoot the navy captain now, ask questions later ???????????? JB :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDawg Posted June 17, 2017 #11 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Yes, and because it takes the longest time to change speed. But we don't know whether a decision not to give-way was the cause. Shoot the navy captain now, ask questions later ???????????? JB :) I don't think the U.S. Navy investigators and senior command will be lurking here on CC in order to get information regarding the accident or find out what they should do with the Captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare John Bull Posted June 17, 2017 #12 Share Posted June 17, 2017 I don't think the U.S. Navy investigators and senior command will be lurking here on CC in order to get information regarding the accident or find out what they should do with the Captain. You misunderstand my post, Dawg ;) "Shoot now & ask questions later" isn't my suggestion to the Navy brass. It's my criticism of those on this thread who've already decided that the Navy captain was at fault. JB :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leaveitallbehind Posted June 17, 2017 #13 Share Posted June 17, 2017 You misunderstand my post, Dawg ;) "Shoot now & ask questions later" isn't my suggestion to the Navy brass. It's my criticism of those on this thread who've already decided that the Navy captain was at fault. JB :) Agree. Or are drawing assumptive conclusions as to cause without any factual information yet available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquahound Posted June 17, 2017 #14 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Size dictate's. The biggest ship has the right of way cuz it's the hardest to turn. Yes, and because it takes the longest time to change speed. They're both power driven vessels, offshore where neither was constrained by draft. That means vessel on the right has right-of-way. It has nothing to do with size. This is in no way a judgement of fault but at first glance....since the container ship has bow damage and the destroyer has starboard side damage...the indication is the container ship had right-of-way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOldBear Posted June 17, 2017 #15 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Another link to a story and discussion [some knowledge posters] is at the US Naval Institute 'news' site https://news.usni.org/2017/06/16/destroyer-uss-fitzgerald-collides-japanese-merchant-ship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruckerDave Posted June 17, 2017 #16 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Makes me kinda unsettled that this kind of thing can actually happen. Neither ships radar saw the other? Unlikely. The only plausible explanation is that the bridge crew on both ships weren't paying attention for an extended period of time. Don't modern ships have collision avoidance alarms? If this could happen to a USN Destroyer, it's not out of the question that it could happen to a cruise ship. Makes one wonder. /quote] The "only" plausible explanation....NO. There could have been a mechanical failure of some sort on the DDG. The container ship could have been on auto pilot with a minimum crew on the bridge at that hour. (it happened around 2-3am) while the Navy vessel would have had a full watch crew on the bridge, cic as well as topside lookouts. someone would have seen or noticed a large container ship of her starboard side and thus could have taken an emergency course change. (2 screws and 4 gas turbine engines those destroyers are fast and quite nimble. Especially compared to a cargo ship) Having been on a navy ship that had mechanical failures it is a viable reason. Just tossing that out there before some folks start blaming the crew of the navy ship before any facts are known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Hag Posted June 17, 2017 #17 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Another link to a story and discussion [some knowledge posters] is at the US Naval Institute 'news' sitehttps://news.usni.org/2017/06/16/destroyer-uss-fitzgerald-collides-japanese-merchant-ship Good article. Thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted June 17, 2017 #18 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Size dictate's. The biggest ship has the right of way cuz it's the hardest to turn. . Other things being equal, yes the less maneuverable has right of way-- but there are a number of other governing conditions: in an overtaking situation, the ship being passed has right of way, in a crossing situation the one to starboard of the other has right of way - among many others. It is pointless to speculate right now, given the lack of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDawg Posted June 17, 2017 #19 Share Posted June 17, 2017 You misunderstand my post, Dawg ;) "Shoot now & ask questions later" isn't my suggestion to the Navy brass. It's my criticism of those on this thread who've already decided that the Navy captain was at fault. JB :) But John, who cares what those people think? The Navy sure as shooting doesn't, so why should we? Those posters have every right to be judgmental twits whose opinions are meaningless.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquahound Posted June 17, 2017 #20 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Other things being equal, yes the less maneuverable has right of way-- Only if the ship had a declaration of Restricted Ability to Maneuver. It's very unlikely that a container ship at sea was restricted. But John, who cares what those people think? The Navy sure as shooting doesn't, so why should we? Those posters have every right to be judgmental twits whose opinions are meaningless.;) I don't think there's anything wrong with discussion. I don't agree with mnocket's "only plausible" comments but for those who have experience in this field, discussion is healthy. I was a Deck Watch Officer and I still conduct maritime investigations today, so I welcome healthy discussion...as long as its somewhat educated...on a topic like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDawg Posted June 17, 2017 #21 Share Posted June 17, 2017 I don't think there's anything wrong with discussion. I don't agree with mnocket's "only plausible" comments but for those who have experience in this field, discussion is healthy. I was a Deck Watch Officer and I still conduct maritime investigations today, so I welcome healthy discussion...as long as its somewhat educated...on a topic like this. I agree, have an educated discussion and just ignore the uneducated comments because in the end, those posters' uneducated comments are meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnocket Posted June 17, 2017 Author #22 Share Posted June 17, 2017 OK, having read the comments my "only plausible" comment reflects a degree of ignorance regarding the situation. That said, I was under the impression that modern seafaring was at the point where ship-ship collisions in open seas was virtually impossible - even if one ship had some sort of malfunction. Even if on autopilot, I had thought 1) The bridge would be manned and radar monitored, 2) The autopilot or a separate collision avoidance system would monitor radar and warn of a collision. Could two ships actually collide without either one being aware of the situation? If they were aware of the situation and in communication with each other, how is it possible that the collision couldn't be avoided? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruising cockroach Posted June 17, 2017 #23 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Just asking, do USN ships normally run with the AIS transponder off? If it was on, the container ship would (or should) have been alerted to the proximity of the navy ship (unless of course it wasn't AIS enabled.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybankerteacher Posted June 17, 2017 #24 Share Posted June 17, 2017 OK, having read the comments my "only plausible" comment reflects a degree of ignorance regarding the situation. That said, I was under the impression that modern seafaring was at the point where ship-ship collisions in open seas was virtually impossible - even if one ship had some sort of malfunction. Even if on autopilot, I had thought 1) The bridge would be manned and radar monitored, 2) The autopilot or a separate collision avoidance system would monitor radar and warn of a collision. Could two ships actually collide without either one being aware of the situation? If they were aware of the situation and in communication with each other, how is it possible that the collision couldn't be avoided? Obviously two ships can "actually collide"; Failure to avoid close approach; Failure to follow rules of the road; Failure to communicate intent; Failure to comprehend other vessel's intent; Mechanical failure; are just some of possible contributing causes. And, there can be any number of prior factors contributing to each of the above possible immediate causes. The old OOD's adage applies: "A collision at sea can ruin your whole day". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquahound Posted June 17, 2017 #25 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Just asking, do USN ships normally run with the AIS transponder off? If it was on, the container ship would (or should) have been alerted to the proximity of the navy ship (unless of course it wasn't AIS enabled.) Sometimes. They may even have been operating darkened ship and without nav lights depending on what maneuvers they were engaged in. BIG maybe though. I'm not suggesting that's what they were doing. One thing I do know is, ACX Crystal's AIS was on. You can see it on Marine Traffic. They had a consistent course and made a last minute turn to starboard, which accounts for there being more damage to their port bow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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